Why do people think it's acceptable for online vendors to shut down their ordering systems?

[Heavyrocker]

Too many people,not enuff product,for Gods sake,fasttech can hardly keep up.

 

[flowerpots]

It's absolutely acceptable in this market, which I find really odd, but people who want a certain juice or mod or whatever will overpay, blow out the f5 on the keyboard, and deal with customer service that in other industries could only be described as abuse. Tons of people do it all the time. They may complain about it, but they keep doing it.

Your only recourse is to vote with your wallet and not patronize those vendors.

It's not just in this industry, though. It's seen in the wine industry where you have a crop of grapes and what you have to work with via strategic planning and mother nature is what you get. It's in the food industry. It's in the art industry. It's in the clothing industry to some point.

I think what is unique about this industry is that the majority of the vendors are small businesses, not corporations, not mass-producing, and cater to what is a relatively small customer base compared to other industries. As the vaping community grows, if it is allowed to grow here in the U.S., you will see bigger companies come up that will always have the product you want in stock, but you will also find a reduced quality. Everything mass produced lacks the quality of an artisan, a master craftsman. Wal-Mart may always have that shampoo you like or that TV you want to buy for the spare bedroom at a decent price, but you also are not buying custom-blended hair products, but instead products with ingredients you can't pronounce because they are included to keep the item good 20+ years on the stocking shelves in warehouses until they are purchased. I see people complain about e-liquid ingredients, have concern over their level of harm or unnaturalness, wanting to ensure they have a good, quality product. The way I see it, you can't have it both ways. If you want a product that is hand-mixed to your specifications, with assurance that it is fresh and healthy (i.e. doesn't contain ingredients to keep it from souring), then you have to be patient enough to wait for this process.

I know some companies seem to operate on a "as I feel like" basis. I'm sure some do. I'm not talking about them, though. I mean the truly great vendors out there who have limited business hours, even online, in order to keep their QC and QA measures in tact, who do not wish to grow beyond being a small business (at least for now). To do otherwise would not only jeopardize the integrity of the product, but also bypass their business model of being a boutique vendor. There is strategy there, not just wanton disregard for the customer.

Buying power is about the most important and impacting recourse we have in a free market....that and word-of-mouth reputation. Despite what a crappy company Wal-Mart is, people flock there everyday, willing to take sub-par products in some cases, and use that power in a bad way ot do anything except help the U.S economy. At least when you buy from vendors, at least 90% of them, you are buying products made by citizens, and building a community that helps one another instead of just making the bottom-line profit.

My ex-husband has his own business. Ten years ago, it grew to the point where he was making deliveries all up and down the East Coast, running himself ragged, having to deal with more and more employees, increased paperwork, facing the prospect of having to borrow money to increase capacity to meet the demand, etc. etc.

He took a step back and said that that wasn't what he wanted. Closed down most of the business (well, sold parts of it off).

A good friend of his went the opposite way - borrowed money, bought several warehouses, a factory - well, you get the idea.

The friend almost lost everything when the economy tanked but he's ok now. He's probably worth more than my ex. But I guarantee my ex has enjoyed his life more. He's a wonderful father, spends lots of time with our sons, goes on frequent vacations, etc. etc.

Maybe the vendors you're complaining about made the same decision my ex did. Nothing wrong with that. They have the freedom to make that choice, just as you have the freedom to go elsewhere.

This is another good point, vendors choose to remain small, it's a calculated decision.

I don't understand - would you have them working 16 hours a day 7 days a week just to ensure you get your juice in 5 days?

However, Wally World usually gets it back in within a day or two and in quantities that don't sell out within minutes.

They can get stock that fast because there are warehouses full of goods sitting there waiting to be sold.

It comes down to buying from mass retailers versus buying from a craftsman, you want mass produced items or do you want handcrafted products? In a way it is similar to the "buy originals or clones" argument. The clones are mass produced at the cost of quality and the originals are handmade with a high degree of attention to quality but in much lower quantity.

Personally I find it commendable that people understand their limitations and refuse to oversell their production capabilities. I prefer fresh baked bread and shop at a small bakery that only produces "X" number of products a day, when they sell out that morning's production that is it for the day, with some products that take longer to make they only offer them a few days a week. To me the quality is worth the hassle...I don't eat Wonder bread...

Brings up another point. Why not make your own juice/device/topper/etc?

