What is up with this "Sub-ohm advisory"?

[steved5600]

Sure seems to me to be a lot of opinion maybe personal experience. Think it needed more science. Would like to have seen references to something tests or incidences. But looking back at my answers to questions about 30% is personal experience 40% opinion and 30% from testing or from a reference. Hate that You know who is having a field day with this on is forum. But it's to late to remove it.

 

[rolygate]

I remember the last time this kind of stuff happened, it was with mechmods the last go around. There were things happening that people didn't know about, so when I posted some cautions about going too far, there was a tremendous pushback. Everybody and his dog was telling me I had gone too far, didn't know what I was talking about, the vendors are all saints who have our best interests at heart - and all the rest of it.

It stopped soon enough when the media picked up on people blowing their faces off, though.

People are welcome to their opinions; but if they are not in a position to know everything that is going on, they might consider not promoting that opinion as gospel.

My position on this topic is clear: RBA use and sub-ohming is not dangerous, contrary to the many posts I have read that warn that it is. That opinion seems to be regarding the battery aspect, but using a single cell in any device has never caused any serious incident that we are aware of. It is important to avoid warnings about things that have no evidence for danger, otherwise people will disregard genuine warnings.

However, mechmod-RBA use is one of the most variable forms of vaping, and an individual can easily take it beyond the boundaries of what is generally recognised as safe. For example, by stacking batteries then driving them hard in a sealed metal sub-ohm rig. If the individual chooses to do that, it's fine by me, as the Darwin Awards generally take care of it. It's bad for vaping when that hits the news but realistically there is nothing we can do about it; and since I'm a believer in ultimate personal freedom, I wouldn't really want to stop others doing whatever they like anyway.

What I very strongly object to is members promoting extreme vaping as the norm, where beginners can get the idea that madness such as stacking cells then driving them at high amps in a sealed metal tube inserted into the face is a good idea. I will do anything and everything possible to point out the huge risk elevation implicit in certain operational modes of vaping to those who may not have the experience to recognise the risk.

RBA use is not the same as sub-ohming. Many people use RBAs now and we can legitimately regard that as a normal and safe form of vaping.

Some go further and drop coil resistance below 1 ohm. This is a small minority of vapers as a whole (there are about 8 million in the USA by my calculations, and there are probably around 80,000 sub-ohmers or less, so that's <1% of the vaping population). Sub-ohming per se is equally safe, but there are limits. Nobody knows exactly what those limits are yet. It is not correct to present the most extreme forms of sub-ohming as 'normal' to beginners. Experienced vapers probably realise that super-heating refills with ultra-low-ohm coils, and vaping 20ml of creamy custard a day, and stacking batts driven hard in a sealed tube inserted into the face, have additional risk. Beginners, newcomers, and others may not, and it is simply our duty to point this out.

What people do if/when they know the risks is up to them. Suggesting there is no elevation of risk no matter how far you go is just wrong.

 

[skoony]

if anything the warnings serve to tell the ANTZ and the FDA we are paying attention and care about each other. we are not the disorganized,un-knowledgeable, dejected cast offs they so easily bowled over in the past. dont take me wrong i know there are many out there who fought the good fight back in the day. i am referring to people like me(the average smoker) whom didn't have the knowledge and resources to understand what and how things where going,let alone what to do about it. the internet changed all that. i'm all in now.
regards
mike

 

[Supergrover]

There is a risk when you use a mech with any ohm build.

If a battery is discharged too low, it can go into thermal meltdown, also if the Battery used cant handle the high discharge rate that sub ohming creates, it can fail just the same.

When I decided to go to Mech mods and sub ohming I did alot of research, my other hobby is RC, so I know about Battery safety.
Someone without that knowledge that just goes right in without reading anything, could be at risk.

As for Dr Fs research in DA and AP, I would love to see what vendors he used, I sub ohm and most if not all my flavors are sweet, fruits,custards, 50/50 mix or higher on the VG side.

Bad chemicals reminds me of something I read recently about unicorn milk containing white coloring, which has titanium dioxide, it was deemed unsafe for inhalation, the company no longer puts in the white coloring.
I think that shows good practices and concern for customers by a US based company

 

[Ryedan]

Some go further and drop coil resistance below 1 ohm. This is a small minority of vapers as a whole (there are about 8 million in the USA by my calculations, and there are probably around 80,000 sub-ohmers or less, so that's <1% of the vaping population). Sub-ohming per se is equally safe, but there are limits. Nobody knows exactly what those limits are yet. It is not correct to present the most extreme forms of sub-ohming as 'normal' to beginners. Experienced vapers probably realise that super-heating refills with ultra-low-ohm coils, and vaping 20ml of creamy custard a day, and stacking batts driven hard in a sealed tube inserted into the face, have additional risk. Beginners, newcomers, and others may not, and it is simply our duty to point this out.

