Why are people so defensive on this site?

[flowerpots]

I'm new here and not wanting to ruffle feathers, but I read this thread and wanted to make a few comments, just my 2 cents

As a person with allergies (though not e-cig related) I know how hard it is to both find products you can use and how difficult it can be to get those answers you need in order to make informed decisions for yourself.

I have noticed in e-cig forums that there is a general tendency to run into walls on this issue. I don't think the wall is always purposefully put there, but I notice it anyway. If someone is facing the possibility of anaphalaxis when using certain products (peanuts, berries, etc.), then that is a valid question.This is a real concern for some people. I have to have epipens with me at all times to prevent reactions long enough to get to the hospital for medical attention for certain triggers. So, someone asking for disclosure of certain/specific ingredients, not proprietary formulas, is not unreasonable. But, it is also common to find the same types of walls with food in restaurants, so I know this is across the board and not just specific to e-cig vendors.

If you have concerns over the safety of vaping, that is also a valid concern. I am of the mindset that I vape because it's safer than smoking, not because I find it to be the most wholesome habit to take up. But, that's my decision for myself. Arming yourself with knowledge is the best thing anyone can do. So, read, read, read, then read some more to validate what you previously read. For some, they want to vape the safest way they can, and there's nothing wrong with that (kudos to them!).

If you encounter defensiveness when asking vendors legitimate questions, then my suggestion is move on to another one.

If you encounter it in the forums, then you just accept human nature for what it is, flawed and tempered by emotions. Someone said this earlier also, that the written word can be misconstrued, misunderstood quite easily. Maybe they were defensive, maybe they weren't. But, don't let that stop you from getting the answers you want and deserve as a consumer.

 

[Haylee Salyer]

hi im new but i wonder the same sometimes however im not as thoughtful as you are if you do find out please share the info

 

[Borescoped]

Oh, another thing, phrasing your topic the way you did.

That automatically made anyone that replied to it defensive from the start, wording the way you have been has not been helping at all. An accusatory topic and post are not a good way to get what you are looking for.

"Sometimes it's not what you are saying, but how you say it."

 

[glowplug]

Thank you. I am realizing my questions are just too specific and too technical- probably from 35 years of being a pharmacist and knowing every possible detail about every product readily available to me.

Too technical and detailed for this forum? I worked in the health care field for over 25 years. I have more information (and trivia) stored in this addled pate than many doctors but certainly not as much as a good pharmacist. I have enlightened more than one pharmacist regarding medication side effects and drug interactions because I fully research(ed) all medications taken by my patients, family and friends. I can't tell you how many docs and pharms were completely in the dark about the horrendous effects Chantix was having because they only read the package insert (during the early days).

Am I defensive? Maybe just a little. There are people here from all walks of life and the information available is absolutely mind boggling! I am in awe of the cumulative knowledge of this wonderful group of people who volunteer to help others. They do it out a desire to offer others what they have found: A safer way to quit smoking and a great hobby! I feel as though your comment was condescending and unnecessary. That is my inference. It may not have been your implication and I can offer the benefit of the doubt.

To answer one of your points that may not be readily apparent to some others reading this: yes, there are artificial sweeteners that become "unstable" at higher temperatures. For example, you can bake with Splenda by not Nutrasweet. The latter tastes bitter when heated but great in iced tea! None of them are proven healthy and there are numerous conflicting views regarding their safety. I have seen that sweeteners used in *many* eliquids were of the sucralose variety. This is more stable under heat. I assumed that was the reason it was used but I have never asked the question.

I am surprised that you could not obtain the answers you sought if you spoke with the companies directly. Every contact I have had with the manufacturers of eliquid has been quite satisfactory. Questions answered. If answers were unavailable, I received an email within a few days with a well researched, concise answer to my question.

Remember, the package inserts list EVERYTHING that happened during the drug trial, not just the results of an actual causal relationship with the compound in question. While informative, they are often the very reason a person will forego the medication they so desperately need. Can and may happen do not mean WILL.

If you are actually vaping for fun and pleasure, good luck with your journey! If you are taking a stroll down the trollpath, YOU GOT ME!

 

[StereoDreamer]

YES- thank you- that is why I was asking because eating and inhaling are not at all the same. Someone did answer that since sugar gunks up the equipment, artificial sweeteners are used. I don't use artificial sweeteners even in food so I will probably just stop vaping. I was just vaping for the flavors (not nicotine) so it will be the route I go.

Lots of DIY folks use Stevia as a sweetener (I do). It is not "sugar" (glucose or fructose) AND it is not "artificial". Just because you don't care to use artificial sweeteners, and don't want to worry bout sugar gunking up your coils, doesn't mean you have to give up sweet-tasting vapes.

There are a LOT of things that will gunk up a coil, and sugar is just one. Many naturally-extracted tobacco flavors will gunk up a coil in no time flat, s will certain fruit flavors, and coffee flavors are NOTORIOUS for trashing coils.

Just sayin'...

 

[The Ocelot]

All except the secret "Ingredients" anyways

Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.

Special Sauce????????????

