Vinegar?

[Tona Aspsusa]

Nice post, Fernand, that you.

And it's maybe worth saying that anything but small departures from around a neutral or slightly basic pH is likely to affect nicotine absorption. Nicotine as a free base is what's best absorbed, and a more acidic juice, in addition to being irritating to throat/lungs, is going to contain more e.g. Nicotine Citrate instead.

It is my impression from reading through a lot of very chemist-dominated threads (and understanding about 60% of it) that pH-regulating the juice to the point that some of the nicotine is bound in salts doesn't really affect the effect of the nicotine. The idea being that when the juice is heated the salts break up and the nicotine is released, so while the amount of free base nicotine in your atty or cart or tank might be less in a more acidic juice, once it is in your mouth in the form of vapour the nicotine content is the same as what you'd get from a juice with all free base nicotine.

At least that is my understanding of the speculations from the actual chemists, some of whom says they have been in contact with vendors who routinely acidify their liquids for better shelf life and to minimize smell (the salts don't oxidize, so no colourtint and no smell).

 

[VaVaunt]

You could always get it on ebay for cheap or ecigexpress sells it premixed under flavorwest sour . Theres also tart and sour which you can get on ebay for a little over 3.00 shipped .

I'd like to thank you for the links. I'm new to this, and following the thread. Getting links to suppliers is great for noobs to this kind of thing You guys rock!

 

[Lyndagayle]

I've started adding my vinegar/lemon juice to my nic base (100 mg.) before I add the PG, VG and flavoring. It takes away all of the smell of the nic liquid. My nic base is pretty much odorless until it starts to age and then it begins to smell a little "musty." Adding the acids takes all of the smell away.

 

[GoodDog]

I've started adding my vinegar/lemon juice to my nic base (100 mg.) before I add the PG, VG and flavoring. It takes away all of the smell of the nic liquid. My nic base is pretty much odorless until it starts to age and then it begins to smell a little "musty." Adding the acids takes all of the smell away.

Do you do this if it's being used a little at a time? I was thinking about using it in my 250 ml (48mg) bottle that I syringe from. Been wondering if it would preserve it better and help prevent it from turning.

 

[Fernand]

EcigExpress also sells straight Malic Acid powder, $1.99 for 20 grams. At 1 g in 10 ml of PG (1/10) to make a "sour flavoring", that's about 10 cents a bottle, assuming you have some PG anyway. One to four drops of that per 10 ml of juice you're mixing works pretty well. Above that level makes me cough, which is (in my mind anyway) a clear signal to go no further.

http://www.ecigexpress.com/diy-supplies-powders-and-crystals-c-43_92/malic-acid-powder-p-1087

 

[bluegrasslover]

Well, I haven't been taking ph reading or anything but I did mix up a batch of citric acid @ 1/2 tsp per 10ml distilled water. I *think* that's what was decided in an earlier post to keep everyone on basically the same strength. Any way, I mixed up some TPA sweet tart a couple nights ago. I ran out so I ended up with about 13% sweet tart (I usually go to 20% but have tried lots of other percentages) and 1 drop of the citric acid and 1 drop stevia. I don't know how much that 1 drop did but it's my best sweet tart to date.

 

[ToweKnee]

Incredible thread guys this is some awesome info. Just wanted to say thanks for all the work you guys are doing on this.

 

[Str8V8ping]

Well, I haven't been taking ph reading or anything but I did mix up a batch of citric acid @ 1/2 tsp per 10ml distilled water. I *think* that's what was decided in an earlier post to keep everyone on basically the same strength. Any way, I mixed up some TPA sweet tart a couple nights ago. I ran out so I ended up with about 13% sweet tart (I usually go to 20% but have tried lots of other percentages) and 1 drop of the citric acid and 1 drop stevia. I don't know how much that 1 drop did but it's my best sweet tart to date.

Yea sweet tart would be probably the most benifial type of ejuice to citric acid .

 

[Str8V8ping]

I've started adding my vinegar/lemon juice to my nic base (100 mg.) before I add the PG, VG and flavoring. It takes away all of the smell of the nic liquid. My nic base is pretty much odorless until it starts to age and then it begins to smell a little "musty." Adding the acids takes all of the smell away.

Thats a good idea . Im afraid to do it on my full bottles . Ill try it on my smaller bottles though . Im not sure if i want citric in everything just yet . Im wondering how much it adds to the shelf life of the nic .

 

[Tracker II]

Incredible thread guys this is some awesome info. Just wanted to say thanks for all the work you guys are doing on this.

