Was issued a citation for vaping by the NYC MTA (Subway)

[pherik]

Some clarification regarding the situation:

The MTA officer (not police officer) was upwind of me, sitting in a booth approximately 40 yards away. There were a few other people on the platform, with no one standing less than 20 feet from me. The officer who claimed the smell bothered him was NOT downwind of my vaping. Therefore he wouldn't have been able to smell the 555 flavor I was vaping. No one on the platform made any mention of the fact they were bothered by my vaping, or asked me to stop. I also vape regularly on the platform while waiting for trains.

The officer left his booth and approached me and asked to see the device, at which point I obliged. He asked me use my pv and exhale some vapor so he could 'smell' what it was that was being exhausted into the air. This seemed to imply he wanted to verify it was not another illegal substance. After verifying he was not entrapping me I took one vape and exhaled so he could smell the vapor. At that point he proceeded to write me a citation and claimed the smell bothered him.

All here are making valid points. However, as some have noted, I am inquiring as to the legality of vaping. Clearly NY state law defines smoking in terms which do NOT describe the act (vaping) for which I was responsible for. Therefore I feel I am not guilty of the citation and will probably attend the adjudication hearing. It is my legal right to defend myself.

You are correct, it is your right as an american and I hope it goes well for you. I would contact a "free consultation" lawyer to find out what you might need to bring to enhance your chances. Just a suggestion, I really do hope it goes well for you.

 

[BlkWolfMidnight]

And here we go again...
What ever happened to being good stewards for the E-Cig community. Ok, so were all ok with vaping, we are fine with the smells that it produces and the vapor production...ever wonder what someone else may think of it. Do you even care what someone else thinks of it?.
Yah, you got a citation, did you ask if you could do it. The property does not belong to you therefore you must follow all the rules and regulations that go along with it. By not asking I'm fairly sure that now it’s going to leave a bad opinion of everyone that vapes in that officers mind, maybe we will get lucky and word won't travel. Maybe it will, maybe it will go up to the city console that vapors are ignorant and don't care about others opinions. What will happen then?.
God forbid someone is allergic to X flavoring your vaping, some people are set of by smell alone. Would this look good, no..prob. not seeing as you didn't ask for prior permission to vape in the location.
So, a citation isn't all that bad, as for all vapors I beg of you'll on hands and knees be a good steward and ask before assuming its ok. The FDA is just waiting for that one juicy bone to drop and run with it...let’s not give them another reason to put us down..
As for the laws concerning your area, they are so flexable that you would have to ask...they have been changing quickly as of late it would seem.

 

[jeenam]

The FDA isn't going to decide one way or the other regarding electronic cigarettes based on the safety aspects - read up on how aspartame became legal if you think their regulatory decisions are not about $$$.

 

[pherik]

The FDA isn't going to decide one way or the other regarding electronic cigarettes based on the safety aspects - read up on how aspartame became legal if you think their regulatory decisions are not about $$$.

Oh we all know 99% of the government is paid off by large corporations and other such groups. Maybe we can all pitch in and get ecigs information shifted entirely in our direction and show that it not harmful at all to anyone anywhere at any time.

 

[meli.]

Hi Jeenam, does your citation state you were smoking using an electronic device? Or does it just state you were smoking?

 

[jeenam]

Hi Jeenam, does your citation state you were smoking using an electronic device? Or does it just state you were smoking?

meli. the citation states simply smoking. I asked the officer to specify in the citation that I was using an electronic personal vaporizer but he ignored that request. I asked him multiple times for this.

 

[jazon1]

personally i vape just about anywhere i am as do others all around this state the malls here are "no smoking" but there are kiosks all around the mall with people selling e-cigs with crowds of people standing there vaping as well.

i am yet to find a store or other public place were anyone has had a problem with me vaping other then one guy who worked at best buy who informed me that"inhaling water vapor is bad for your health"
i went on to inform him he did not know what a E-cig was and that he was miss informed and that it was not "water" and that in his way of thinking he was risking his own life every time he took a hot shower, needless to say he dropped it after that lol

now keep in mind i do agree that you should respect other people's right to not have to inhale something we have not proven to be 100% safe yet and even in places were it is clearly allowed i wont vape if someone is close to me,it just dont feel right.

 

[meli.]