Exactly!

 

[lunchbox68]

As someone that has spent years working in the food service industry as well as retail, I have to disagree with the OP. There are a lot of juice vendors out there that are selling mass produced stuff (Wal Mart), then there are the small mom and pop artisans that hand craft every bottle. When you compare juice to food, it's like going to Olive Garden verses going to a small family owned Italian place that has an old lady in the kitchen in a black dress making the sauce. In Houston, the food truck scene is huge right now, and you'll wait in line to get that epic street food creation that the crazy foodie genius in the truck came up with. The food trucks are only open for a limited time in the day and rarely in the same spot twice. You follow them on Facebook, or a food truck tracker app to know when and where they'll be. Why? Because their stuff is that good, and you're willing to jump through the hoops to score up that Korean BBQ taco that you can't get anywhere else. I don't think it's applicable to hold every retailer to the same standard. If you want Wal Mart and Olive Garden, then shop there. If you want quality, customer service and to support small business, then shop at the mom and pop places.

I read all the hype about Alice in Vapeland, so I checked out their site. While the shopping portion of the site was closed, I was still able to check out every flavour and read all the review. I set an alarm, got up an hour early and placed my order. Did I mind having to do this? No. I may change my answer after I try their stuff, but overall, I'm willing to be patient to get something that's a cut above what everyone else has. I also had no problem ordering a bottle of Boba’s Bounty from AVE, but maybe I just got lucky.

I know that we as consumers feel entitled to instant gratification. But I honestly feel that this mentality is a little childish. But if we're willing to a step back from the, "ME WANT NOW!! ME NO PAY FULL PRICE!! ME WANT SAME GOOD STUFF AT CHEAP PRICE!!" consumer model, small business will thrive and your local economy will improve.

counter rant ends.

 

[DoogieTony]

I think It's fine. If the vendors product is desired enough people will wait for it.
If you don't agree, don't wait, there's plenty of other vendors that'll take your cash.

There are "real world" examples of this too. I've been to burger joints that only serve so many each day. When they meet that number they close, but people still go daily because their product is so good.

I think there's a place for boutique shops as well as McDonalds and Walmart.

 

[Kycap]

This is the problem I have as well. I went to cloud9 because I was looking into the Kayfun RBAs only to be met with a "closed" page. Really?! Ok, I get it, you aren't selling anything, but I can't even look at what you have for sale?

There was a reason for the above, the vendors wife was seriously ill in hospital so the site opened every other day, this was clearly stated on the web site home page.

 

[dr g]

In another industry I'm involved in, there are countless small shops and service providers that went belly-up when business started taking off. They simply failed to prioritize and control the amount of business they were doing. Many of these shops shut down and ran off with customers' gear and/or money.

There is absolutely, positively, ZERO wrong with shutting down online ordering any time you damn well please.

 

[lunchbox68]

Too many people,not enuff product,for Gods sake,Fasttech can hardly keep up.

Even Fasttech was closed the other day for some national holiday. Try doing business in Norway. It seems like things close up early or shut down all together all the time. It's National dirt on the ground day. Sorry, we're closed. It's one of the three days of summer and I don't need a jacket or sweater to be outside. Sorry, we're closed today.

 

[Screamin Eagle]

It comes down to buying from mass retailers versus buying from a craftsman, you want mass produced items or do you want handcrafted products? In a way it is similar to the "buy originals or clones" argument. The clones are mass produced at the cost of quality and the originals are handmade with a high degree of attention to quality but in much lower quantity.

Personally I find it commendable that people understand their limitations and refuse to oversell their production capabilities. I prefer fresh baked bread and shop at a small bakery that only produces "X" number of products a day, when they sell out that morning's production that is it for the day, with some products that take longer to make they only offer them a few days a week. To me the quality is worth the hassle...I don't eat Wonder bread...

Can I like this post twice? I was thinking the exact same thing while reading through this thread.

I make hand crafted items myself (I dare not say what in here for fear of being accused of trying to advertise them), but I can only make so many items at a time. At current my build time is about two days. But if I get a bunch of orders I may have to increase that time. But I know that my product is like no other on the market. It may be similer, but I know it's made better.
Many of these vendors are the same way. They take in as many orders as they know they can put out in a certin amount of time. They hand craft these items from raw materials and dump as much quality into their products as they can. What you get is a product that no machine can reproduce. Or no company, with their eye solely on profits, is willing to produce.

