Thanks to everyone for the information here. I have added lemon juice & apple cider vinegar to my grocery list!
Vinegar?
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From what I understand it works with all the acids listed above. In the food industry it is mainly used as a combination of citric and malic acid. Citric acid costs quite a bit more than malic acid, so they cut some of the citric acid content and add malic acid as a replacement. By combining the acids they only need to use about 66% that original one acid recipe contained and its cheaper.
Pete
Maybe that's why Tart and Sour requires so much less to get a good effect. 5 drops per 30 mL seems to be the right amount on the ones I've added it to.
FaeriesFinest has some of the best fruit flavors I've tried but they tend to lose flavor rather quickly. I wonder if adding T&S or lemon would stabilize them more. Although it seems if it did they would know about it and already have it in their flavorings.
FaeriesFinest has some of the best fruit flavors I've tried but they tend to lose flavor rather quickly. I wonder if adding T&S or lemon would stabilize them more. Although it seems if it did they would know about it and already have it in their flavorings.
I don't think many people know about this unless they are actually flavorists in the food and beverage industry. It is incredibly hard to find this information anywhere on the internet. I think they hold this information close to their vests. Trade secrets and all that knowledge is power kind of thing. Some of the websites I find this stuff on have cobwebs in the corners!
Your observations about the Tart and Sour name is probably correct!
Tart would be the tart flavor that malic acid is known for.
Sour is probably citric acid because it is the most widely used acid.
When you combine them you get a pretty good sour flavor enhancer.
Great observation GoodDog!
Pete
FaeriesFinest is a flavoring company so they should know but I couldn't find any reference to it on their site.
I can tell you for certain that using ACV definitely helps tobaccos hold their flavor. As most of you know, I'm a Virginia tobacco addict. It's been my all day every day vape for 1 1/2 years. I do vape other flavors but only for short spurts now and then. I was having a problem with my Virginia losing it's flavor a week or so after mixing. Before I knew about the virtues of vinegar, I just started mixing very small batches that I knew could be vaped before the flavor crash. Since I've been using ACV in my mix, I can now make a bigger batch and the flavor remains true. I would think the acids would have the same effect with fruits but you'll never know until you try. Hope it works for ya!
I am wondering if Apple Cider Vinegar (right?) might contain a little bit of malic acid in addition to the acetic acid.
Skimming through all the fantastic material that Pete has discovered and so graciously shared with us, I am starting to understand why the only acid my primary DIY-vendor (a small Polish firm that originally specialised in raw materials for cosmetics, and is very "lab-oriented", doesn't even carry *any* vaping hardware or pre-mixed juices) carries is malic acid. That stuff seems seriously interesting for lots of stuff where you don't want even a hint of "citrus-y" or "bright sour".
(If/when I order some I am also tempted to see if I could use it for preserves or jams - I *like* the taste of boiled fruit, but both recipes and my own sense of taste mislead me into using too much sugar or boiling it to the point that I get some caramel-notes that I don't like. Maybe tart/woody apples ("food apples" as opposed to "eating apples") plus not too much sugar plus malic acid just barely boiled would result in the kind of apple sauce my grandmother used to make? It was like a good raw-puréd apple sauce, but with this very nice distinct boiled taste.)
I am also thinking that tartaric acid might useful - and a plus for that one is that it should be comparatively easy to find given that it is use in wine-making etc. (Maybe even the salt, cream of tartar, might be useful? Any chemically literate person who would like to be an angel and give a 101 on the salts of acid and their possible uses in cooking and other low-level appications?)
It is the "dry" quality of tartaric acid that makes me ..... my ears - so far I am exclusively dabbling with tobacco, and the balance within the triangle of dry-moist-sweet seems the biggest challenge right now.
Maybe some looks at sites where people press their own unpasteuerized apple juices would answer the malic acid question, and I have a sneaking suspicion that you are onto something Tona
I can't answer your question, and have no experience w/mixing tobacco flavors, but I can tell you that citric acid is used in canning ..especially tomatoes (fruits/jellies?). I bought some in the canning dept. of my supermarket but have been having enough success w/lemon juice and vinegar I've yet to try it.
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Citric or malic acid is used in almost everything in the supermarket.
Yep, I know. I was simply referencing the fact that citric acid, in powder form is commonly sold in the canning section of supermarkets...for the purpose of canning.