That goes for me too. I probably would have given up on DIY'ing a long time ago if not for all the talented people here who are kind enough to share their ideas. A heartfelt thank you to you all.

 

[Lyndagayle]

Do you do this if it's being used a little at a time? I was thinking about using it in my 250 ml (48mg) bottle that I syringe from. Been wondering if it would preserve it better and help prevent it from turning.

Thus far, I've added it as I mix. I too have contemplated dousing the entire bottle but changed my mind because I use lemon juice for fruits and vinegar for tobaccos and bakery type flavors. I don't want the entire bottle treated with LJ and find myself wishing I had used vinegar so for now, mixing as I go is working.

 

[Fernand]

... and nobody's coughing? Where are we at drop-wise? 'Cause when I added 4 drops 15% malic acid in PG to 10 ml of a mellow VG based juice, the pH had barely shifted and it wasn't even sour, the flavor was more pronounced and it had more throat hit alright, or should I say death rattle? Vaped a bit of it, and pretty soon I was coughing lightly, and regretting it. 15% is about a "half teaspoon" (1.5 grams) in 10 ml. PA sells a "sour" that's 20% Malic acid in PG, they've gone up from 10% on user request, so 15% isn't especially strong. Is 4 drops at the extreme end of what people here are trying?

 

[Str8V8ping]

I dont think many have tried malic acid in powder form yet . I have been using tart and sour (citric/malic) and have been using about 3drops per 5ml or 4-5 drops per 10ml . I havent noticed much TH or any coughing . I dont know what percents of citric/malic are in tart and sour though .

 

[stashbldr]

... and nobody's coughing? Where are we at drop-wise? 'Cause when I added 4 drops 15% malic acid in PG to 10 ml of a mellow VG based juice, the pH had barely shifted and it wasn't even sour, the flavor was more pronounced and it had more throat hit alright, or should I say death rattle? Vaped a bit of it, and pretty soon I was coughing lightly, and regretting it. 15% is about a "half teaspoon" (1.5 grams) in 10 ml. PA sells a "sour" that's 20% Malic acid in PG, they've gone up from 10% on user request, so 15% isn't especially strong. Is 4 drops at the extreme end of what people here are trying?

If I add a few drops of apple cider vinegar to my juice it makes me cough .. not a constant big cough but a little one that happens right after I exhale.

 

[GoodDog]

I haven't tried vinegar yet since I had Tart & Sour on hand, but when I eat something with vinegar in it I have a little cough, almost like it takes my breath away, with each bite for a moment. I always wondered why that was and now I'll reconsider trying vinegar...thanks.

 

[Fernand]

PA sells that 20% Malic acid in PG, the Tart and Sour is Malic and Citric in PG, the vinegar is Acetic acid in water, the lemon is mostly Citric acid in water. I rather think it's all weak acids, and wondering if anyone has noticed specific things about specific acids, which I'd sort of doubt at first thought. But I'm quite sure that anything but a minute amount, at least on the Malic acid, is a no-no. When they tweak pH for the good juices, it's got to be subtle. Maybe Acetic acid is different, maybe not. Do you cough?

The way I got interested in the "Diacetyl Issue" was by noticing a specific little dry cough I always got vaping with certain PA flavors, I started looking into it, and, lo and behold, those all had Diacetyl or Acetoin or Acetylpropionyl in them. That's when I read all the papers and clinical reports, the lung transplants, the deaths. The fact a lot of people vape 25% buttery flavoring and love that yummy taste is scary, but least there's more information there now for the reading. FA labels some flavoring as "not suitable for vaping". I take a delayed coughing seriously, as a signal from the biosystem, trying to eliminate an irritant. I don't mean the immediate "whoa" cough on a strong hit, that's self-explanatory, you're trying to survive. I'm talking about that little dry cough and tickle that persists afterwards. If I feel that, I get off that train but quick.

No doubt a little (Malic) acid boosts flavor perception, adds some throat hit. And? I'm fine without those. But then again, I'm weird. I think PG tastes like industrial waste, and I don't see any reason to go from a bad habit - sucking on a back yard leaf fire in a paper wrapper - to something relatively benign, and then spoil it. An all VG vape with 5% food flavorings and a little nicotine feels good. No churning stomach, no dry cough, no dry mucous membranes, no industrial taste, no tired feeling. So far it seems like Malic acid, anyway, like Capsicum, just feels wrong, I'm coughing. I'll try Acetic.

