FDA What happens if/when

[Davey59]

That's The Spirit!

Lets all Sit Back and Do Nothing. Then when things Turn Out Bad, we can All Complain about how Hosed we Got.

I never said I would do nothing, never said I did nothing. Many like you here seam to like this gotcha style posting. Take your facepalm and shove it.

 

[zoiDman]

What a Troll

 

[Tangaroav]

What a Troll

Well, it was a bit rough .....

 

[Jman8]

The publication of the proposed deeming regulations.

And I observe the vaping world did wake up, and did respond. And to this moment, not much has changed on the planet with regards to vaping and existence of proposed deeming regulations.

What does 'waking up' look like for you? We are not all going to agree on our activism, and as these threads have shown, we cannot even agree on framing the problem.

Let's say you are one who frames the problem as more than 99% of all vaping products will be banned as result of proposed regulations. Me, I disagree with that take, but let's for argument sake, say that is accurate. Those who have put this forth are not offering solutions that I see everyone being able to get behind, nor really anything that is viable solution. Feel free to let me know if you think differently.

But another issue I see at work is that we sometimes seek to inspire change / activism with attitude of "we can do this" while on the other hand maintaining a healthy dose of 'big whatever' is behind this, they have all the money and power and they are pulling the strings. So, on the one hand 'we are doomed. Doomed! I tell you' and on the other hand, it is quite possible if we got 1000 more people to join CASAA, then all this would be undone and the vaping world would be peachy king.

 

[DC2]

We don't need 1,000 more people to join CASAA, we need 100,000 more people to join CASAA.
And that starts and ends with the vendors making sure each of their customers is made aware of the issues and encouraged to join.

That is what I wanted to see when the vaping world wakes up.
But it hasn't yet, and it doesn't look like it plans to.

 

[zoiDman]

We don't need 1,000 more people to join CASAA, we need 100,000 more people to join CASAA.
And that starts and ends with the vendors making sure each of their customers is made aware of the issues and encouraged to join.

That is what I wanted to see when the vaping world wakes up.
But it hasn't yet, and it doesn't look like it plans to.

When I went to ECC 2014 it was a Shame that only a Small Handful of Exhibitors displayed a CASAA Logo of Any Kind. And that CASAA and SFATA were placed in such a Non-Prominent place inside the Convention Building.

 

[Jman8]

We don't need 1,000 more people to join CASAA, we need 100,000 more people to join CASAA.

IOW, "we are doomed. Doomed! I tell you!"

Tune in next post when we will tell you that there is still hope and that you can make a difference.

 

[zoiDman]

IOW, "we are doomed. Doomed! I tell you!"

Tune in next post when we will tell you that there is still hope and that you can make a difference.

Not Sure how ANY Difference can be made if People don't Do Something? Anything.

And for Many People, their First (and in some cases, the Only Step) is Joining a Consumer Advocacy Group like CASAA.

I'm Not Sure why you are So Down on the Work that CASAA has Done and is Doing? But I guess you have your Reasons.

 

[Jman8]

Not Sure how ANY Difference can be made if People don't Do Something? Anything.

And for Many People, their First (and in some cases, the Only Step) is Joining a Consumer Advocacy Group like CASAA.

I'm Not Sure why you are So Down on the Work that CASAA has Done and is Doing? But I guess you have your Reasons.

I'm not sure why you presume I am down on work that CASAA has done, but let's go with that as it relates to what my point actually was. Is CASAA doing things, right now or in the past, that will lead politically aware vapers to think that we WILL overcome the burdens being placed upon us at the state and federal level?

If yes (to whatever degree), then why are many political aware vapers constantly speaking as if we are doomed. See post #64 and ones in that vein if wondering what I mean by those who speak as if we are doomed.

If no (to some degree), then please inform me/us what another 100,000 (or heck, even 1 million) additional people in CASAA will accomplish?