IMO it's not just sub-ohming that has these risks. The new high power regulated mods can output up to 100 watts depending on the model. I see no difference between vaping at 100 watts with a sub-ohm setup and doing the same with a regulated mod. It might actually be a bit safer with a sub-ohm coil than with a higher ohm coil pushed to the same high power by a regulated mod because the lower ohm coil probably has more surface area per watt due to thicker wire being used.

 

[Delarob]

Ok, folks. Sorry for the stupid question but I am trying to read about sub ohming, battery failure etc and it's enough to give you a head ache trying to filter through everything and learn just a little.

Am I correct to assume that if I don't rebuild heads that I won't be sub-ohming?

Am I also correct that if I use standard tanks, cartomizers etc that I shouldn't have an issue with my batteries getting hot et al?

I just bumped up to a k100 from and EGO that I have been vaping for the past year or so. I don't plan to get into coil building, tricking out my mod or doing anything other than filling my juice and enjoying my vape. Yes, boring to some, fine for me. I just want to enjoy my vape with out all the cloud chasing yada yada. But reading all of this doom and gloom about batteries exploding and pushing to much current... yeesh. I get nervous wiring an electrical outlet. Do I really have anything to worry if I just use my mod as it was intended with say a protank with the batteries that are coming with it?

Thanks and again, sorry for the dumb questions.

 

[bm2112]

Do I really have anything to worry if I just use my mod as it was intended with say a protank with the batteries that are coming with it?

No. This only applies to people who build their own coils.

 

[rolygate]

All of this only applies to people customising their gear to the ultimate: using non-standard battery set-ups, and rebuilding their coils to pull super high amp loads.

It has no application at all to ordinary vaping.


[sorry, co-post]

 

[Delarob]

Ok, at least I retained something. LOL! Thank you.

 

[USMCotaku]

Roly
Need to put the post where access is not restricted.

Just as a general statement; the more extreme we become with our vaping, the more hazards we will encounter.

Which has more risk?
this

or this

well that all depends.....if the first guy is a klutz, but guy number two is a seasoned rock climber....then I'm going to say guy one is at more risk

 

[crxess]

People like to take the General in everything and put a blind eye to the off chance.

I probably take as much risk as anyone in my daily life in general.
Flying a plane can be considered Dangerous but many will argue the safety, Bla Bla Bla. Yes, flying is fun. Falling out of the sky Bites.

Vaping Sub Ohm can be very enjoyable. I like to on occasion. It is the little things that can get nasty.
Carelessly forgetting to Drip and taking a seriously Dry Hit. I have seen Coils ignite - That is Burning, not Vaping and Burning increases the chance of carcinogens.

Occasionally people miss the build or a abuse their build which resulted in Burning the finish off plated metal parts and Melting post grommets. These parts were not made to be inhaled. Metals and plastics should not be a part if the gasses inhaled.
To say these things are Dangerous if inhaled may need more study.
To say these things are perfectly safe is blind Recklessness.

Needless to say, I am disappointed at the less than necessary BS in the community as a whole.

23 years in business I never saw the need to bad mouth a competitor in an attempt to boost my popularity.

 

[Jomiz]

who bad mouth who?

People like to take the General in everything and put a blind eye to the off chance.

I probably take as much risk as anyone in my daily life in general.
Flying a plane can be considered Dangerous but many will argue the safety, Bla Bla Bla. Yes, flying is fun. Falling out of the sky Bites.

Vaping Sub Ohm can be very enjoyable. I like to on occasion. It is the little things that can get nasty.
Carelessly forgetting to Drip and taking a seriously Dry Hit. I have seen Coils ignite - That is Burning, not Vaping and Burning increases the chance of carcinogens.

Occasionally people miss the build or a abuse their build which resulted in Burning the finish off plated metal parts and Melting post grommets. These parts were not made to be inhaled. Metals and plastics should not be a part if the gasses inhaled.
To say these things are Dangerous if inhaled may need more study.
To say these things are perfectly safe is blind Recklessness.

Needless to say, I am disappointed at the less than necessary BS in the community as a whole.

23 years in business I never saw the need to bad mouth a competitor in an attempt to boost my popularity.

 

[crxess]

who bad mouth who?

Not you and that is as far as I can go on this forum.
All is good as far as I'm concerned with ECF members.

