Was issued a citation for vaping by the NYC MTA (Subway)

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EddardinWinter

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Won't argue and do respect your position. My earlier post in this thread described where I was semi-stealthily vaping in public last night in a bar. I carefully took a hit in a hidden way and expelled the vape which caught a friend off guard. She had that bug eyed look of OMG what are doing. The look was hilarious to see but I quickly cleared up what exactly I was doing. Another woman sitting with her group of friends later inquired about my PV. She had an interest in getting her mother to consider vaping, I gave her a few web reference including this site. I don't think my discretion in when and where is all that wimpy, just carefully non-confrontational maybe even passive-aggressive. But considering I was in the city where they can give you tickets for smoking on the sidewalk I don't think I am conceding. The truth is vaping will likely never be considered safe just safer than tobacco smoke.
One thing though if get asked not to continue vaping, even when trying to fly under the radar, I usually concede politely. I do have the option of leaving and moving onto friendlier territory.
Vape on :vapor:

I intended to compliment your position, not contradict it. I must say that post certainly evoked a great deal of reaction, which is not necessarily a bad thing. I certainly did not mean to imply wimpy-ness. I would not call you a wimp to your face, so I will not call you one on a post. Please accept my clarification.

I understand we must choose our battles. It is easier for me to be bold in VA than a person in New York City. I recognize that and embrace that fact. I only mean to say, pick your battles wisely, but when you do, make a stand like Thermopylae.
 

Buggs5347

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I understand we must choose our battles. It is easier for me to be bold in VA than a person in New York City. I recognize that and embrace that fact. I only mean to say, pick your battles wisely, but when you do, make a stand like Thermopylae.

You make a very good point. What can be accepted in some localities may not in others.
 

Placebo Effect

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Do not pay the fine. Challenge it in court.

For one, there's a good chance the MTA officer won't even show up, and if that happens the ticket will usually be dismissed.

Virginia's Attorney General has made clear that e-cigs aren't included in VA's smoke-free law. The definition of "smoking" is similar to NY and NYC's law http://www.oag.state.va.us/Opinions and Legal Resources/Opinions/2010opns/10-029-Peace.pdf

The Iowa Department of Health has also made clear that e-cigarettes aren't covered under their state's smoke-free law -- Legal To Smoke Electronic Cigarettes Indoors - News, Weather and Sports for Sioux City, IA: KCAU-TV.com

And why would the New York City Department of Health and Mental Hygiene poll people on their feelings on banning e-cigarettes indoors from 2010 - 2012 if they were already covered under the law? http://www.nyc.gov/html/doh/downloads/pdf/smoke/public-opinion-survey-wave-2.pdf (For the record, 2/3 of NYC residents polled opposed banning e-cigarettes indoors)
 

alank

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Please accept my clarification.

I understand we must choose our battles. It is easier for me to be bold in VA than a person in New York City. I recognize that and embrace that fact. I only mean to say, pick your battles wisely, but when you do, make a stand like Thermopylae.

I understand you fine and thank you for appreciating the differences that we all might face being fellow vapers from one locality to another.
It is tough but I fight the fight in what I perceive as the best way for my situation. My greatest hope is that more non-smokers and non-vapers gain tolerance for the activity of vaping and not allow it to be perceived as another form of smoking. I try to maintain a tolerant demeanor with the intolerant. Sometimes that works and sometimes it does not. I did have one episode where I was politely taken to task at work. But later I heard no more and didn't actually stop. Perhaps they found my productivity to be pretty good or better with a little stealth vape here and there. My extra PV or at least an extra battery or two are always on my desk. I vape they know it I am not hiding it. You are correct we should never hide it.
Cheers keep up the good fight and let's not let them impede us too much. :vapor:
 

vsummer1

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Sorry if this has been said,

BUT there is a SPECIFIC law about ecigs (around schools) already on the books, and they have failed to pass or amend a law stating you cannot use an ecig where you were. Bring up that law, and the law about smoking, and reiterate that you have broken no laws, were not in a highly populated area and thus was bothering no one until the MTA officer needed to inspect your e-cig for whatever reason. It was only AFTER he asked you to blow some on him he was able to even smell it.

Good luck fighting for your rights. It sounds to me like you were being perfectly respectable, and infringing on no ones rights in any way.
 

