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What is a Safe ohm range Panasonic Ncr18650B (MAX6.8A)

Discussion in 'Batteries and Chargers' started by Vap3ster, Nov 14, 2013.

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  1. Vap3ster

    Vap3ster Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 22, 2013
    Miami
    I recently got into mechanicals. My pair of Ncr18650B have a Max discharge rate of (6.8 amps). Currently I have one in a mechanical at 1.2 ohms. So when I use ohms calculator do I enter 4.2 volts since that is what they are charged to ?

    So 4.2 volts times 1.2 ohms equals a current of 3.5 amps sounds with in range to me?

    I could also use them at 0.8 ohms? 4.2x0.8=5.25amps?

    I also have a pair of orbtronic hybrid IMR18650 2250mah 10AMP Max. Basically orbtronics grey Panasonic.

    For this one 4.2 volts x 0.5 ohms = 8.4 Amps Would this be considered in range ?

    I have never vaped below 1.2 ohms. I am considering doing a 0.8 ohm single coil and a 0.6 dual coil with each individual coil at 1.2.

    I want to know if i am doing the math correctly and if I will be within range?

    I also know I could just buy a kick 2 but I just got into mechanicals and cannot afford one yet.


    Thanks in advance
     
  2. Thrasher

    Thrasher ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Oct 28, 2012
    Madeira beach, Fla
    Ohm's Law Calculator


    Yes for a mechanica you always start with 4.2 so you know the maximum your setup has to put out.

    I find for most things .8-.9 is a perfect range for me, not too powerful on a fresh battery except maybe the first 10 minutes until it drops to about 4v, yet not too high on the resistance that i see the vape drop off too fast once it gets to the 3.8-3.7 range.

    i use a B with my .8 kayfun and right about the time i see the vape start to suffer the batteries are in the 3.5v area.
     
  3. Vap3ster

    Vap3ster Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 22, 2013
    Miami
    Thank you for passing along that information. Making sure I understand how to use the ohms law calculator was my main concern.
     
  4. spawnsharks

    spawnsharks Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Nov 11, 2013
    Austin, TX
    I have the same batteries (as well as a set of 4 matched Efest 350s).

    I have a Sigelei Zmax Mini coming (with a tube, so it can take the 650s as well). I think I asked a while back about the batteries being used in a regulated mod, and people jumped in with advice regarding the best batteries, and the question wasn't really answered, so here goes..

    Are the NCR18650B, 3400mah a safe battery to use in a regulated mod, or should there be solely used in my mech?

    I do not sub-ohm, I like things around 1.1-1.3ohms, usually microcoils for everything from RDA to Genesis style RBA to my ProTanks. I think there was an issue with these batteries in a regulated mod, but I can't really recall what was said in the midst of all of the recommendations. I would like the extended battery life of the 3400mah when I go out for the day, as long as it's safe!
     
  5. durianeliquidflavorplease

    durianeliquidflavorplease Senior Member ECF Veteran

    I believe those NCR batts would be fine in a regulated mod. That's the catch--it's regulated, protected, and it has a certain resistance cutoff meaning it will not fire an atty whose ohm load is too low for the mod's capacity (which varies depending on what mod). I think you got the idea the other way around; you have to be more selective when you use mechs when it comes to batteries. You need safer chemistry batteries like IMR's to use in a mech.
     
  6. Thrasher

    Thrasher ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Oct 28, 2012
    Madeira beach, Fla
    the problem is and this is what everyone seems to not understand is to stay a regulated mod it has to actually pull MORE current from the battery

    4.2volts does not magically appear from a battery at 3.6volts it has to draw more amperage and convert it to make the voltage you ask for.

    I use the B in mechanical with a .8 ohm coil they work awesome.

    I personally do not feel the B has enough amperage to properly drive a regulated device and run within its limits. many people use it and say it works fine. but without knowing how hard the mod is actually pushing the battery we will never really know if it is being run over the continuous rating.

    it will run a regulated mod, but is it doing it while staying under the continuous rating. if you really want to use it thats up to you. for regulated mods I prefer the 2900 PF/PD versions
     
  7. K_Tech

    K_Tech Slightly mad but harmless Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Sep 11, 2013
    Eastern Ohio, USA
    A thousand plus ones. Unless I'm double stacking in a regulated mod, I don't use anything that has a current rating of less than 10 amps.
     
  8. Baditude

    Baditude ECF Guru ECF Veteran

    Apr 8, 2012
    Ridgeway, Ohio
    :thumb: This. The thing to remember about the NCR18650A 3100mah and NCR18650B 3400mah batteries is that they are not high drain batteries. TECHNICAL - WHY HIGH DRAIN BATTERIES?

    Regulated mods and the Kick use PWM (pulse width modulation) and buck boost circuits to make higher voltage than what the battery is. This can require the battery to have 2X the amp output than what the user sets as the voltage output in order to create that voltage. An IMR or hybrid battery that has 10 amps continuous discharge rate will have the high drain capacity to run buck boost/PWM circuitry.