I've been searching and found the only mention of 'smoking' on the mta.info Rules of Conduct, Section 1050.7, Disorderly conduct,
No person on or in any facility or conveyance shall:
smoke or carry an open flame or lighted match, cigar, cigarette, pipe or torch;

I cannot find the definition of Smoking anywhere on the mta site.

Doesn't look like you broke any rules under their definitions according to their breakdown of fines regarding your specific case.

 

[Racehorse]

meli. the citation states simply smoking. I asked the officer to specify in the citation that I was using an electronic personal vaporizer but he ignored that request. I asked him multiple times for this.

BTW, I do support you in fighting this, simply because you were not smoking, as you say, so the citation is incorrect.

 

[BlkWolfMidnight]

I do agree with you on this, right is right and wrong is wrong. I'm still not though supportive of the " I vape therefore I do it anywhere" policy that seems to be everyone I've run in to this far.
As with the "Water Vapor" incident most people have not been exposed to an E-Cig yet, so might as well make it a plesent experience.
I myself may or may not vape in a mall, that's fine however its not something I feel comfortable with doing...besides if I do hang out with the Analog smokers then usually can talk to one or more of them and educate..maybe save a life, you never know .

 

[Buggs5347]

Some clarification regarding the situation:

The MTA officer (not police officer) was upwind of me, sitting in a booth approximately 40 yards away. There were a few other people on the platform, with no one standing less than 20 feet from me. The officer who claimed the smell bothered him was NOT downwind of my vaping. Therefore he wouldn't have been able to smell the 555 flavor I was vaping. No one on the platform made any mention of the fact they were bothered by my vaping, or asked me to stop. I also vape regularly on the platform while waiting for trains.

The officer left his booth and approached me and asked to see the device, at which point I obliged. He asked me use my pv and exhale some vapor so he could 'smell' what it was that was being exhausted into the air. This seemed to imply he wanted to verify it was not another illegal substance. After verifying he was not entrapping me I took one vape and exhaled so he could smell the vapor. At that point he proceeded to write me a citation (for smoking, specifically) and claimed the smell bothered him.

All here are making valid points. However, as some have noted, I am inquiring as to the legality of vaping. Clearly NY state law defines smoking in terms which do NOT describe the act (vaping) for which I was responsible for. Therefore I feel I am not guilty of the citation and will probably attend the adjudication hearing. It is my legal right to defend myself.

So, you go to the hearing, dressed nicely, and calmly explain the situation and that you had no idea you were doing anything wrong. You say that you feel badly about the whole situation and then state that you haven't smoked a cigarette since whatever date is accurate. Describe the events just as you told them in your quoted post. Then state that you wouldn't have used the ecig if you knew you were doing anything wrong and that as far as you understood; ecig use is not considered smoking since there is no combustion and no tobacco. Reiterate that you never used it when people were standing close, in case anyone might be bothered by it. And, you also state that if the officer had simply advised you to cease using it, you would have readily complied.

I believe the MTA officer will also have to appear. Could be a chance he won't show up and in that case, the ticket will be dismissed.

Take your gear and juice and literature with you in case they ask or you feel a need to show them what it is.

 

[alank]

Oh well I suppose you could plea it down but you won't get around the Tri-state regions love for collecting fines. You live and/or work there and you know the culture. What do you see as the real likelihood that you are going to get off on a technicality.
I was out hanging with friends and took a semi stealthy toot in the bar and one friend was about to give me a lecture about lighting up in a bar.
Now me I was goofing around with friends trying get a rise out of them. I did not persist in teasing them but it did give me an opportunity to bring up the topic of vaping. I gave them the full rigamarole on it being vapor and not smoke. So do I tell you this to brag about how I got away with this... perhaps.
But I was also using it as an opportunity to educate and to get used to seeing me vape. I seem to be doing alright in slowly and subtly getting the word out on the subject and most folks where I work seem to be accepting it and not running off to complain about me.
I imagine I could get a complaint and it may come suddenly and seemingly out of nowhere. I find it entertaining to talk about and educate folks concerning the topic of vaping. I really do try to not make a spectacle of myself on a general basis and mostly just keep vaping stealthy and subtle.
I really do try to be an ambassador for vaping mostly because I want to be able to continue vaping with less impediments to doing so.
And vaping can be such a great conversation starter, one woman wanted to know more because she wants her mother to take it up in place of smoking analogs.