I believe the answer to the question I asked in that first paragraph, is some degree of yes, and that CASAA is not the only game in town. This means that while BG seeks to place burdens on the average vaping consumer and restrict choice, that we have made a difference and clearly show that we stand on ready to make a further difference for those who choose to keep hammering away at the unregulated, or otherwise free, market of vaping.

I further believe that between our consumer voice, advocacy and action PLUS inevitable court battles PLUS existence of underground markets that WILL exist if any entity seeks to truly hammer on vaping, that WE WILL SUCCEED. We are already winning (vaping freely in the world), and so them that wish to hammer face the uphill battle.

This doesn't mean we stop and only rest on our laurels, but also doesn't mean we keep resorting to doomsday predictions and use fear (the end is near) tactics to rally the troops. From what I've seen the troops are rallied and the doomsayers aren't showing up all that accurate in their many, ongoing, predictions.

Methinks that just like ANTZ and their inevitable claim that they always supported vaping and it is because of them (ANTZ) that smoking is down, that the vaping doomsayer will one day claim that it is because of them that vaping isn't so restrictive and that all that doom and gloom to rally the troops really paid off.

 

[zoiDman]

I'm not sure why you presume I am down on work that CASAA has done, but let's go with that as it relates to what my point actually was. Is CASAA doing things, right now or in the past, that will lead politically aware vapers to think that we WILL overcome the burdens being placed upon us at the state and federal level?

If yes (to whatever degree), then why are many political aware vapers constantly speaking as if we are doomed. See post #64 and ones in that vein if wondering what I mean by those who speak as if we are doomed.

If no (to some degree), then please inform me/us what another 100,000 (or heck, even 1 million) additional people in CASAA will accomplish?

...

I just Don't see this as a Prue Yes/No situation.

Can CASAA (or any one Entity) Win Every Battle and Ensure that Nothing Changes from the way things are Today? Of Course Not. No One Said the Could.

Is CASAA (or any one Entity) Completely Powerless to Shape e-Cigarette Policy, especially on the Local Level? Once Again, No. CASAA has been Very Influential in Many States/Locals.

And Seeing that CASAA is Staffed by Volunteers, and Does Not require individuals to pay for Membership in CASAA, it is hard for me to Blame or Fault CASAA for not Achieving what some members believe they Should.


---

You Label people who Post that e-Liquids will Not Be Sold via the Internet, or have Nicotine Level Caps like 18mg, or that 99% of Flavored e-Liquids are going to Disappear as "doomsday predictions".

But you know Full Well that these are Extremely Likely. You also know that the Course the FDA is taking will enact De Facto ban on All but a Handful of e-Cigarettes.

 

[Jman8]

I just Don't see this as a Prue Yes/No situation.

Can CASAA (or any one Entity) Win Every Battle and Ensure that Nothing Changes from the way things are Today? Of Course Not. No One Said the Could.

Is CASAA (or any one Entity) Completely Powerless to Shape e-Cigarette Policy, especially on the Local Level? Once Again, No. CASAA has been Very Influential in Many States/Locals.

And Seeing that CASAA is Staffed by Volunteers, and Does Not require individuals to pay for Membership in CASAA, it is hard for me to Blame or Fault CASAA for not Achieving what some members believe they Should.

Lots of straw men there. I think we agree that CASAA has and will continue to make a difference.

You Label people who Post ... 99% of ALL PRODUCTS are going to Disappear as "doomsday predictions".

But you know Full Well that these are Extremely Likely.

*fixed for accuracy, fair representation

I disagree, strongly, that this is likely. Hence my claim of doomsday prediction.

You also know that the Course the FDA is taking will enact De Facto ban on All but a Handful of e-Cigarettes.

Again, disagree. States are already, well ahead of what FDA is doing. Are there states where de facto ban on all eCig products exists?

 

[zoiDman]

...

Again, disagree. States are already, well ahead of what FDA is doing. Are there states where de facto ban on all eCig products exists?

What do States have to do with the FDA?

And You do Recall that Federal Law Supersedes State Laws under the Supremacy Clause.

