What research have YOU done and what have you found that suggests even a remote degree of unsafeness with respect to the use of these products?
We need liquid testing
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How about the argument that children walk through haunted houses filled with the same vapor, or that stage actors work on stages flowing with the same vapor, or that concerts flood such vapor into enclosed concert venues, or that firefighters practice in buildings filled with the same vapor, or that it has been and still is considered safe to use for inhaler products?
There is plenty of research available on the inhalation of PG vapor.
And what is this all about?
I have let juice sit on my skin and it never does anything remotely close to what you just described.
I mean, seriously, not even in the same solar system as the description you just gave.
This is why I 99% of the time only drip now (wouldnt recommend for non-sealed batteries). these are use at your own risk, and the risk from the almost 2000 cigs I wouldve smoked since quitting analogs certaintly outweighs the risk from PV's.
I believe the progessional like Dr Seigal and my own Doctor know more than you do on what is saf-ER and both of them have stated that PV's are much safer than cigarettes. I think I will follow their opinions.
When I smoked tobacco cigarettes I used to have a joke, I'd say - "To a smoker, the world's an ashtray". Well, I thought it was funny. 
But the average smoker has, at some point, put a ciggie out somewhere and thought about where that ugnly dirty ....'s going to end up. And then went on their merry way.
Over the years I smoked, I got to the point I'd put just about anything in my mouth it seemed - a smoke from a buddy, never thought where it came from when it slid out of the pack, or where it'd been. I'd pull old butts out of an ashtray if I ran out. Years ago, I'd share a puff or three with others - less of that in recent years though. 8-o
My point is - those who smoke tobacco have established a history of putting some of the dirtiest, vilest, most dangerous stuff in their mouth imaginable and gotten past whatever fears and sneers they've had and figured, cool. "Got a 'moke?"
The ingredients in the tobacco juice I'm using are a granola bar, by comparison. They may not be totally "safe". They may have one part rat hair and two parts chicken bile per billion. There may be unknown side effects to vaporizing vegetable glycerine and inhaling it over the long period of years. I used to put dirty cigarette butts in my mouth and inhale dark brown smoke every few hours. I don't need a data sheet to tell me this is better for me than tobacco. What I've read so far tells me the risks are much less than smoking smoke.
If the data changes, fine. More information is good. So far the smoke being blown by the FDA doesn't completely match what I already know, so I have my doubts as to whether "they", the medical authorities quoted so far, really know what they're talking about. I don't think they do.
My own doctor made it clear - "just quit smoking. Burning anything an inhaling it - why do you want to do that?" He had a point. He also felt these alternative are most worthwhile if they offer a path to quitting entirely. But he's very clear on one thing - smoking tobacco = bad. Don't do it.
That doesn't surprise me. And it doesn't surprise me that there's an army of well paid authorities desparate to protect me from myself. This is America dammit! would't be right if there weren't.
So I proceed, cautiously but with a reasonable confidence at this point. That's me, mileage may vary.
But the next time anyone opens a can of peaches and sticks a fork in one - ask yourself - where's this peach been??? 8-o Then see if you eat it, and if you do - selah.
But the average smoker has, at some point, put a ciggie out somewhere and thought about where that ugnly dirty ....'s going to end up. And then went on their merry way. Over the years I smoked, I got to the point I'd put just about anything in my mouth it seemed - a smoke from a buddy, never thought where it came from when it slid out of the pack, or where it'd been. I'd pull old butts out of an ashtray if I ran out. Years ago, I'd share a puff or three with others - less of that in recent years though. 8-o
My point is - those who smoke tobacco have established a history of putting some of the dirtiest, vilest, most dangerous stuff in their mouth imaginable and gotten past whatever fears and sneers they've had and figured, cool. "Got a 'moke?"
The ingredients in the tobacco juice I'm using are a granola bar, by comparison. They may not be totally "safe". They may have one part rat hair and two parts chicken bile per billion. There may be unknown side effects to vaporizing vegetable glycerine and inhaling it over the long period of years. I used to put dirty cigarette butts in my mouth and inhale dark brown smoke every few hours. I don't need a data sheet to tell me this is better for me than tobacco. What I've read so far tells me the risks are much less than smoking smoke.
If the data changes, fine. More information is good. So far the smoke being blown by the FDA doesn't completely match what I already know, so I have my doubts as to whether "they", the medical authorities quoted so far, really know what they're talking about. I don't think they do.
My own doctor made it clear - "just quit smoking. Burning anything an inhaling it - why do you want to do that?" He had a point. He also felt these alternative are most worthwhile if they offer a path to quitting entirely. But he's very clear on one thing - smoking tobacco = bad. Don't do it.
That doesn't surprise me. And it doesn't surprise me that there's an army of well paid authorities desparate to protect me from myself. This is America dammit! would't be right if there weren't.
So I proceed, cautiously but with a reasonable confidence at this point. That's me, mileage may vary.
But the next time anyone opens a can of peaches and sticks a fork in one - ask yourself - where's this peach been??? 8-o Then see if you eat it, and if you do - selah.
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Complete 100% safe e-juice and e-cigs, to go with our complete 100% safe, food, air, and water. If not, more watchdogs and security, it's best for our health and well-being. Everyone wants more controls, how bout some freedoms to do what you dam well please! I'm hitting a puresmoker 801 pt as I type this(awesome hitter) and I have NEVER felt better. I prefer to make decisions based on how I feel and not on some FDA reports, that I feel are done to get just this type of response from everyone. Hey, there's something wrong with everything, or hadn't you noticed. It will always get you in the long run.
I just hope that the FDA's agenda is to control the production, ingredients and safety of these devices and liquids. And not to ban them to ultimately offer the addicted smoker the only options of analogs, gum or Zyban.
