Was issued a citation for vaping by the NYC MTA (Subway)

[DC2]

Anybody that calls vapor "smoke" is wrong, and that includes dictionaries.

 

[meli.]

not that i really want to start an argument over semantics, but since you forgot to include the verb section of the oxfords description of smoke i thought i would help you out and include it. To that end it also makes a correlation between smoke and vapor.
Definition of smoke - smoke, physical action and smoking (British & World English)

Lol, I don't think this is off topic, the definition of Smoking is very much at the heart of this thread.
The MTA fail to give a decent definition for Smoking. Jeenam requires their definition, what he is not required to do is define Vapour other than he was not using a combustible tobacco product, nor did he emit 4000+ chemicals or noxious fumes into the environment.

Adding the Verb section was superfluous to requirement, I took the trouble in reading All the words and even if I translated them into Swahili they would still be interpreted to mean exactly the same thing:

Smoke Verb

1 [no object] emit smoke or visible vapour: heat the oil until it just smokes

2 [no object] inhale and exhale the smoke of tobacco or a drug: Janine was sitting at the kitchen table smoking [with object]: he smoked forty cigarettes a day

3 [with object] treat, fumigate, or cleanse by exposure to smoke.
(often as adjective smoked) cure or preserve (meat or fish) by exposure to smoke: smoked salmon
(usually as adjective smoked) treat (glass) so as to darken it: the smoked glass of his lenses
subdue (insects, especially bees) by exposing them to smoke: they then smoke the bees until they are stupid

We do not exhale Smoke by definition.

Electronic cigarettes are an alternative to tobacco smoking, although no tobacco is consumed. It is a battery-powered device that provides inhaled doses of nicotine by delivering a vaporized propylene glycol/nicotine or vegetable glycerin/nicotine solution.

 

[J.R. Bob Dobbs]

yes, you got me....
the people writing dictionaries draw upon hundreds of years of educated individuals and countless research into language. the people writing dictionaries have no idea what they're doing. Perhaps they should have consulted you before writing their dictionary.

Anybody that calls vapor "smoke" is wrong, and that includes dictionaries.

meli, i am not arguing with you, just pointing out that when lawmakers and public officials write laws and propose bills they don't come to ECF looking for the definition of smoke, they consult a dictionary or an expert in the field to which the bill would apply. what we exhale IS vapor, but many many places define smoke as part of the word vapor. its like saying you drive a general motors car when you drive a check camaro. vapor is to smoke as general motors is to camaro. one term is just more specific in what it defines. A fart could be considered vapor... the clouds in the sky are a vapor, Car exhaust could be considered vapor, and yes cigarette smoke is in fact a form of vapor. But somewhere someone though it would be cool to call what we do vaping so the term caught on and now we use a very general term to define what we do. the problem lies in the fact that words on the internet do not always conjoin with reality. you can thank internet jargon and slang for that.

ah well im off to see the hobbit in 3d, and yes i will be producing vapor in the theater. catch you all later and merry xmas

 

[sanman969]

Please keep us posted if you do fight it!

 

[Vocalek]

New York's law provides a specific definition of the word "smoking", and that definition is not at all ambiguous.

§ 1399-n. Definitions.

For purposes of this article:

"Bar" means any area, including outdoor seating areas, devoted to the sale and service of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption and where the service of food is only incidental to the consumption of such beverages.
"Employer" means any person, partnership, association, limited liability company, corporation or nonprofit entity which employs one or more persons, including the legislative, executive and judicial branches of state government and any political subdivision of the state.
"Food service establishment" means any area, including outdoor seating areas, or portion thereof in which the business is the sale of food for on-premises consumption.
"Membership association" means a not-for-profit entity which has been created or organized for a charitable, philanthropic, educational, political, social or other similar purpose.
"Place of employment" means any indoor area or portion thereof under the control of an employer in which employees of the employer perform services, and shall include, but not be limited to, offices, school grounds, retail stores, banquet facilities, theaters, food stores, banks, financial institutions, factories, warehouses, employee cafeterias, lounges, auditoriums, gymnasiums, restrooms, elevators, hallways, museums, libraries, bowling establishments, employee medical facilities, rooms or areas containing photocopying equipment or other office equipment used in common, and company vehicles.
"School grounds" means any building, structure, and surrounding outdoor grounds contained within a public or private pre-school, nursery school, elementary or secondary school's legally defined property boundaries as registered in a county clerk's office, and any vehicles used to transport children or school personnel.
"Retail tobacco business" means a sole proprietorship, limited liability company, corporation, partnership or other enterprise in which the primary activity is the retail sale of tobacco products and accessories, and in which the sale of other products is merely incidental.
"Smoking" means the burning of a lighted cigar, cigarette, pipe or any other matter or substance which contains tobacco.

