When to say when?

[AZHIGHWAYZ]

I've been vaping solid for three years now. I've never really considered batteries an issue due to my vaping habits. While I've always been conservative with my voltages and ohms, I've recently started to wonder when I should retire my batteries.

I've been using the same Provari Mini with battery extender cap for all three years. I've used RBA tank set ups and now use an IGO-W dripper. My coils typically measure between 1.5 to 1.0 ohm. I usually vape between 2.9 to 3.5 volts though rarely hit above 3.3 unless the pull isn't quite getting the vape I want. The thing is I've been using 2 sets of batteries. I have 2 AW IMR 18350 700mAh 3.7V (2.6WH), and 2 AW IMR 18490 1100mAh (4.1WH). I used 1 set of 18490 and 18350 exclusively for a year rotating them out as needed for charging. Last year I bought a second set thinking the other set would soon start to die out. So I'm now using both sets, rotating them out as they discharge in my provari. I've been using the same Tenergy TN270 charger for 3 years with them. I just purchased a NITECORE D2 because it was cheap on AMAZON PRIME DAY. Now that the long explanation is out of the way. I have some questions.

When should I get rid of the first set of batteries?
Is there a safety precaution time table for overall battery life expiration?
Should I be worried about them being so old they suddenly blow up or do some type of thermal runaway?
Will switching chargers have any affect on the batteries?

All the batteries still perform almost like new with hardly any noticeable difference between their length of use. Thanks in advance for your help.

 

[somdcomputerguy]

I have 2 AW 18490's an AW 18350 that are a bit over a year old. I've noticed that they don't hold a usable charge as long, and they recharge quicker (but I'm putting the in the 'recharge queue' sooner, ~ 3.5 or so volts..). I've been paying more attention to them during the recharge process, and feeling for temp. increase. They still discharge and recharge fine though, just quicker.. I certainly hope they don't vent out or blow up before I decide that I need new ones. As far as switching chargers, doing so back and forth may have an effect, but I can't really say..

Lexington Park, eh? I moved from Solomons a dozen or so years ago. I haven't been to St. Mary's or Calvert counties for way too long. I live in WV now, and I've only been back to visit some of the best people in this world once or twice.

Southern Maryland Computerguy​

 

[Assi]

A branded Li-Ion battery should hold 300 complete cycles up to 80% from the rated capacity. That is the theory. AW are using China batteries in those sizes (higher internal resistance).
If a battery loses on power, it does not mean, that the risk of anything raises. The biggest risk I can mention is of a short-circuit as a result of damaged shrink tub of the battery.
Keep them in use as Long as they give you reasonable power.

 

[sawlight]

A branded Li-Ion battery should hold 300 complete cycles up to 80% from the rated capacity. That is the theory. AW are using China batteries in those sizes (higher internal resistance).
If a battery loses on power, it does not mean, that the risk of anything raises. The biggest risk I can mention is of a short-circuit as a result of damaged shrink tub of the battery.
Keep them in use as Long as they give you reasonable power.

Sorry, but you need to do a lot more research on AW batteries before making statements like that.
As for the op's question, until you notice a drop in runtime, keep using them.

 

[Mooch]

A few thoughts on when to recycle your batteries...

When should you replace a battery? | E-Cigarette Forum

 

[Assi]

Sawlight - Which researches do you mean? AW is not a manufacturer of batteries, AW is a rewraper of batteries. In the battery sizes of 18350 and 18500 you mentioned there is no manufacturer from the big 4 (Samsung, LG, Sony and Panasonic), that manufacturer High-Drain batteries in those sizes. Panasonic manufacturer the NCR18500 and NCR18500A and Sanyo has also a 18500 with 1700 mAh (forgot the type).
Pls. tell me, where I was wrong?

 

[AZHIGHWAYZ]

A few thoughts on when to recycle your batteries...

When should you replace a battery? | E-Cigarette Forum

Thanks Mooch! I was searching through a bunch of your posts on batteries yesterday but never saw that one. That's exactly what I was looking for. I greatly appreciate the information. You rock!