    The above two Panny's will "work" in a regulated mod up to a point to where their amp limit will be maxed. At that point either the battery will shut down or simply not provide to the processor what it needs to make the voltage the user set. This is not the application that these batteries were designed for, and using them in a regulated mod will be pushing them to their upper limits.

    Point being...there are much better batteries available for a regulated mod than these two Panasonic models.

    FYI, the majority of IMR and hybrid batteries are "high-drain", "safe chemistry", and "unprotected" - they are also recommended for both regulated and mechanical mods. ICR chemistry batteries are not high drain nor safe chemistry; in fact their chemistry is volatile (flamable) and therefore require the built-in IC protection to even be considered safe to be used in appliances. Should you ever run a Kick in a mech mod, the manufacturer implicitly states to use only high drain IMR batteries.


    BATTERY BASICS FOR MODS: IMR OR ICR?

    DEEPER UNDERSTANDING OF MOD BATTERIES
     
  9. DaveP

    DaveP PV Master & Musician ECF Veteran

    May 22, 2010
    Central GA
    What Baditude said.

    I'd stick with lMR high drain batts in a mech. You want batteries that are somewhat forgiving when loading them to higher levels. Li-ion tends to hit the danger zone quickly and once they start to smoke and spew you might not be able to get away fast enough to escape the venting stage.

    lMR batts tend to be less dramatic when insulted.
     
  10. durianeliquidflavorplease

    durianeliquidflavorplease Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Thanks for clearing that up, Baditude and Thraser. :)
     
  11. JmanEspresso

    JmanEspresso Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jul 15, 2013
    Westchester, NY,USA
    One of the simplest things to do when it comes to batteries and which is good for what kind of vaping, if we're talking the 18650 size especially, but even for all the popular sizes, is to use only one battery, and nothing else.

    AW IMR 18650 1600mah version

    That battery there, is a workhorse. You can drive a subohm coil down to around .2ohms without issue, AND, you can use it all day long in a regulated device.

    Now if you want some variety, the rest of the AW IMR lineup, fits the bill. Even down to the little 18350 can handle a .8ohm coil, so they're all friendly batteries.


    Its not the highest MAH battery you can use, BUT, it does mean that, pretty much no matter what type of vaping you do, the AW IMR batteries are well suited to it. So if you want to just use some batteries and not have to think about which batteries go in which device.. this is how you do it.
     
  12. Baditude

    Baditude ECF Guru ECF Veteran

    Apr 8, 2012
    Ridgeway, Ohio
    I pretty much use only the red AW IMR batteries in all of my mods, both mechanical and regulated. (I don't do sub-ohm)

    I do have one Panasonic CGR18650CH (IMR/hybrid) 2250mAh in rotation with my AW 18650 2000mAh batteries, and despite it's higher mAh capacity it doesn't last any longer than the AW's. I've tried Efest 18350 800mAh IMR's in rotation with my AW 18350 700mAh IMR's and ended up retiring them to a drawer for a rainy day after only a month's use because of poor performance. The AW's have always been dependable and consistant for me.

    So I agree, when in doubt, you really can't go wrong with AW IMR batteries.
     
  13. Thrasher

    Thrasher ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Oct 28, 2012
    Madeira beach, Fla
    one thing not discussed much is the voltage drop of the batteries themselves when under load. in several tests the AW1600 has one of the best discharge curves for 5 amps and higher. so even though a battery may have double the Mah what amount of that you can effectively use is all that matters.

    im most cases under heavy loads of 5 amps and higher the bigger Mah batteries do last longer but the added time is usually well below the standard ranges we use, and for most situations who cares how long a battery can last past 3.5 (ish) volts.
     
  14. KenD

    KenD Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Aug 20, 2013
    Stockholm, Sweden
    Aren't the Sony vtc4s and Panasonic NCR18650PF(pd)s pretty bad ... as well?

    Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk
     
  15. Thrasher

    Thrasher ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Oct 28, 2012
    Madeira beach, Fla
    im still waiting for some charts on the pf the only ones were for the pd and they supposedly changed the discharge curve a little bit and made it better (the flashlight guys are slackin on all these new batteries).
     
  16. spawnsharks

    spawnsharks Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Nov 11, 2013
    Austin, TX
    Thank you for the answers on page one... Baditude and Thrasher, yu guys cleared up a lot. I am not a sub ohm guy (yet?) and may never be... I also don't push my mods that far. From your answers, I see that I will be safe, but not getting the fullest benefit of the extra mah rating.

    Not being rude at all, but the rest of the thread reduced back to recommendations for new batteries, which is where many questions about things go, and is helpful for the overall education in this hobby, but, even as stated in the original post, not what I am looking for. I have these, and want to know if they are safe.. that has no bearing on IMR, Efest or AW. I appreciate the advice, and will consider all of it when making future battery purchases. I am glad to know that I can use what I have, and that there is something better to look forward to...

    This community is amazing with the wealth of knowledge available!
     
  17. Baditude

    Baditude ECF Guru ECF Veteran

    Apr 8, 2012
    Ridgeway, Ohio
    If you are using "4.2" for the voltage and whatever your ohm measurement is on a multimeter, when using the Ohm's Law Calculator, the amps pulled from the battery will be displayed as "current". This figure should be less than the battery's amps in continuous discharge rate.