State of New York - Regulation of Smoking in Public and Work Places

Yes, we realize that in some dictionaries, other possible interpretations of words are provided. But if a law contains a definition provided for the specific purpose of interpretation and enforcement, that specific definition is the one that must be applied.

A law enforcement organization is not properly enforcing a law if that organization uses a different definition to suit their own needs and/or prejudices. That is the principle that Virginia's Attorney General, Ken Cuccinelli, applied when he ruled that the Virgina Department of Health could not apply the state Clean Indoor Air Act to prohibit use of e-cigarettes.

 

[fwellers]

I MAY be causing a lot of trouble behind the scenes. People could be running around talking to managers for all I know. People could be ratting on me only to find out I am vaping. People could think its an illicit substance. It might be OK to vape because I'm technically not smoking but I am causing a lot of people to wonder what I am doing.. I am making smokers jealous, and I am perhaps even making non-smokers that dislike smokers for their air pollution angry. I am worrying mothers with their children if I accidentally blow out a plume around a corner to find a child or a mother with her baby carriage.. So I am beginning to stop vaping.

While my natural respect for other people prevent me from blowing plumes of smoke in close proximity to others, I don't consider it my duty or obligation to modify my behavior simply to placate ignorance, fear and jealousy.

 

[fwellers]

alank, your views are expressed clearly & calmly and are certainly not confrontational. You seek to minimize the fuss around our activity. I suppose that is understandable. I am not sure it a winning tactic, however. I remember in 1990 or so when the smoking restrictions started. At the time, we were told these reasonable restrictions were just a few things that would make certain public places safer. We went along to get along. Now, we have many privately owned places where smoking is banned, even if the owner wishes to allow it. There are many outdoor venues where smoking (and in many cases vaping) is banned. What is the sense of it? How did it come to this?

I fear if we avoid hurting the feelings of intolerant, we project weakness. They will oppose us no matter what we do. Now, there are places I do not vape in public. Crowded indoor areas are not a good choice. I agree that a public train or bus is a poor vaping location. I do not want to needlessly irritate my fellow citizens with boorish behavior.

In places where vaping makes sense, however, I do not negotiate my right to vape. I was recently confronted on an outdoor patio at a bar by one of the ANTZ. Politely, but with absolute firmness, I told them what I was doing was completely safe and legal. My resolve in this actually emboldened a couple of fellow vapers who were also there to pull out their PV's and join me. We had a wonderful 15 minute conversation that we would have never had without their new found sense of courage.

Choose your battles and stand. Never choose where you stand poorly. Stand with absolute conviction when you are right. Respect others, but insist they respect your rights as well.

Well said ! I'm with you on this, and I wish more were. While I will vape in the subway station if I need to, it won't be obvious vaping, and definitely wouldn't bother anybody but a nazi, I agree with your general premise that trying to placate the ignorant and fearful is not going to affect legislation near as much as standing up for our rights will.

 

[fwellers]

No offense, but you have no basis for this. There are NO long term studies, there are barely any short term studies. We do not know how safe vaping is. Is it safer than smoking? I'm convinced it is, but I can't prove that. Is it "completely safe"? We can't say that.

Well quite honestly, you don't know whether whatever manafacturing process they use to make your clothes is healthy. You don't know if the lastest battery technology is healthy. You don't really know much about what is healthy long term these days. There is so much new technology that it's impossible to know what will hurt you long term. So lets get real here.

 

[jeenam]

Thanks to everyone for all the feedback. I will most likely be attending the adjudication hearing to dispute the citation. Will provide an update after the hearing date, which is January 21st, 2013.

 

[TigerLadyTX]

Sounds to me as if the officer was on a power trip. Were it me, yes, I would fight the citation as a matter of principal.

~Tiger

meli. the citation states simply smoking. I asked the officer to specify in the citation that I was using an electronic personal vaporizer but he ignored that request. I asked him multiple times for this.