J.R. Bob Dobbs

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Jeenam,

Considering what i do for a living, which i wont go into...You were likely on some sort of CCTV system when this happened. So if you go to court your lawyer may be able to view this event, and or get a copy of it. But what the MTA officer did was basically entrapment. he saw you doing something questionable, which did give him probable cause to approach you, but considering what you were doing i doubt in all reality he had any clue what you were doing. he just likely saw smoke and was feeling full of himself... However when he asked you to do it again, he was telling you to break the rules of which he gave you a citation for. That would be like if i saw someone pull out of a driveway and pulled them over smoking what i though may have been a something illegal then asked them to take a puff so i could be sure it was or was not a something illegal. then issued a citation for possession. from what i can gather of this thread and what i have seen on NYC's websites regarding smoking laws Electronic cigarettes are included in no smoking areas. though the laws governing this in MTA areas is kind of vague. I also do not know the extent which the MTA gives its officers authority.

best answer, if its a big fine get a lawyer, or at least a free consultation. if its like 50$ pay it and move on. the only reason i suggest getting a lawyer is because cases like this going to court creates precedence. Which in the legal world is paramount to future cases. If by chance the judge were to decide that what you were doing was not smoking, and not harmful to others(absolute best case scenario) it would open doors for others down the road. Though the likely outcome is what you see many many times in the legal system. Once your in , they're going to get money out of you. Maybe not for the crime you were ticketed/ arrested for...could be a different lesser violation and that's usually how it is done. Speeding tickets getting reduced to parking tickets and so on...
Bear in mind, any locality can ADD to the current state laws for their own parcel. I.E. State law say you cannot do X in X place. Where by a College can say you cannot do XYZ in X place between the hours of A through B. The can also make laws stricter than state statutes, but cannot EVER go below or surpass the state or federal laws. Essentialy what i am saying is that the MTA would likely be within their rights to make smoking laws stricter than state laws, but it would have to be on the books that way. It would not be left to officer discretion to make laws stricter.

and while i understand why so many people are chiming in with their state laws, the only laws that matter here are NYC statutes. So unless a case in another state could give precedence to his specific case the laws themselves wont help him much.
good luck to you man.

Some clarification regarding the situation:

The MTA officer (not police officer) was upwind of me, sitting in a booth approximately 40 yards away. There were a few other people on the platform, with no one standing less than 20 feet from me. The officer who claimed the smell bothered him was NOT downwind of my vaping. Therefore he wouldn't have been able to smell the 555 flavor I was vaping. No one on the platform made any mention of the fact they were bothered by my vaping, or asked me to stop. I also vape regularly on the platform while waiting for trains.

The officer left his booth and approached me and asked to see the device, at which point I obliged. He asked me use my pv and exhale some vapor so he could 'smell' what it was that was being exhausted into the air. This seemed to imply he wanted to verify it was not another illegal substance. After verifying he was not entrapping me I took one vape and exhaled so he could smell the vapor. At that point he proceeded to write me a citation (for smoking, specifically) and claimed the smell bothered him.

All here are making valid points. However, as some have noted, I am inquiring as to the legality of vaping. Clearly NY state law defines smoking in terms which do NOT describe the act (vaping) for which I was responsible for. Therefore I feel I am not guilty of the citation and will probably attend the adjudication hearing. It is my legal right to defend myself.
 
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DC2

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are there really places in america where you can't walk down the street and smoke a cigarette?? Reading through this thread, I've seen someone say that it is illegal to smoke outside of a designated smoking area in new jersey? So you can't walk down a sidewalk smoking? You can't smoke at a bus stop? Holy crap I never knew how crazy the smoking bans were getting.
They started by banning smoking indoors.
Then they started banning it near the doors.

Now look where they are starting to try and ban it in various places around the country...
--In public parks
--On public beaches
--Anywhere on a college campus, including parking lots
--In your own car with children present
--In government owned public housing

There are even ban attempts underway that include public streets!!

And when we start letting them include electronic cigarettes in those bans...
Which is exactly what they usually try to do...

Some day we'll all be screwed.

If we roll over and comply, they'll walk all over us.
Just like they did with smoking.
 

milo hobo

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First off, guys and gals, please don't get stuck in that "blame the victim" fallacy. It is uncalled for. Jeenam didn't break a law, and yet was given a citation anyways. Jeenam wasn't rude to a large crowd, but was instead bullied by an authority figure writting his own rules as he went.

As has been discussed, vapor does not equal smoke. Smoke contains some vapor, but has a lot of other particulates and gases with it. Those gases and particulates make all the difference. There are studies on the safety of vapor. Look at IVAQS.com and other similar studies. If vapor is harmful, it would be to the individual user. As such, the guy expelling flatulance next to you on the subway probably exposes you to more harm than an electronic cigarette from the guy next to you.