 

[sawlight]

Sawlight - Which researches do you mean? AW is not a manufacturer of batteries, AW is a rewraper of batteries. In the battery sizes of 18350 and 18500 you mentioned there is no manufacturer from the big 4 (Samsung, LG, Sony and Panasonic), that manufacturer High-Drain batteries in those sizes. Panasonic manufacturer the NCR18500 and NCR18500A and Sanyo has also a 18500 with 1700 mAh (forgot the type).
Pls. tell me, where I was wrong?

He doesn't manufacture batteries, as you said, but he tests and grades all the batteries he gets. Only the ones that he tests as the best of the best get his wraps. That is why you pay a premium for them and also why you don't see him selling the latest and greatest high current batteries. He spends time testing them before releasing a new one. In the flashlight world his batteries are chosen above all others! Provape built the Porvari/mini around his batteries because they are so highly rated.
These aren't "Chinese batteries rewraped".

 

[retired1]

These aren't "Chinese batteries rewraped".

Well, technically they are. They're just higher quality than some of the junk you see advertised out of that country.

 

[sawlight]

Well, technically they are. They're just higher quality than some of the junk you see advertised out of that country.

Touché!

 

[Assi]

He doesn't manufacture batteries, as you said, but he tests and grades all the batteries he gets. Only the ones that he tests as the best of the best get his wraps. That is why you pay a premium for them and also why you don't see him selling the latest and greatest high current batteries. He spends time testing them before releasing a new one. In the flashlight world his batteries are chosen above all others! Provape built the Porvari/mini around his batteries because they are so highly rated.
These aren't "Chinese batteries rewraped".

First In my comment you didn´t read any single Evaluation to AW batteries. AW was one of the first Brands for Li-Ion batteries - that is something you can´t take from them. But in the meanwhile there are few other good Brands like Keepower, EVVA and Orbtronics on the market and it is not like it used to be around 6-7 years ago, AW, or Ultrafire.
My remark to the Special sizes like 18350, 18500 is a fact and again no positive, or negative Evaluation.

 

[anavidfan]

I wish that battery manufacturers would put a bit of the innovations they have made into the 18350 or at least the 18490/500 sizes.

I know that the market and the sales are what moves the time and money , but Im sure Im not the only one out there that prefers smaller mods. Im small and 18650 is just so unwieldy, but also heavy. I have hand problems and even if I didnt, I love the look of shorter tube mods.

I use AW IMRs because they have the best results ( in the smaller sizes ) and all the battery experts still say that they are the best for use in mechs ( in the smaller sizes ). I would love to have a bit more run time and amperage from them. I am a very modest vaper and never build lower than .80 ish, so I dont really need it, but would like it.

I use some Effest but notice they dont give me as much use time as the AW.

I know this is probably an unrealistic wish as today's market is geared to regulated box designs, so the 350 and 490/ 500 higher performance batteries are not really needed.

I have more than a dozen 18490/500 in rotation, and Im finally noticing some of the older ones ( at least 1 year, probably some a 2 years in use ) that are not holding the charge as long or not charging to 4.2 v.

I think Im safe, or at least hope Im safe. I check them everytime I take one out to use. I check for tears, bubbles, any change in the contact areas ( corrosion,etc ) I clean them monthly; I use alcohol and wipe them down etc.

In the over 4 years Ive only had 3? batteries that have completely stopped charging, and 1 venting.

 

[retired1]

I, too, prefer the smaller form factor. My mechs (all hybrids) take 18490 batteries.

 

[sawlight]

First In my comment you didn´t read any single Evaluation to AW batteries. AW was one of the first Brands for Li-Ion batteries - that is something you can´t take from them. But in the meanwhile there are few other good Brands like Keepower, EVVA and Orbtronics on the market and it is not like it used to be around 6-7 years ago, AW, or Ultrafire.
My remark to the Special sizes like 18350, 18500 is a fact and again no positive, or negative Evaluation.