 

[AaronY]

An MTA officer issued me a citation earlier today for 'smoking' on an MTA platform and another for disregarding the 'No Smoking' signs. Anyone here every been issued a legal citation for vaping?

His claim was the 'smoke' had an unpleasant smell and bothered him.

Wow I hope they don't start doing that in Santa Monica. I have been put in the back of police cars for walking around with my surge tank or a glv 2xl until they found out what it was.

 

[badinfluence357]

Have you gone to court and beat this yet??

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[MrPicC]

I'd love to know this also.. I was thinking of this post Friday as I was waiting on the 6 train..

 

[badinfluence357]

I'd love to know this also.. I was thinking of this post Friday as I was waiting on the 6 train..

I'm glad to see another New Yorker here in ECF..How you doing friend? Going to NYC Vapefest? I want to go bad but don't know how to get there with out a car..lost it in hurricane Sandy...

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[MrPicC]

I'm glad to see another New Yorker here in ECF..How you doing friend? Going to NYC Vapefest? I want to go bad but don't know how to get there with out a car..lost it in hurricane Sandy...

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What up badinfluence! There's a bunch of New yorkers or former New Yorkers here. I am most definitely going to vapefestNY but it's a matter now of if I'm going both days or just the Saturday. Friend is supposed to come up from Baltimore and there's a few people on instagram I wanna meet.
I could honestly drive there being in whitestone and just jumpin on the CIP but I was thinking of just going LIRR route so I could drink.
Sorry to hear about the car but hopefully other then that your good.
Your not in rockaway are you?

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[Tanti]

I found where Cuomo sighed law To Prohibit Smoking On MTA Platforms in 2012 but I dont see where they included e-cigs anywhere.

here is an other thread from ECF of a fellow NYer that had your same problem

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/general-e-smoking-discussion/362019-issued-citation-vaping-nyc-mta-subway-12.html


lol NM was same thread...............

 

[dgstriker1]

You know, this happened to me In Yonkers N.Y. I was waiting for a light in my car and I started to Vape and this cop car was driving by me and he makes A quick U ey and puts the lights and on and gets on the loudspeaker and says" pull over! I do and he comes over to me and his partner on the other side of the car like I'm some dealer or something."What you got in yer hand paly?" "nothing" I said.
"Don't nothing me wiseguy! you got a pair of balls smoking crack at a red light jerk off" I start to laughing... Offisir... It's an electronic cigarette!!! here look!!! I show him my rig,vision 650 mah with a stardust clear on it... Good thing it wasn't my Lambo! He picks it up looks at it and starts to laughing also... He says "sorry buddy it looked like a crack pipe or something" anyways he asks me if this thing really works I told him my story 30 year pod smoker quit almost a month and Loving it... Gave him a card from Vape 4 life I had and I now have a Funny weird vape story... TRUE STORY...

 

[Unc1987]

The MTA (Metropolitan Transport Authority) website does not clearly define smoking. I explained to the MTA officer that what was being exhaled from my lungs was actually vapor and not smoke. Smoke is created by the burning of a given substance. What was coming out of my reo mini was vaporized propylene glycol and vegetable glycerin, both USP grade. It went through one ear and out the other as the info being provided was clearly over the guys head. Police here aren't paid to think, they're paid to intimidate. Just ask the Occupy Wall Street folks.

Do they define smoking as someone carrying a 'lighted tobacco product'? That's how it's defined in North Carolina and vaping is neither lighted or tobacco.

 

[jeenam]

I ended up going to Transit Adjudiction Bureau and paying the fine. $135 total for 2 citations, one for 'smoking' on the subway platform, and the other for ignoring the no smoking sign.

I'm currently too busy with work to dedicate the time to fighting the fines, so I simply paid them. If my work schedule was less busy at the moment, I've had been inclined to fight the tickets.

 

[Unc1987]

I ended up going to Transit Adjudiction Bureau and paying the fine. $135 total for 2 citations, one for 'smoking' on the subway platform, and the other for ignoring the no smoking sign.

I'm currently too busy with work to dedicate the time to fighting the fines, so I simply paid them. If my work schedule was less busy at the moment, I've had been inclined to fight the tickets.

What can't the mta do if you don't pay up? Just curious, and I always ask myself this question when I get fined for things. Generally I can't find anything the "authority" can do and I don pay, haven't had it bite me yet