 

[5150sick]

The thing about exploding batteries.
90% of all 'evil exploding ecig battery' stories I have heard of had an ego battery/charger involved.
They were mostly charging issues such as leaving a battery on charge unattended and charging on a computer, ipad or something besides the charger that came with the kit.
Of course there was that one idiot that decided to make his own mod, steal the wrong batteries from radio shack, stack them and blow his teeth and part of his tongue out.
It happened down here in Florida.
I saw a guy on youtube that had a KTS Storm with the cheap ICR fasttech battery. He put an iclear 30 on it, it dead shorted and vented in the mall food court!
None had anything to do with sub ohming.

 

[regal55]

Would sub-ohming vape some heavy metals in the coils, but Personally I don't think it should be up for discussion you can't talk about 98% Nicotine, a ban is ban is a ban.

 

[Sthur]

I saw this vid and didn't know if anyone posted yet.

The Dangers of Vaping - Acrolein Pt. 2 (The Answer) - YouTube

 

[5150sick]

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...n/433227-pg-vg-questions-10.html#post11907490

 

[Steamix]

Doesn't have to be just sub-ohming.
Ever inhaled on a nasty dry hit then you should know.

Vaping is looking for a careful balance between, heat, liquid and air flow...

Overdoing it - especially on the heat without proper liquid flow - could yield some unwelcome side products.

Check the MSDS. Too hot on the coil and some percentage of the ingredients can decompose before they actually vaporize.

So I am holding my horses on the all-out-cloud-chasing till more research findings are in.

 

[Oliver]

Here's the principal question that is troubling me:

We know from Kosmider & Goniewicz's study that high wattage output creates appreciable levels of formaldehyde and acetaldehyde. There are problems regarding the degree to which their methodology generalises to the way that vapers actually use the products, but this doesn't mean that there isn't a problem.

And here's the main question for all of us to consider. Many of us have long believed that these byproducts are being created at the point of dry-puff alone, but the "detection threshold" at which formaldehyde causes sensory irritation is higher than the safe limits of formaldehyde - in other words, it's possible to inhale dangerous levels of formaldehyde without knowing it.

The fact is we do not, as yet, have good experimental evidence on this regarding the products as used in real life. The fact is, also, that even at the extreme end where formaldhyde/acetaldehyde are produced, the 80-odd other cancer causing compounds in tobacco smoke are not. The fact is sub-ohm (and other forms of high-power vaping) is enjoyable to many, and is likely directly responsible for many people making the full substitution - and that's a good thing.

Or, as Kosmider et al. put it:

New generation of high-voltage ECs may put their users in increased health risk from exposure to high levels of carbonyl compounds although the risk will still probably be much lower compared with smoking.

However, people have the right to know what they're inhaling, and we need good answers. Dr Farsalinos told me last week that he has a good protocol for testing on this question, but does not yet have the funding...

 

[rolygate]

The thing about exploding batteries.
90% of all 'evil exploding ecig battery' stories I have heard of had an ego battery/charger involved.
They were mostly charging issues such as leaving a battery on charge unattended and charging on a computer, ipad or something besides the charger that came with the kit.
Of course there was that one idiot that decided to make his own mod, steal the wrong batteries from radio shack, stack them and blow his teeth and part of his tongue out.
It happened down here in Florida.
I saw a guy on youtube that had a KTS Storm with the cheap ICR fasttech battery. He put an iclear 30 on it, it dead shorted and vented in the mall food court!
None had anything to do with sub ohming.

Understood - but you weren't around during the previous cycle. This has all happened before, and it's not your fault you don't know about it. Mechmods were popular previously (in 2010 - 2011), then the fashion moved to VV and VW. Sales of mechmods fell through the floor, and you could be excused for thinking they didn't exist. Then RBAs were invented and mechmods came back in.

In the previous era of popularity, people often used series batteries, and there were dozens of explosions and rocket fails as a result. There were serious injuries and fires.

If ECF warns about something, there is a very good reason for it - otherwise we'd save a huge amount of time and effort by just shutting up. Every time we do this (and it's a regular thing, because that's the way it goes in a totally unregulated market with zero consumer protections, as exists in the USA) there is a massive pushback from people who don't know what's going on - and every time, we are proved 100% right. No doubt it looks wrong from the point of view of those who don't have access to all the information that we see; maybe it looks like scaremongering or something. You can't blame people for complaining about scaremongering. But we don't do that: we see a lot more than most members can. In fact it's part of our job to do this because very few are in a position to collate all the relevant information.

Once again - we are always proved 100% right. That's all I can tell you.