Why do you guys vape?

[Barbchris]

Agreed on the bolded. We should separate the words nicotine and addiction until it's proven that nicotine alone has the power to cause addiction.

Maybe I SHOULD bore you with the physiology of nicotine addiction...

Without going into the plasticity of the nicotinergic receptors in the brain... All I'd have to tell you is I (along with MANY MANY others) have been addicted to nicotine GUM for 10 years! the gum base isn't addicting, the sugar costing doesn't cause me drive to the store in a storm to get more...

There is absolutely ZERO doubt in the scientific community that nicotine is one of the most addicting substance known to man. Suggesting it is not, while discussing an 18 y/o looking for a buzz is endorsing playing with fire. It's like saying "go ahead, vape away, you won't get hooked on it." The facts are clear: play around with vaping for a buzz & you WILL become addicted to nicotine.

I am not sure where you have gotten your info. There is not one singular reputable neuroscientist in the world who would dispute the addictive properties of nicotine.

 

[WattWick]

Maybe I SHOULD bore you with the physiology of nicotine addiction...

Without going into the plasticity of the nicotinergic receptors in the brain... All I'd have to tell you is I (along with MANY MANY others) have been addicted to nicotine GUM for 10 years! the gum base isn't addicting, the sugar costing doesn't cause me drive to the store in a storm to get more...

There is absolutely ZERO doubt in the scientific community that nicotine is one of the most addicting substance known to man. Suggesting it is not, while discussing an 18 y/o looking for a buzz is endorsing playing with fire. It's like saying "go ahead, vape away, you won't get hooked on it." The facts are clear: play around with vaping for a buzz & you WILL become addicted to nicotine.

I am not sure where you have gotten your info. There is not one singular reputable neuroscientist in the world who would dispute the addictive properties of nicotine.

While I have no scientific basis to disagree with you, I can't help but think of all the vapers (myself included) who see a noticeable difference between the desire to vape and the beast-like craving for a cigarette. Is there any chance the nicotine in gum has been treated/freebased like that in cigarettes? I truly have no idea and don't want to start any rumors. Just wondering if anyone knew something about it.

 

[AndriaD]

Relaxation. Hard to get a buzz from it as most of us are ex-smokers. Lungs/body already too used to nicotine. However nic sick happens pretty easily when chain vaping. Used to nic or not, a lot of it in a short time has caused me some nausea / dizzyness / weird heartbeat

I smoked for 39 years, but when I first started vaping, I had to get all the way down to 6mg before I stopped getting nic sick, though I had to go up a little once I finally quit smoking. Now I'm pretty happy at 10mg with a little WTA in the mix -- turns out I'm a lot more "addicted" to the minor alkaloids and MAOIs than to the nicotine, probably because the last 20 yrs I smoked, I smoked ultra-lights -- not a lot of nicotine in those but still with the regular amount of the other stuff.

Andria

 

[AndriaD]

While I have no scientific basis to disagree with you, I can't help but think of all the vapers (myself included) who see a noticeable difference between the desire to vape and the beast-like craving for a cigarette. Is there any chance the nicotine in gum has been treated/freebased like that in cigarettes? I truly have no idea and don't want to start any rumors. Just wondering if anyone knew something about it.

What the research has shown so far is that no one who was not previously a smoker has ever developed a dependance on nicotine. If one previously has been a smoker, then nicotine by itself is still somewhat dependence-producing, probably because the synergistic reaction between nicotine and the minor alkaloids of tobacco including MAOIs is what actually *caused* that "addiction" in the first place; nicotine by itself won't do it; it's apparently no more dependence-producing than caffeine. Caffeine does produce dependance and if you stop it abruptly, you'll suffer the mother of all headaches.

There's a big difference between "dependance" and "addiction." "Addiction" meant I would pass up food in order to buy cigarettes; dependance means I'll be uncomfortable if I don't vape, but I won't pass up food for it.

Andria

 

[WattWick]

What the research has shown so far is that no one who was not previously a smoker has ever developed a dependance on nicotine. If one previously has been a smoker, then nicotine by itself is still somewhat dependence-producing, probably because the synergistic reaction between nicotine and the minor alkaloids of tobacco including MAOIs is what actually *caused* that "addiction" in the first place; nicotine by itself won't do it; it's apparently no more dependence-producing than caffeine. Caffeine does produce dependance and if you stop it abruptly, you'll suffer the mother of all headaches.

There's a big difference between "dependance" and "addiction." "Addiction" meant I would pass up food in order to buy cigarettes; dependance means I'll be uncomfortable if I don't vape, but I won't pass up food for it.

Andria

This is sort of what I was under the impression of myself. That it took more than just the nicotine by itself.

Never heard about the part about the difference between smokers and non-smokers, tho. Interesting.

Still a bit curious about the nic gum. Does it contain WTAs and such?

Not at all trying to disprove the claim that nic gum is highly addictive. Never been on the gum myself. This just sparked a chain of thought that didn't instantly click with my current beliefs. As such I am intrigued and want to know more.