Maybe it's the way you worded it, maybe it's the way I read it, maybe it's I'm just miserable right now, I took it as a slam on AW. I gather, now, you didn't mean it that way. My bad.

 

[Train2]

First - had a question, did a search and boom - found the topic here, and a relevant blog from @Mooch - COOL.

So - I have some aging batteries, and I'm pretty certain it's just time - but before I ditch them, I wondered: is there any easy way to "measure" whether a battery's "capacity" has been reduced - other than, I don't know, counting puffs or something?

• These have no damage whatsoever
• They're just old - some are approaching 2 years
• I can't tell how many re-charges, I rotate 'em, and swap early often, etc...some baby blue Samsungs probably at or over the 300 mark though
• MOST of them still charge to 4.2, but a couple now only hit 4.18...
• I FEEL like they've lost runtime. Like they've "lost some mah"...
• But it could be "in my head" - like I just WANT to use the fresh ones...lol

 

[sawlight]

Without an expensive load tester there really isn't a way to test them.
The simple thing is to use a known good one, get a rough runtime on it, then use a questionable battery and see if it's runtime is about the same or a lot shorter. Most times it's pretty obvious when a battery is dying.

 

[Baditude]

Slightly here...

I acknowledge that years ago that AW was widely thought to re-wrap batteries, after some sort of determining which batteries to buy and re-sell under the AW brand name. However, its my personal opinion that AW does in fact actually manufacture at least some of their batteries. I have no proof of this, but merely circumstantial observations made over the years.

AW are the initials of Andrew Wan, who owns a China-based company who at one time "allegedly" purchased large quantities of batteries from the better Japanese manufacturers and performed quality tests on each one, because not all batteries are created equal. Once the battery passed the quality tests of AW's standards of quality, they slapped on a new wrapper and added their AW label to it.

When there were only ICR batteries available (before IMR), the label on AW batteries said, "Assembled in China, Cell and IC made in Japan". This seems to support the theory that AW batteries were "re-wraps".



The above rumors aside, I personally believe that AW is not re-wrapping batteries made by other manufacturers any more. I suspect that at least some of AW IMR batteries are manufactured by AW in China. I suspect AW made enough money re-wrapping others batteries that he was able to invest in a battery manufacturing plant in China.

I make this assumption because AW was the very first company to offer a high drain IMR battery on the market, and the Japanese manufacturers do not make high quality IMR batteries in 14500, 18350, or 18490 sizes. AW does offer high quality IMR batteries in this size, so who is actually manufacturing these cells? I believe it is AW.

Plus, today's AW batteries say only, "Made in China". The one exception is the "new" AW 18650 3000mAh 20 amp model, which says it is made in Korea. Mooch suspects it may actually be an LG HG2 re-wrap.
AW 20A 3000mAh Flat-Top 18650 Bench Test Results...a good high-capacity 20A battery, could be an HG2.


Just my opinion, folks.

 

[Assi]

Some Information to AW and I hope I make myself no enemy.
AW was a pioneer in offering Li-Ion batteries (mainly 18650) for LEd Flashlights with PCB (Protection Circuit Board). AW used to purchase the Li-Ion cells from Panasonic (mainly) and let them being assembled in China.
At a Point, in which you assemble a battery with a PCB, a new product is being created, so it is not re-wraping.
Later AW was smart enough to become a supplier of Provari and joined the market of eCigs. At this Point, we are talking already about Re-wraping, because the battery has no additional assembly (just maybe a Button-Top).
AW is not a manufacturer of batteries and is not listed on UL-Database. AW like Efest and Co. buys 18650 from one of the "big 4" (Samsung, LG, Sony, Panasonic) and we-wrap it. The main difference to other Chinese so-called "Brand" - AW understands something from "Branding" and Keep high Level of reliability and honesty.
Regarding all those "Special" sizes like 18490, 18500, 14500, 26650 etc. - from the "big 4" the variety is very small. LG and Samsung has no cylindrical batteries in those sizes, Panasonic mainly High-Capacity and Sony as an exception has 14500 and 26650 with High-Power.
This Market is being "left" for Chinese manufacturer...and some of them are really good. Warren Buffet f.e. invested 2008 lots of Money into BYD (Build Your Dream), in order to get into the Chinese market with electric cars.
AW identify small-medium size Li-Ion battery manufacturer from China and buy from them OEM batteries.
Most of those Li-ion manufacturer have very limited range of batteries, most of them are Assembling with those batteries battery packs for other consumer devices like RC-Drones and RC-Helicopters. In fact most of those High-Power Li-Ion batteries are used at RC and not in eCigs.
I don´t believe that AW is in a Position to open their own manufacturing Plant. I know some good Chinese manufacturer of Li-Ion batteries like YLE and McNair. Just from selling few tousend of 18350, or 18500 batteries in a month, you don´t really in a Position for that.