 

[pinellaspete]

All the acids that we are discussing, citric, malic, tartaric and acetic are all very safe and used in almost everything that we eat or drink. If you were to eat any fruit or vegetable grown naturally by Mother Nature it would contain citric, malic and tartaric acid. Acetic acid has been used for thousands of years by humans to preserve food.

If you look waaaaay back in this thread you will find a couple of links to Room Vaporizer websites. They recommend adding vinegar to the water inside the vaporizer to help clear your congestion. Perhaps the vinegar is good for you! It is helping to clear the congestion in your airways.

Sweet Tarts and some of the other extremely sour candies contain large amounts of citric and malic acid. That's what makes them sour.

I have done the research on these acids and all I find is that they are perfectly safe. I don't encounter any information that even suggests that something could be amiss with using these acids.

 

[Bostonsnboxers]

All the acids that we are discussing, citric, malic, tartaric and acetic are all very safe and used in almost everything that we eat or drink. If you were to eat any fruit or vegetable grown naturally by Mother Nature it would contain citric, malic and tartaric acid. Acetic acid has been used for thousands of years by humans to preserve food.

If you look waaaaay back in this thread you will find a couple of links to Room Vaporizer websites. They recommend adding vinegar to the water inside the vaporizer to help clear your congestion. Perhaps the vinegar is good for you! It is helping to clear the congestion in your airways.

Sweet Tarts and some of the other extremely sour candies contain large amounts of citric and malic acid. That's what makes them sour.

I have done the research on these acids and all I find is that they are perfectly safe. I don't encounter any information that even suggests that something could be amiss with using these acids.

I don't think referencing the fact that we can consume something is too very reassuring ...our stomachs are pretty tough and contain acids themselves...I am however impressed by their use in vaporizers. One of the reasons I decided it was ok to vape pg

 

[Tona Aspsusa]

But it is always worth keeping in mind that "Perfectly safe" doesn't necessarily mean one specific individual won't have a sensitivity.

White wine is usually perfectly safe, but I know someone who can't drink even half a glass without sneezing for half an hour. Red wine is usually perfectly safe, but many people get migraines. Ditto chocolate. And then we have the various allergies and metabolic sensitivities: citrus, nuts, lactose, mushrooms and shellfish (yes, it's the same rather rare sugar in both), fish, nightshades...
And let's not even talk about Sodium in its various forms - an absolutely necessary element for life, but some people must limit their intake to keep their blood pressure in check, while other people must be very liberal with the salt shaker for the same reason.

So "perfectly safe" will never mean that no one could ever have any kind of adverse reaction to something. It only means that in an overwhelming majority of people the overwhelming majority of the time, there will be no problems. And usually that even when there are problems, those problems will not be serious in a life-threatening way.

When someone (here or some other place) says something is "perfectly safety" or you read that something is GRAS, it does NOT mean that the correlation between ingesting/using/being near it and feeling crappy in some way that you have observed is not true or "all in your head". It only means that there are neither statistically significant nor alarming enough reports of adverse effects.

And since I am ranting again, allow me to trot out my two favourite hobby-horses:

1. Correlation is not causation. Correlation is not causation. Correlation is not causation.
Journalists love to write stories about how this or that "is linked to <death and horrible disease>". And very often they will slip in their writing and not just imply but claim a causation. It is almost never that simple.
But we tend to believe that butter/margarine/canola oil/coffee/ACV/billberries/carrots/salt either causes disease or promises us eternal health. It is NEVER that simple.

2. Statistical truths about risks are meaningless when applied to one (1) individual. Meaningless. You get these very interesting links between food/behaviours/environment and health outcomes ONLY by looking at fairly large populations.
My health gets no better if I avoid overly salted food (in fact it gets worse), but if 10 000 people ate as much salt as I do, quite a few of them would probably need medication for hypertension, and a very few of them might suffer a stroke. So the recommendation is "eat less salt". But for *me*, as an individual, that recommendation just happens to be bad, noticeably bad (though luckily not dangerously bad, just annoyingly bad).

 

[pinellaspete]

I agree with you Tona, we have a saying here in the USA:

"Figures lie and liars figure." It means the numbers are not always correct and can be interpenetrated in different ways.

I'm sorry I was also standing on my soapbox. I just get depressed when after all the work we did researching and testing these acids and someone just jumps in and relates these acids to known cancer causing ingredients. "My throat gets the same itch as when I use cancer causing chemicals." I mean really.....No research or anything, but has the nerve to relate them to cancer causing chemicals! He wasn't saying they were just irritants.

Oh well...We all have the right to speak.

Pete