 

[StereoDreamer]

"Defensive" is not the same as obnoxious or unfriendly or snooty.

"Defensive" is an attitude people adopt to DEFEND themselves when they feel they are being unjustly or unfairly attacked.

So maybe if people respond to your posts "defensively" it's because they feel you are coming across as attacking them, or being negative, or you are coming off as a mean-spirited troll.

Perhaps if your tone wasn't so haughty, accusatory and snarky right out of the chute, people would respond with more kindness and openness and helpfulness.

Just sayin'...

 

[StereoDreamer]

Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.

Special Sauce????????????

You don't even want to know. But I suspect it's "hand made"...

 

[glowplug]

Lots of DIY folks use Stevia as a sweetener (I do). It is not "sugar" (glucose or fructose) AND it is not "artificial". Just because you don't care to use artificial sweeteners, and don't want to worry bout sugar gunking up your coils, doesn't mean you have to give up sweet-tasting vapes.

There are a LOT of things that will gunk up a coil, and sugar is just one. Many naturally-extracted tobacco flavors will gunk up a coil in no time flat, s will certain fruit flavors, and coffee flavors are NOTORIOUS for trashing coils.

Just sayin'...

Thank you! I was wondering about Stevia.

I might also add, not all flavors have sweeteners. Don't know which ones do, but I have a good guess when I vape them.

I do agree with previous posters and I have wondered the same thing: safe to ingest does not necessarily mean safe to inhale. But, it does seem to indicate that the presence in the blood stream is not an issue since both avenues lead there. I worry a bit about pg and vg in my lungs. But I no longer have to worry about the other several hundred chemicals that are NOT in my lungs since I replaced smoking with vaping. I am in far less danger now than I was just over two months ago and I am happy as a lil pig in mud vaping my flavorful juices!

 

[glowplug]

You don't even want to know. But I suspect it's "hand made"...

let me say this to that: eeeewwwww!

 

[alkaz77]

i think we are all concerning about our health to be defensive about liquids

 

[DoogieTony]

You could always buy a bottle of unflavored. Ingredient list: Pg,vg, and nicotine

 

[Leithan]

Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.

Special Sauce????????????

Only if you want to "be the Burger"

 

[Leithan]

I'm new here and not wanting to ruffle feathers, but I read this thread and wanted to make a few comments, just my 2 cents

As a person with allergies (though not e-cig related) I know how hard it is to both find products you can use and how difficult it can be to get those answers you need in order to make informed decisions for yourself.

I have noticed in e-cig forums that there is a general tendency to run into walls on this issue. I don't think the wall is always purposefully put there, but I notice it anyway. If someone is facing the possibility of anaphalaxis when using certain products (peanuts, berries, etc.), then that is a valid question.This is a real concern for some people. I have to have epipens with me at all times to prevent reactions long enough to get to the hospital for medical attention for certain triggers. So, someone asking for disclosure of certain/specific ingredients, not proprietary formulas, is not unreasonable. But, it is also common to find the same types of walls with food in restaurants, so I know this is across the board and not just specific to e-cig vendors.

If you have concerns over the safety of vaping, that is also a valid concern. I am of the mindset that I vape because it's safer than smoking, not because I find it to be the most wholesome habit to take up. But, that's my decision for myself. Arming yourself with knowledge is the best thing anyone can do. So, read, read, read, then read some more to validate what you previously read. For some, they want to vape the safest way they can, and there's nothing wrong with that (kudos to them!).

If you encounter defensiveness when asking vendors legitimate questions, then my suggestion is move on to another one.

If you encounter it in the forums, then you just accept human nature for what it is, flawed and tempered by emotions. Someone said this earlier also, that the written word can be misconstrued, misunderstood quite easily. Maybe they were defensive, maybe they weren't. But, don't let that stop you from getting the answers you want and deserve as a consumer.

But you do your do diligence and research, for my health I'm not going to rely on answers from a forum. I have a nickle allergy, not life threatening by a long shot. I have spent countless hours on researching in what and where I could encounter nickle. I don't even risk restaurant silverware because some alloys used in the manufacture of silverware contains high levels of nickle. I don't bother asking the waitress what the metal content of the flat wear is. I just bring my own Titanium Spork. We all deserve to know what it is we are putting into our bodies, manufactures "should" tell us, but I'm not going to rely on it. If the only info I could wring out of the juice vender was that their juice contained their Propriety 11 herbs and spices, I would take my money else where.

P.S. Just reread my post, I'm agreeing with you Flowerpots......my feathers weren't ruffled. My post might of looked like I was disagreeing with you.

 

[March 23 2013]

After reading the label and info on HIGH Efficiency light bulbs. I now have the government approved "HAZ MAT" team dispose of them properly. Relatively expensive but im helping to save the planet.

I have also moved 3 times now because i actually broke 3 bulbs and i will not live in a house that a bulb has been broken in. You should have seen the look of the prospective buyers face when i disclosed that.

i know this is off topic but thought everyone should be fully aware of the dangers with using these things.

 

[The Ocelot]

After reading the label and info on HIGH Efficiency light bulbs. I now have the government approved "HAZ MAT" team dispose of them properly. Relatively expensive but im helping to save the planet.