Should someone be cited for merely the appearance of breaking a law even after showing the citing officer that it is in fact NOT illegal. No. This is why we have a judicial system. Maybe NY judges are dumb or have an agenda, but it is rediculous to simply lay down and take it without your day in court.

I second the opinion to start talking to Casaa.org. They have worked NY before.
 

zapped

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First off, guys and gals, please don't get stuck in that "blame the victim" fallacy. It is uncalled for. Jeenam didn't break a law, and yet was given a citation anyways. Jeenam wasn't rude to a large crowd, but was instead bullied by an authority figure writting his own rules as he went.

As has been discussed, vapor does not equal smoke. Smoke contains some vapor, but has a lot of other particulates and gases with it. Those gases and particulates make all the difference. There are studies on the safety of vapor. Look at IVAQS.com and other similar studies. If vapor is harmful, it would be to the individual user. As such, the guy expelling flatulance next to you on the subway probably exposes you to more harm than an electronic cigarette from the guy next to you.

Should someone be cited for merely the appearance of breaking a law even after showing the citing officer that it is in fact NOT illegal. No. This is why we have a judicial system. Maybe NY judges are dumb or have an agenda, but it is rediculous to simply lay down and take it without your day in court.

I second the opinion to start talking to Casaa.org. They have worked NY before.

Exactly!What you have is someone who couldnt make it as a real police officer issuing a ticket after they asked someone to blow vapor in their face and found it offensive.

What comes next he issues a ticket to a child because he doesnt like the smell of their lollipop? Or the food someone is eating? I love a great NY style pizza but I think everyone agrees garlic stinks.

So does this security guards chances of making that citation stick with even a semi-competent lawyer and a decent judge.

Id call legal aid and ask for a civil rights attorney willing to take this on pro-bono or for a low cost. They would have a field day with this.
 
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J.R. Bob Dobbs

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i just want to put a couple things out here, for those of you naysayers coming out of left field with laws saying e cigs are banned in places that say "no smoking"

this was created in 2003 and then again revised in 2008, it says nothing about electronic cigarettes what so ever.
State of New York - Regulation of Smoking in Public and Work Places

this is a press release by gov. cuomo's office reguarding no smoking on MTA platforms.
Governor Cuomo Signs Law To Prohibit Smoking On MTA Platforms | Governor Andrew M. Cuomo

and heres the ACTUAL BILL reguarding this issue of smoking on MTA platforms.
S3461C-2011 - NY Senate Open Legislation - Prohibits smoking in outdoor areas of ticketing, boarding or platform areas of railroad stations operated by the metropolitan transportation authority or its subsidiaries - New York State Senate

He did not break the law...

heres a little diddy on NY States bill search for "electronic Cigarette"
Search - NY Senate Open Legislation - New York State Senate

i find nothing saying that e cig's are classified as tobacco products

and more useful information, copied directly from assembly bill A1468-2011
(D) "ELECTRONIC CIGARETTE" OR "E-CIGARETTE" MEANS A BATTERY-OPERATED
DEVICE THAT CONTAINS CARTRIDGES FILLED WITH NICOTINE, FLAVOR AND OTHER
CHEMICALS THAT ARE TURNED INTO VAPOR WHICH IS INHALED BY THE USER.

i should note i spent nearly an hour reading all of the bills regarding electronic cigarettes, they all apply to the SALE of them to minors, nothing that i have found thus far classify's them as tobacco products.
finally, some of you should reconsider your use of the word vapor in regards to this thread...smoke IS vapor.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/vapor

to the OP, feel free to visit and print out these links should you decide to go to court over this. They will prove useful. and frankly if i were you pending a positive outcome of the court case i might just vape a few puffs on my way out of the court building. Though i would not say YOU should do it, just that if i was proven right i most certainly would. though they may be stealth vapes.

this has been my :2c: thanks for tuning in.
 
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meli.

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According to the Oxford English Dictionary:

Definition of smoke
noun

1 [mass noun] a visible suspension of carbon or other particles in air, typically one emitted from a burning substance: bonfire smoke

2 an act of smoking tobacco: I’m dying for a smoke
informal a cigarette or cigar: you’re going to buy some smokes of your own

3 (the Smoke or the Big Smoke) British informal a big city, especially London: she was offered a job in the Smoke


Regardless of the of what may be defined as Vapour, we are Not exhaling Smoke by definition.
 

Centurion

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I'd fight it. Your activity did not qualify because, as mightymen put it on page two http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...tion-vaping-nyc-mta-subway-2.html#post8111891 an e-cig is not lighted. The argument that it doesn't qualify, in the alternative, because it doesn't involve tobacco is weaker because the ejuice's nicotine, while it could theoretically be from eggplant or tomatoes, in all likelihood it's extracted from tobacco.