This FDA report could be a good thing. Depends on the spin and the motives.
This FDA report could be a good thing. Depends on the spin and the motives.
Testing has already been done decades ago. PG is deemed safe. Nicotine is deemed safe. The only thing else is a small amount of flavoring that is deemed safe.
The problem with e-cigs is that there is no problem. This is the quandary faced by the FDA. It's their problem. Not ours.
The problem with e-cigs is that there is no problem. This is the quandary faced by the FDA. It's their problem. Not ours.
If the ingredients is what it states, then it sure seems so. However, more tests (with no bias) can't be a bad thing.
The issue that really worries me here is that, if unregulated (heck, even if regulated), you really never know what cost cutting measures companies will put in these liquids. A watchog is better than letting small companies run amuck, making claims and posting their own lab reports.
If you are not familiar with China's practices, one recent incident comes to mind. While manufacturing baby food, a Chinese company could not get approval because there were not enough nutrients in the food. The powers that be sent them back to the drawing board. But in order to hit their target price point, a chemist came up with a wise idea to add a chemical to the baby food that would show up on those tests as the nutrients that were required, at a low cost that makes the baby food company happy. The kicker is that the chemical is toxic and the effects will be traced back to the company within a span of x amount of time.
To make a long story short, the company did a cost / benefit analysis, went with the toxic ingredient and killed many children before they had to shut down. They made the money they needed to make and went on to the next project.
No different from toxic toys, exploding cell phone batts, etc. I am not saying that this is the case here (I really hope not, as I am, and will continue vaping), but since I am putting this stuff in my body, I wouldn't mind if this industry is monitored.
Yes, it CAN be a bad thing. Prices could skyrocket. If you are concerned this much about what you are vaping, pay a lab to check it out for you. You will definitely pay far more in the long run if you don't trust the manufacturers in China that have been making our products for years. They are the true experts when it comes to manufacturing e-liquid. Ample testing has been done in other countries (France tested Janty's liquid which comes from China).
My perspective, and for those questioning whether a leap of faith is warranted or not.....
Ecig, and e-cig juice has not been proven to be harmful/deadly at this point, and may never be. While cigarettes(analogs) have unquestionably been proven to be deadly. That is all the justification I require at this point to tell me that I would rather be vaping than smoking. And I don't want the ability to make that choice taken away from me.
Ecig, and e-cig juice has not been proven to be harmful/deadly at this point, and may never be. While cigarettes(analogs) have unquestionably been proven to be deadly. That is all the justification I require at this point to tell me that I would rather be vaping than smoking. And I don't want the ability to make that choice taken away from me.
Kreel, I agree with you. If I were that concerned, I should pay to have a real indy lab do some tests. But as you may have read on my post 38, "[the FDA "news"] depends on the motive and spin."
While I am quite paranoid when it comes to perishable goods coming from largely-unregulated China, I am also a bit of a conspiracy theorist as well. Compound that with a 20 year addiction to analogs, and I am a bit torn with my choices here. But I will continue to gamble on what seems to be a safer alternative, rather than going with something that has proven to have ill effects.
I guess there is still a little bit of idealism left inside my head amongst the craziness. Since the FDA will do what they will anyway for their own agenda, I can *hope* that the agenda is positive for people (fat chance). If not, I will carry on like sheep until something solid proves otherwise.
While I am quite paranoid when it comes to perishable goods coming from largely-unregulated China, I am also a bit of a conspiracy theorist as well. Compound that with a 20 year addiction to analogs, and I am a bit torn with my choices here. But I will continue to gamble on what seems to be a safer alternative, rather than going with something that has proven to have ill effects.
I guess there is still a little bit of idealism left inside my head amongst the craziness. Since the FDA will do what they will anyway for their own agenda, I can *hope* that the agenda is positive for people (fat chance). If not, I will carry on like sheep until something solid proves otherwise.
I wish I shared your optimism about the FDA. They DO have a track record of equating the dangers of analogs with other alternatives that are much safer. I'm more-or-less convinced that the FDA has a puritanical aversion to harm reduction with analogs.
But as you say - anybody who absolutely trusts the honesty and ability of our Chinese manufacturers is being willfully naive. Before the melamine in baby food, there was melamine in pet food. Lead in our toys and who knows what else is going nowhere.
It's almost certainly far safer on average. It's probably not horrifyingly adulterated. I certainly am not cutting back my vaping any.
But as you say - anybody who absolutely trusts the honesty and ability of our Chinese manufacturers is being willfully naive. Before the melamine in baby food, there was melamine in pet food. Lead in our toys and who knows what else is going nowhere.
It's almost certainly far safer on average. It's probably not horrifyingly adulterated. I certainly am not cutting back my vaping any.
I have heard about Totally Wicked, and I think Ruyan testing their liquid, and I have heard of I believe Germany and two other countries testing the liquid, and now France.
Is there any place here on the forum where all of the testing that has been done has been referenced in one place, like maybe one of the stickies at the top of this forum?
If I could find all such testing information, I would gladly take the time to gather it up.
There's this thread http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...-e-cig-related-legal-medical-information.html
and this page too:
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...-we-know-pg-safer-than-analog-cigarettes.html
and this page too:
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...-we-know-pg-safer-than-analog-cigarettes.html
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Then there's this 'sticky' thread in the Health Section:
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...ing/2716-e-liquid-lab-toxicology-reports.html
(I don't think it's completely comprehensive, but it's a good start)
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...ing/2716-e-liquid-lab-toxicology-reports.html
(I don't think it's completely comprehensive, but it's a good start)
Largely unregulated China? I swear this is getting ridiculous. Your home is filled with chinese stuff. Everyone you know uses chinese stuff. Get off the 'unregulated' bit. E-liquid is highly regulated in China.
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