I personaly comend these people for not only bringing back the concept of putting quality first, but also keeping their prices competitive. For all intent and purpose they could up their price so that it meets demand. But then you would be complaining about their prices.

So lets boil it all down in a different perspective.
If you could buy a car that was built better then anything Detroit offers, in the color you want, with all the options you want in it for the same price as one sitting on the lot that is a different color then you want, and doesn't have a few of those bells and whistles you've always wanted in it, but you had to wait 3 weeks to get it, would you buy it?

Just remember this......"You pay for speed. You wait for quality".

 

[crxess]

Doesn't matter to me if a business is on line or B & M. Business Standards and operation are up to the owner and no one has the right to demand they do otherwise.
Your choice is to do or not do business with each.

I owned and operated a business for 25 years. 6 days, 12 hrs. a day and all I ever heard were complaints.
You don't open until when?
Why do you close at 9? Other stores are open until 10
You're not open Sundays?
Why don't you have credit?(I'm not the bank!)
And a thousand other daily challenges to deal with.

25 years of that was enough for me..........Business closed!

Mods posting inflammatory threads.................

Business owners are people also and maybe there are reasons you haven't asked about or just don't care to know.

Guess you struck a nerve
Off the soap box
Sorry about that
Vape - Calm - Vape - Calm

Better now.

 

[retired1]

Thread was posted before said OP was a mod.

 

[cmdebrecht]

Now, the occasional "out of stock" can be excused. But to have it happen on a regular basis? Unacceptable in my book. And sites that shut down because they're behind in fulfilling orders is just plain inexcusable.

If your local store that you frequent on a regular basis did this, you'd stop going there. In fact, you'd most likely howl in outrage that a local business would do something like that. So why is this behavior acceptable for online vendors?


Happens all the time in the real retail world...Ever see Wal Mart and Toys r Us on Black Friday? The Apple Store the day a new iPhone is released? Sometimes the things I want are out of stock.

I would much rather know exactly when I can order juice from one of my faves than A) Stalking the website all day long hoping to get lucky, or B) Placing an order and not receiving the product until 3 weeks after I've paid for it.

So many Americans demand instant gratification and have lowered expectations of quality in doing so. Give me high quality product later raher than McCrap now.

 

[Whosback]

For me it's okay for several reasons.

1: Many venders make juice to order and if you get a lot of orders for a specific juice you might want to hold off on new orders so you can take care of the customers who have already payed rather then chasing new business that you can't handle yet.

2: Quality over quantity. If I have to wait for a vender to make an order to a standard of quality I would rather wait and get the better product then something rushed through to meet an order.

3: many of these business are small they don't have the ability to hire on staff or the stability established to do so.

4: Golden rule of vaping is backups for your backups. If I like a juice I always have one full bottle of it at all time and order up when I am running out of the one I am currently vaping.

This is what works for me. however we are all different and you are free to judge a business on your standards.

 

[thefullhonkey]

For me it's okay for several reasons.

1: Many venders make juice to order and if you get a lot of orders for a specific juice you might want to hold off on new orders so you can take care of the customers who have already payed rather then chasing new business that you can't handle yet.

2: Quality over quantity. If I have to wait for a vender to make an order to a standard of quality I would rather wait and get the better product then something rushed through to meet an order.

3: many of these business are small they don't have the ability to hire on staff or the stability established to do so.

4: Golden rule of vaping is backups for your backups. If I like a juice I always have one full bottle of it at all time and order up when I am running out of the one I am currently vaping.

This is what works for me. however we are all different and you are free to judge a business on your standards.

I agree with all of these points. I'd also like to add to your second point, touching on quality of service. I recently placed my first order with Jugheads (a small Canadian company) that is typically only open for ordering during small, intermittent windows. By working on a quota system, he ensures 100% top-notch customer service. Upon placing my order, I received a confirmation e-mail to ensure the contents were right and had an opportunity to make corrections if necessary. Upon submitting payment, I received another confirmation as well as a shipping promise (this will 100% be in the mail by end of day on...) As it happens, the package actually arrived today, the date that it was supposed to be shipped by - way ahead of schedule in other words. It was a bit of a pain to actually get an order in due to the demand (I kept missing the ordering window), but I can honestly say the service is the best I've EVER received from ANY only vendor. In the case Jugheads, the demand is definitely there to justify expanding/further commercializing the business. But I get the impression that he's intentionally keeping it small so he can do things right and I really respect and appreciate that. He's keeping things at a level that works for him, and it's really paying off IMO. Not being able to order at my convience is more than outweighed by the personalized, quirky service that he provides. It reminds me of a time when genuine customer care and personal touches ruled supreme over logistics and efficiency, something that our de personalized would could surely use more of.