 

[zoiDman]

...

Again, disagree. States are already, well ahead of what FDA is doing. Are there states where de facto ban on all eCig products exists?

BTW - Your not referring to this are you when you Mentioned Sates?

http://www.ag.ny.gov/pdfs/FINAL_AG_FDA_Comment_Re_Deeming_Regulations.pdf

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...nt-letter-fda-29-state-attorneys-general.html

 

[Jman8]

What do States have to do with the FDA?

And You do Recall that Federal Law Supersedes State Laws under the Supremacy Clause.

Not seeing these points as relevant to what is the main point we are discussing.

I disagree strongly with the doomsday predictions. Hence, it is hard to take those that espouse those prediction as people who have viable plans going forward. As noted in previous post on this thread, they want the doomsday prediction to be believed, but then also want people to feel like there is still hope, if we but listen to them. I find it far more productive to challenge them, and will continue to do so.

 

[zoiDman]

Not seeing these points as relevant to what is the main point we are discussing.

I disagree strongly with the doomsday predictions. Hence, it is hard to take those that espouse those prediction as people who have viable plans going forward. As noted in previous post on this thread, they want the doomsday prediction to be believed, but then also want people to feel like there is still hope, if we but listen to them. I find it far more productive to challenge them, and will continue to do so.

You were the One who Made the Reference to "States". I'm just Trying to Figure Out where you were going with it?

 

[Jman8]

You were the One who Made the Reference to "States". I'm just Trying to Figure Out where you were going with it?

That a de facto ban on all products is extremely unlikely, and that because States have already moved on regulating eCigs and eCigs still exist in all states (with 99% or greater of those products still existing), that it is fallacy to believe FDA will eliminate all products.

 

[zoiDman]

That a de facto ban on all products is extremely unlikely, and that because States have already moved on regulating eCigs and eCigs still exist in all states (with 99% or greater of those products still existing), that it is fallacy to believe FDA will eliminate all products.

The De Facto Ban is going to spurred by the Cost of FDA Approval.

You know that.

 

[AndriaD]

I don't think there will be any kind of ban; they'd have to be even crazier than they are, to try and ban something so lucrative, and so potentially lucrative for gov't coffers. That's really what I see; they're trying to make people all scared now, so that later when they go, sure, have all the e-cigs you like, any kind you like, and we'll take this percentage... people will be relieved, and happy to pay whatever ridiculous percentage the gov't "deems" appropriate. They're showing a worst-case scenario, so that later when the $$$ scenario becomes clear, people won't mind so much.

Andria

 

[Davey59]

I don't think there will be any kind of ban; they'd have to be even crazier than they are, to try and ban something so lucrative, and so potentially lucrative for gov't coffers. That's really what I see; they're trying to make people all scared now, so that later when they go, sure, have all the e-cigs you like, any kind you like, and we'll take this percentage... people will be relieved, and happy to pay whatever ridiculous percentage the gov't "deems" appropriate. They're showing a worst-case scenario, so that later when the $$$ scenario becomes clear, people won't mind so much.

Andria

Agree, I see the demonization as way to justify to the masses the levying of a very large tax on only a select few people. I think they are simply sticking to a time tested method of divide and tax.

If we are wrong, then the chicken little crowd can have a nice fat I told you so moment.

 

[Jman8]

The De Facto Ban is going to spurred by the Cost of FDA Approval.

You know that.

Or really (really really) the cost of science / scientific credibility, with an inherent bias. Our side has desire for scientific studies, which costs millions of dollars. What? Does a million sound too high? Well, how bout let's just make it tens of thousands of dollars, not itemize what exactly that entails and say it is much less than those who would spend millions.

And what will, or has this science around eCigs provided us? Anything, and I mean anything, beyond what anecdotal conclusions have already reached?

With all this said, I still don't see it as getting rid of 99% or more of the products. And if I did, I would be telling anyone/everyone that black market WILL fill that gap, be lucrative and not be overly concerned with the science.