I have also moved 3 times now because i actually broke 3 bulbs and i will not live in a house that a bulb has been broken in. You should have seen the look of the prospective buyers face when i disclosed that.

i know this is off topic but thought everyone should be fully aware of the dangers with using these things.

You sold your house because you broke a light bulb?

 

[Confusednoobie]

You said earlyer, you are asking in the wrong place, I would expect that if you were conducting research you would go to the source.

Asking a question on an internet forum will get you nothing but opinions. Some of your replys sounded accusatory, which makes people less not more inclined to help you. I believe you said you were a Pharmacist, you wouldn't pole all the customers in a "Rite Aid" about possibly harmful substances in a drug before you decided to prescribe it right? As a medical practitioner you should be more then familiar with the research proses. Artificial sweeteners are used in a lot of juices because they are less likely to gunk up coils. There a few juice makers who claim to be all natural and organic.
What I don't understand is the line of questioning. If you don't want to vape something that could be potentially harmful then don't. I think I read you vape 0 nic. If that's the case, why vape at all. Also your inability to use the lingo, i.e. "smoke Juice" instead of nic juice, E-liquid, or just damn "Juice" is starting to make me feel like your asking these questions with an ulterior motive. You say your a medical professional, I say you should of known where these answers could be found and it's not on an internet forum. You stated you have 35 years as a Pharmacist and the technical training that goes with it. I don't, but I can use Google and with in two minutes I found enough data to convince me I would be fine, to include a great interview with the owner of Virgin Vapors, she goes into exhaustive detail about her ingredients and mixing techniques.
Many people DIY their own juice, they are more then happy to post their recipes and techniques, I can't believe that they vary much from juice venders other then being on a smaller scale.

Smoke Juice is what JC calls it and I am using the VEA and the JC juices so that is the "lingo" I used. As a scientist, I prefer independent research whenever possible over what you call the "source" which is generally not trustworthy as they have a vested interest in presenting their products in the best light and promoting it. No? Commonly called advertising. That would be like me, as a Pharmacist believing everything that big Pharma says. That is not remotely true. We mistrust the manufacturer and the industry and seek double blind independent studies and trust what the patients report to us and report those findings. Since nothing like that is available with e-cigs, I asked the users. But you are right about not finding anything here in this forum beyond opinions. I was wrong to expect more- any evidence based analysis-any objective assessment- an interest in knowing what is in a product etc. But now I know better.

 

[Confusednoobie]

I just saw the amount of visits this thread has gotten in 3 hours, and wanted to say thank you.
ECF and members for answering many many many questions i have about vaping.

Most i find without asking, they are already here, and i thank the staff and members for that.

Yes, can't keep up.

 

[Confusednoobie]

I'm new here and not wanting to ruffle feathers, but I read this thread and wanted to make a few comments, just my 2 cents

As a person with allergies (though not e-cig related) I know how hard it is to both find products you can use and how difficult it can be to get those answers you need in order to make informed decisions for yourself.

I have noticed in e-cig forums that there is a general tendency to run into walls on this issue. I don't think the wall is always purposefully put there, but I notice it anyway. If someone is facing the possibility of anaphalaxis when using certain products (peanuts, berries, etc.), then that is a valid question.This is a real concern for some people. I have to have epipens with me at all times to prevent reactions long enough to get to the hospital for medical attention for certain triggers. So, someone asking for disclosure of certain/specific ingredients, not proprietary formulas, is not unreasonable. But, it is also common to find the same types of walls with food in restaurants, so I know this is across the board and not just specific to e-cig vendors.

If you have concerns over the safety of vaping, that is also a valid concern. I am of the mindset that I vape because it's safer than smoking, not because I find it to be the most wholesome habit to take up. But, that's my decision for myself. Arming yourself with knowledge is the best thing anyone can do. So, read, read, read, then read some more to validate what you previously read. For some, they want to vape the safest way they can, and there's nothing wrong with that (kudos to them!).

If you encounter defensiveness when asking vendors legitimate questions, then my suggestion is move on to another one.

If you encounter it in the forums, then you just accept human nature for what it is, flawed and tempered by emotions. Someone said this earlier also, that the written word can be misconstrued, misunderstood quite easily. Maybe they were defensive, maybe they weren't. But, don't let that stop you from getting the answers you want and deserve as a consumer.

Very well put. There is a saying, nothing is real unless it is happening to you. I always think about safety first both by training and from witnessing and experiencing many ADRs (Adverse drug reactions) first hand. But I did indeed ruffle feathers.

 

[Confusednoobie]

Oh, another thing, phrasing your topic the way you did.

That automatically made anyone that replied to it defensive from the start, wording the way you have been has not been helping at all. An accusatory topic and post are not a good way to get what you are looking for.

"Sometimes it's not what you are saying, but how you say it."

Yes, absolutely...but I started out by just asking questions to enable an informed decision and since I was really surprised by an attitude- almost like suspicion(?) that it provoked, so this was the best way to get to the why of it. I am reading all the responses since I initiated the thread but this will probably be my last visit to this "forum".