 

[crxess]

Thread was posted before said OP was a mod.

So it was!
We all have our opinions and expectations.
No problem - Been on both sides of this coin.

 

[CaliforniaGirl]

I don't worry about it very much, I just go to the next vendor (or buy locally). If they're not concerned about keeping up business, that's not my problem. Unfortunately, I am a product of an on-demand society and trust me, most vendors have plenty of competition.

I don't hold it against them or get annoyed or anything, I just go to the next guy.

 

[Zedd]

Maybe some people aren't interested in expanding their business in order to meet bigger demand. Maybe the $ they are making with the current demand is enough for them and they aren't interested in the extra work and hassle of hiring more people, renting a bigger place, dealing with more supply. Or may they can't reliably keep up with the supply that an increase in orders would need.

There's a million reasons why a company would close down their online site. I don't really think it's a big deal to have to purchase liquid at a certain time of day or on a certain day, and if I did I would just buy somewhere else. What is the big deal? It's either worth it or it isn't, we make decisions like this all the time.

 

[unsure]

Would you (OP) be less upset it you sent money and waited 2-3 weeks to get your order. It is what it is and you have other options.

 

[tanzmitpalmer]

This happens quite a bit in the indie beauty community. In fact, people get more upset if people DON'T shut down their carts when the order queue gets too long, because it threatens the 45-day Paypal dispute window. As long as it doesn't come with a bad attitude (blaming customers for their popularity), it's fine.

In the end, what's the difference? You can pay now and wait three weeks before it gets to your door, or pay a week later and get it a week quicker, since the queue is much shorter. I'd rather pay later and get it quicker.

 

[supermarket]

This is something that has me scratching my head. There are a few well known sites that regularly shut down their ordering system because they're either so far behind in fulfilling orders, or they're out of stock.

Now, the occasional "out of stock" can be excused. But to have it happen on a regular basis? Unacceptable in my book. And sites that shut down because they're behind in fulfilling orders is just plain inexcusable.

If your local store that you frequent on a regular basis did this, you'd stop going there. In fact, you'd most likely howl in outrage that a local business would do something like that. So why is this behavior acceptable for online vendors?

I refuse to do business with a vendor who makes me jump through THEIR hoops to make an order. Shopping cart is closed all day and won't open until 7pm? Screw that! Consistently out of stock and have to be lucky on the day you have a few bottles for sale? Not gonna happen. Rewarding that kind of behavior by continually buying from them only reinforces the belief it's acceptable. It's not acceptable. Not by a long shot.

It's time we start holding online vendors to the same standards that we expect of retailers who have a physical presence. I know I do. Why others don't is somewhat perplexing.

I don't see it as morally WRONG to do what they are doing. A business, so long as it is ethical and responsible, can run operations however they see fit.

Having said THAT - I agree with you that a consumer/customer shouldn't have to run through hopes to order a product. Therefore, I do NOT order from sites like that.

However, it seems that MANY people actually believe somehow it makes the product all that more desirable. The fact that it is HARD to get the eliquid/product....makes many customers want it even more (go figure).


Yea, businesses that do that don't get my money or business - however, it appears that many people end up desiring the product even more.

 

[patkin]

I live in an area where its common for local shops of all kinds to have odd business hours. Its also an area where the national-chain stores commonly don't carry what they do in other areas and hearing the stock-phrase "get it on the internet" is common. It has irked me ever since I moved here so I have my issues that make me not do business with net vendors closing down routinely or being routinely out of stock. Life is just too short dealing with that kind of frustration when I can spend the time shopping around and have invariably found more dependable vendors with just as good products elsewhere. I have found 5 that I regularly buy from without frustrations. I have no problem with others of different mindset than my own... except their assertions that they're somehow classier folks who prefer "quality" (very elitist and yucky) as experience has taught me one can get both dependability and quality if time is taken to shop. I maintain: to each their own whether vendor or customer.