Here's another slightly random thought:
I was just reading an old thread How to get carbonation type flavor?, and then I thought of this thread, and the fact that carbonation is actually adding acidity to drinks - in Swedish the colloquial term for CO2 is even "Kolsyra" = carbonic acid (which wikipedia tells me is actually H2O+CO2=H2CO3, ie when you mix water with CO2 you get a solution that contains a bit of H2CO3, a lot of H2O and some CO2 in gas form =bubbles)
Now most carbonated drinks also contain other acids - citric (lemonade), tartaric (champagne and other sparkling wines), phosphoric (most colas), etc - most probably contain a mix of several, and I would be surprised if not malic acid and ascorbic acid featured in most.
But my point is this: might one part of creating a "soft drink" profile for a flavour be tweaking the acidity? Maybe even tweaking it a lot?
If you have ever tasted a soda concentrate, or even a soft-drink mix pre-carbonation you will know that this is usually quite impossibly sweet. I'm wondering if over-flavouring and over-sweetening* and THEN tweaking the acidity with the acid of your choice might be one part of achieving a good "soft drink" flavour?
The other part probably has to do with mouthfeel, and this might be extremely tricky to achieve - if you want a "fizzy" mouthfeel I can't really think of a simple way to achieve this. You would need to either utilize some kind of trick involving a reaction between saliva and the vapour, or find something that when vapourized tricks the tactile nerves in the mouth in some way. And this effect must also be very shortlived - we all know how unpleasant it is to get fizzy drinks up the nose or "in the wrong throat".
*I won't be experimenting with this - not only am I abnormally flavour sensitive, I don't particularly like soft drinks, and I especially don't like soft drinks that are very heavily carbonated. I'm the weird type of person for whom this implement is an easy sell... Must get one!
I was just reading an old thread How to get carbonation type flavor?, and then I thought of this thread, and the fact that carbonation is actually adding acidity to drinks - in Swedish the colloquial term for CO2 is even "Kolsyra" = carbonic acid (which wikipedia tells me is actually H2O+CO2=H2CO3, ie when you mix water with CO2 you get a solution that contains a bit of H2CO3, a lot of H2O and some CO2 in gas form =bubbles)
Now most carbonated drinks also contain other acids - citric (lemonade), tartaric (champagne and other sparkling wines), phosphoric (most colas), etc - most probably contain a mix of several, and I would be surprised if not malic acid and ascorbic acid featured in most.
But my point is this: might one part of creating a "soft drink" profile for a flavour be tweaking the acidity? Maybe even tweaking it a lot?
If you have ever tasted a soda concentrate, or even a soft-drink mix pre-carbonation you will know that this is usually quite impossibly sweet. I'm wondering if over-flavouring and over-sweetening* and THEN tweaking the acidity with the acid of your choice might be one part of achieving a good "soft drink" flavour?
The other part probably has to do with mouthfeel, and this might be extremely tricky to achieve - if you want a "fizzy" mouthfeel I can't really think of a simple way to achieve this. You would need to either utilize some kind of trick involving a reaction between saliva and the vapour, or find something that when vapourized tricks the tactile nerves in the mouth in some way. And this effect must also be very shortlived - we all know how unpleasant it is to get fizzy drinks up the nose or "in the wrong throat".
*I won't be experimenting with this - not only am I abnormally flavour sensitive, I don't particularly like soft drinks, and I especially don't like soft drinks that are very heavily carbonated. I'm the weird type of person for whom this implement is an easy sell... Must get one!
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Coca Cola contains phosphorus acid. I wouldn't recommend trying it though.
Did you need to quote everything just to challenge my terminology???
(phosphoric acid vs phosphorus acid - I have no idea exactly what/which of what looks like a biggish family is used in colas)
It's not a challenge. I was just SAYING what Coca Cola uses to give their beverage more fizzy taste....
LOL, yeah but mines prettier, and I found the PH levels for Glycerin and PG
heheheheDan
Whoo hoo! This thread attracted the DIY Superstar! Do tell Dan, do you use any additives to lower PH? If so, what works best for you? I'll be stalking this thread even more now waiting for your reply. (if that's even possible as I haven't missed a new post here since it began). Thank you for the graph but most of all, thank you for the calculator that I live by.
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