 

[Baditude]

Some Information to AW and I hope I make myself no enemy....

You will get no quarrel from me, just a friendly debate. I appreciate the insights that you add to this forum. I would like to point out some observations that don't make sense to me, though.

If AW didn't make the following batteries, who did?

• "old" AW 18650 IMR 1600mah 24Amp CDR - this battery had unique amp and capacity specifications not shared by any other brand/model that I am aware of.

• "old" AW 18490 IMR 1100mah 16.5Amp CDR - this battery had unique amp and capacity specifications, too.

Who's making these batteries, if not AW?

• "new" AW 18490 IMR 1200mAh 18Amp CDR - this battery has unique amp and capacity specifications not shared by any other brand/model that I am aware of. (Efest and Imren both "sell" a 18490 battery, but don't share the same current handling nor performance of the AW. To my knowledge LG, Panasonic, Samsung, Sanyo, and Sony don't sell an 18490 IMR battery.)

• "new AW 18650 IMR 2200mAh 20Amp CDR - this IMR battery has amp, capacity and dimension specifications not shared by any other brand/model that I'm aware of. Dimensions : 65.6mm (L) x 18.15 (D)

If we try to compare the above "new" 18650 AW side-by-side with similar offerings from Sony, Panasonic, Samsung, and LG, we will find no similarities. (cell dimensions per RTD Vapor and Orbtronics)
​

Sony VTC4 2100mAh 30Amp(?) CDR, dimensions: 65.00mm (L) x 18.20 mm (D)
Sony VTC5 2600mAh 20Amp CDR, dimensions: 65.20mm (L) x 18.35 mm (D)
Panasonic/Sanyo UR18650NSX 2600mAh 20Amp CDR, dimensions: 65.30mm (L) x 18.50mm (D)
Orbtronics SX22 2000mAh 22Amp CDR, dimensions: 65mm 65.30mm (L) x 18.50 mm (D)
Samsung 25R 2600mAh 20Amp CDR, dimensions: 64.85mm (L) x 18.33mm (D)
LG HG2 2600mAh 20Amp CDR, dimensions: 65mm (L) x 18.5mm (D)​

I know many "re-wrappers" will exaggerate their battery specifications, but AW is notoriously not known to do so. LG, Samsung, and Sony do not typically exaggerate their specifications either.

I guess my point is, if the recognized "big four" battery manufacturers (LG, Panasonic, Samsung [including Sanyo], and Sony) are not selling (and manufacturing?) IMR batteries in 14500, 18350, and 18490 configurations, where are the re-wrappers (AW, Efest, Imren, etc) getting their batteries from?

And as I stated earlier, I have no proof of my hunches, just circumstancial observations. My thoughts are just conjecture.

 

[Assi]

Hi Batitude, I would need some few days to give you a good answer, but regarding 18650...most probably you would be able to recognize the manufacturer according to its Plus-side. LG, Panasonic, Sanyo, Sony and SDI are using very often the same ventilation system in their batteries. Sony has f.e. 3 ventilation holes, LG 4 round ones, SDI 3 round ones (very similar to Sony). If AW batteries having different systems, they would be most probably Chinese made. It is still no evaluation on the quality of AW batteries, but a fact
In few days I will get into my UL-database and check things out for you....