Paying a fine when you don't deserve it is the same as paying extortion.
 

zapped

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I know the easy thing to do here would be to just pay the fine and not worry about it but youre fighting for more people than just yourself here and this case could set precedence down the road for other vapers in your state under similar circumstances.

Oftentimes doing the right thing is considerably harder than taking the easy way out but the payoffs are bigger as well.

EVERY time someone is allowed to trample our rights and treat us like smokers it gets even easier for them to do the same or even worse the next time.
 

mightymen

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    No you can't
    Know this, if you fight the ticket which is a summons. You will be setting a precedent in New York State Court system, that using e cig is not smoking and no tabacco products were being used.
    Think about what you will be getting into. What judge wants to set a precedent in a small court that collects fee's for summons.
    You would most likely have to appeal it to a higher court ruling and possible all the way up to the SUPREME COURT.
    You have the right to apeal any Judges finding's as long as a higher court will exept to hear your case.
    Without a LAWYER the courts in the USA really don't listen to us. In order to win your case this can cost a lot of money with legal fee's
    You might be able to get a lawyer to handle your case for free, but I don't know where.

    :evil: Sometimes being right still means you lose.

    Maybe someone can suggest how to get free legal services?

    The court system and Judge you will be seeing in NYC is there for one reason, collect fees they must produce and are not allowed to find you innocent.
    Like it or not this is how the lower court system works in NYC.

    The Judge can dismiss the ticket/summons on grouns of a technicality. First thing I would do is examine the ticket see if there are any mistakes. Like one letter in your name, location, etc. The Judge will dismiss the case on those grounds not to get it more involed. to win your case you most likely have to appeal the case to a higher court.
     
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    Vocalek

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    Know this, if you fight the ticket which is a summons. You will be setting a precedent in New York State Court system, that using e cig is not smoking and no tabacco products were being used.
    Think about what you will be getting into. What judge wants to set a precedent in a small court that collects fee's for summons.
    You would most likely have to appeal it to a higher court ruling and possible all the way up to the SUPREME COURT.
    You have the right to apeal any Judges finding's as long as a higher court will exept to hear your case.
    Without a LAWYER the courts in the USA really don't listen to us. In order to win your case this can cost a lot of money with legal fee's
    You might be able to get a lawyer to handle your case for free, but I don't know where.

    :evil: Sometimes being right still means you lose.

    Maybe someone can suggest how to get free legal services?

    The court system and Judge you will be seeing in NYC is there for one reason, collect fees they must produce and are not allowed to find you innocent.
    Like it or not this is how the lower court system works in NYC.

    The Judge can dismiss the ticket/summons on grouns of a technicality. First thing I would do is examine the ticket see if there are any mistakes. Like one letter in your name, location, etc. The Judge will dismiss the case on those grounds not to get it more involed. to win your case you most likely have to appeal the case to a higher court.

    On the other hand, judges do not like to have their decisions reversed. If the judge bases his or her decision on a strict interpretation of the applicable law, the decision must be "not guilty."

    It actually would be better for us if the decision was erroneous and the case was elevated to higher courts. It would bring more public attention to the issues. Somehow, I don't think the issue for the OP is whether he can afford to pay a $50 fine. The issue is being mistreated, denigrated, and demonized, despite having taken steps to protect his own health as well as the health of bystanders.
     

    alank

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    I recall it was a great way out of a traffic ticket in NYS plead not guilty, officer doesn't show up, case dismissed. These days the court got wise to that, they want their fees plead not guilty, wait months for your hearing, officer shows up the best you get is plea to an offense with no points the fines end up nearly the same. The fine from what I read is $50 you might get off, you can always try. Don't know if lawyer fees are worth it. Let us all know how it goes...
     

    J.R. Bob Dobbs

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    :offtopic:

    not that i really want to start an argument over semantics, but since you forgot to include the verb section of the oxfords description of smoke i thought i would help you out and include it. To that end it also makes a correlation between smoke and vapor.
    Definition of smoke - smoke, physical action and smoking (British & World English)

    According to the Oxford English Dictionary:

    Definition of smoke
    noun

    1 [mass noun] a visible suspension of carbon or other particles in air, typically one emitted from a burning substance: bonfire smoke

    2 an act of smoking tobacco: I’m dying for a smoke
    informal a cigarette or cigar: you’re going to buy some smokes of your own

    3 (the Smoke or the Big Smoke) British informal a big city, especially London: she was offered a job in the Smoke


    Regardless of the of what may be defined as Vapour, we are Not exhaling Smoke by definition.
     
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