    As previously stated, and recommended by the Kick manufacturer, the Kick requires using an IMR high drain battery, which the Panasonic and Orbtronic NCR18650 A & B models are NOT.

    The "Orbtonic hybrid IMR18650 2250mah 10AMP Max" that you have IS a high drain battery which could be used with a Kick. However, keep in mind that the Kick module takes up a fair amount of room in the battery compartment and there may not be enough room for it and an 18650 battery. Many find they have to drop down a battery size to an 18490 IMR battery.
     
  18. CaliVaper

    CaliVaper Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Nov 23, 2011
    Outer Space
    Hey Baditude. I'm a little confused on this. in your blog (9) there is a list recommended batteries. 3 of them (all 18350's) are listed as either 6A or 6.4A. With the B being at 6.8A Shouldn't it be just as safe if not slightly more? Especially if bigger (physical size) batteries are inherently safer.
     
  19. Baditude

    Baditude ECF Guru ECF Veteran

    Apr 8, 2012
    Ridgeway, Ohio
    Good point. All the batteries on the list in the blog are HIGH-DRAIN IMR or hybrid batteries. The Panasonic A & B batteries are NOT HIGH-DRAIN (and therefore not in the list), and were not designed for high-drain applications. They were designed for extended low-drain applications such as in a flashlight. They are different battery chemistry.

    High drain applications would be in a regulated mod which uses pulse regulation to make VV/VW, a mechanical mod using a Kick, or when using an RBA/RDA.

    Low drain applications would be using factory-made juice attachments on a mod (cartomizers or clearomizers). The Panny's in question can handle that load fine.

    Bottom line, you wouldn't want to use those Panasonic A & B batteries nor an 18350 battery when using coil resistances below 1.0 ohms. Sub-ohm is not an application for the 18350 size batteries.

    Hopefully that is clearer.
     
  20. _sidekick_

    _sidekick_ Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Aug 6, 2013
    CA
    Steam Engine | Vaping related calculators

    This calculator takes APV efficiency into account and calculates the amperage actually drawn from the battery. The DNA20 is 93% efficient, according to Evolv. I dropped that down to 90%, due to the wiring for switches, grounds, battery, charger, etc. My regulated mod uses relatively large gauge wiring, with short paths, so I would not think it is losing much efficiency through the wiring. I'm using my Hanamodz V2 for this example, btw. The 18650B is rated at 2C, or 6.8amps continuous and 12 amps pulse(5-6 sec.).

    According to the above calculator, this battery would be within its limits until you got to around 3.3-3.4V battery charge vaping at 20W on a 0.8 ohm coil. At about 3.3V, you hit the amp limit. At 3.5V, 20W would be pulling 6.35 amps(~93%) and 22.2 watts from the battery. Not exactly "safe", I suppose, but still within the continuous discharge capability of the battery. And only about 50-60% of the pulse discharge capability. With the battery at 4V, you're pulling 5.5 amps(~80%) of current at 20W.

    Let's use a more realistic example. I've been vaping between 16-18 watts on my Hana. At 18W and 3.5V battery charge, you're pulling 5.71 amps(~84%). At 4V and 18W, it's 5 amps. At 16W and 3.5V battery charge, that is 5.08 amps(~75%). At 4V and 16W, that is 4.44 amps(~65%). At 16W, you do not hit the amperage limit until ~2.7V battery charge.

    How many of us are really vaping at 20W on a regulated mod, taking drags longer than 5-6 seconds consistently? Even if you are, it seems like this battery is relatively safe for the average user. I understand your points about it being a "low-drain" battery and using a chemistry that is not as safe as IMR, but neither of those really come into play if you pay attention to battery charge and know the limits of the battery and what your current build is doing in terms of battery load, correct? In the event of a battery failure, or venting, etc., this battery will not be as safe, due to its chemistry, but other than that, it seems perfectly suitable if used properly.

    Are you simply putting this out there for people who do not bother figuring out the amperage draw of their current setup or ignore battery amperage limits?

    Basically what I'm wondering, is if you're operating within the amperage limits of the battery, why is safety an issue, whether or not the battery is "low-drain" or "high-drain"? It is rated for X amperage draw, and if you are not operating extremely close to that amperage limit, is should not "blow up" or vent, correct? My understanding of a "high-drain" battery, is that you have a higher amperage limit and a "low-drain" battery has a lower amperage limit. Is that correct? I'm not a battery expert, so I'm just trying to make sense of why this battery should not be used, if you are operating within its limits. Any battery should be operated within its amperage limits, regardless of chemistry or if it is a "high-drain" or "low-drain" battery.

    I am not trying to say you're wrong, but I would like to get some more info on this and you seem very knowledgeable on the subject. Sorry for the wall of text, but I'd really like to figure this out, because I have one of these and I like the idea of a 3400MAH battery for using in my Hana while I'm out. If it is truly unsafe for use, I will not use it, but based on the info I have and the setup I am using it in, it seems like it should not be an issue.
     
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