 

[P1BradC]

I still just only vape at home or designated smoking areas. I just can't handle the ignorance of 99% of people. Bless you you guys for fighting it though.

 

[Plumes.91]

are there really places in america where you can't walk down the street and smoke a cigarette?? Reading through this thread, I've seen someone say that it is illegal to smoke outside of a designated smoking area in new jersey? So you can't walk down a sidewalk smoking? You can't smoke at a bus stop? Holy crap I never knew how crazy the smoking bans were getting.

To the OP: Since nicotine is extracted from tobacco, a lot of places do consider it a tobacco product and there-fore they lump it in with smoking bans so that smokers will not become agitated/etc if they see you vaping in a non-smoking area.

 

[alank]

Oh we all know 99% of the government is paid off by large corporations and other such groups. Maybe we can all pitch in and get ecigs information shifted entirely in our direction and show that it not harmful at all to anyone anywhere at any time.

I was sitting here relaxing, sipping coffee, vaping, posting here and heard my first vaping commercial on the radio just a little while ago. It was a commercial for Njoy so who knows with some corporate commercial interests involved the situation could eventuallly improve. Still think vapers should be polite and not come off as rabble, ruffians or difficult people to be taken to task at every given moment...

 

[alank]

are there really places in america where you can't walk down the street and smoke a cigarette?? Reading through this thread, I've seen someone say that it is illegal to smoke outside of a designated smoking area in new jersey? So you can't walk down a sidewalk smoking? You can't smoke at a bus stop? Holy crap I never knew how crazy the smoking bans were getting.

To the OP: Since nicotine is extracted from tobacco, a lot of places do consider it a tobacco product and there-fore they lump it in with smoking bans so that smokers will not become agitated/etc if they see you vaping in a non-smoking area.

Yeah White Plains, NY, I mentioned this a day or two ago in another topic.

 

[mightymen]

Here is part of MTA Rules of Conduct
"Note the the word smoke and or"
" If One smokes a e cig then he/she has broken the MTA Rules of Conduct"
The issue here, is smoke or vapor expelled from a e cig.

Section 1050.7

Disorderly conduct.

No person on or in any facility or conveyance shall:

smoke or carry an open flame or lighted match, cigar, cigarette, pipe or torch;

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Smoke particles are an aerosol (or mist) of solid particles and liquid droplets that are close to the ideal range of sizes for Mie scattering of visible light. This effect has been likened to three-dimensional textured privacy glass[citation needed] — a smoke cloud does not obstruct an image, but thoroughly scrambles it.

Smoke - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sorry but, According to above you were smoking.

**** But then again, ON A COLD NIGHT If you produce vapor from your mouth & EXPELL IT ARE YOU SMOKING ?
Then one could be braken the law just by (smoking)breathing!
This is a argument for your case, we would all be braken the law.

 

[alank]

I still just only vape at home or designated smoking areas. I just can't handle the ignorance of 99% of people. Bless you you guys for fighting it though.

Good plan if you haven't got the time or are just not in the mood to discuss the topic with a non-smoker/non-vaper.

 

[Plumes.91]

as far as I know, there are no solid particles in our vapor and in most dictionaries there is a clear difference made between vapor and smoke. wikipidia is not an official dictionary anyway. he was not smoking. smoking results from the combustion of carbon based molecules. there is no combustion in vaping or convection vaping.

 

[Buggs5347]

Here is part of MTA Rules of Conduct
"Note the the word smoke and or"
" If One smokes a e cig then he/she has broken the MTA Rules of Conduct"
The issue here, is smoke or vapor expelled from a e cig.

Section 1050.7

Disorderly conduct.

No person on or in any facility or conveyance shall:

smoke or carry an open flame or lighted match, cigar, cigarette, pipe or torch;

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Smoke particles are an aerosol (or mist) of solid particles and liquid droplets that are close to the ideal range of sizes for Mie scattering of visible light. This effect has been likened to three-dimensional textured privacy glass[citation needed] — a smoke cloud does not obstruct an image, but thoroughly scrambles it.

Smoke - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sorry but, According to above you were smoking.

Sorry, but Wikipedia is often not an accurate source. Plus, as I recall from a few visits to New York and other large cities, the citizens are routinely subjected to vapor (steam) coming out of vents in the sidewalks. ( it isn't always a pleasant smell, either) Is that smoking? I dunno, maybe that doesn't happen anymore. It just came to my mind from visits years ago.