As for caffeine? I never managed to develop neither a dependence or some kind of addiction. Guess I'm lucky. I love my coffee and drink it every day. But I suffer no I'll effects if I go a few of days without, for whatever reason. (Just thinking out loud. Not going for thread tacowaffling)

 

[AndriaD]

Thought I'd better post some sources for what I posted about nicotine because I know someone is bound to come along with the equivalent of "yeahhuh! it is too!"

Nicotine Propaganda

Chemical Dependency and Nicotine

http://www.ecigarette-politics.com/the-great-nicotine-myth.html]

Nicotine Clinical Trials: Why Aren't There Any?


Those are all from rolygate's E-Cigarette Politics blog. This one is from CASAA:
Smoking & Nicotine

Andria

 

[AndriaD]

This is sort of what I was under the impression of myself. That it took more than just the nicotine by itself.

Never heard about the part about the difference between smokers and non-smokers, tho. Interesting.

Still a bit curious about the nic gum. Does it contain WTAs and such?

Not at all trying to disprove the claim that nic gum is highly addictive. Never been on the gum myself. This just sparked a chain of thought that didn't instantly click with my current beliefs. As such I am intrigued and want to know more.

As for caffeine? I never managed to develop neither a dependence or some kind of addiction. Guess I'm lucky. I love my coffee and drink it every day. But I suffer no I'll effects if I go a few of days without, for whatever reason. (Just thinking out loud. Not going for thread tacowaffling)

I doubt the gum contains any of the minor alkaloids or MAOIs; the WTA product was first marketed by aromaejuice in 2011, due to continuing dissatisfaction by some ex-smoker vapers with e-cigs, as so many find the pharma NRT products unsatisfying -- as such, WTA is the first product to contain the trace alkaloids along with nicotine, though of course aroma is no longer the only company that makes it.

I'm sure the nicotine in gum and other sources is every bit as dependence-producing as any other form of nicotine, but as I said, dependance and addiction are two entirely different animals, it's just that some people conflate them.

You're fortunate about caffeine; I would guess that you're just not as "vaso-responsive" as many people are. Caffeine constricts capillaries (as does nicotine), and when abruptly removed, those previously-constricted capillaries become engorged, which for most people causes a severe headache -- that is much the same physical action as migraine headaches, the engorgement of cranial capillaries, which is why caffeine or another vasoconstrictor is present in pretty much all migraine medicines.

Andria

 

[WattWick]

I doubt the gum contains any of the minor alkaloids or MAOIs; the WTA product was first marketed by aromaejuice in 2011, due to continuing dissatisfaction by some ex-smoker vapers with e-cigs, as so many find the pharma NRT products unsatisfying -- as such, WTA is the first product to contain the trace alkaloids along with nicotine, though of course aroma is no longer the only company that makes it.

I'm sure the nicotine in gum and other sources is every bit as dependence-producing as any other form of nicotine, but as I said, dependance and addiction are two entirely different animals, it's just that some people conflate them.

You're fortunate about caffeine; I would guess that you're just not as "vaso-responsive" as many people are. Caffeine constricts capillaries (as does nicotine), and when abruptly removed, those previously-constricted capillaries become engorged, which for most people causes a severe headache -- that is much the same physical action as migraine headaches, the engorgement of cranial capillaries, which is why caffeine or another vasoconstrictor is present in pretty much all migraine medicines.

Andria

Thanks a lot for your last couple of posts. Informative as always. Will certainly check those links.

 

[AndriaD]

When I first got here, I was under the nearly-universal impression that nicotine was "the most addictive substance known to man" and was absolutely toxic, along with the clearly-erroneous idea that anyone actually wants smokers to quit -- maybe the real ANTZ do, but apparently quitting smoking is about the last thing the gov't wants us to do, and BP only wants people to quit using THEIR products. I had to do a LOT of reading, both here and abroad in the web, to discover that those very-prevalent ideas about nicotine's "addictive" properties and toxicity are about 99.99% propaganda, fostered by the rabid ANTZ.

In its pure form, nicotine is of course very toxic, which is why ECF has such strict rules about not posting anything about nicotine that's more than 100mg/ml -- 10% concentration. But that 10% concentration is safe for "laymen" (like most of us) to handle, with moderate safety precautions -- gloves at the very least (nicotine absorbs very easily thru the skin), and a face/eye shield probably isn't a bad idea either, when working with a concentration that strong.

But most of what is "common knowledge" about nicotine is nothing but propaganda and misinformation; it's not a "Bad Guy." In fact, it seems to be quite a useful substance for a lot of problems -- although ADD wasn't known at all when I was young and first started smoking, it seems to be a real godsend for sharpening one's mental focus; and that may be just the tip of the iceberg.

Andria

 

[beckdg]

Maybe I SHOULD bore you with the physiology of nicotine addiction...

Without going into the plasticity of the nicotinergic receptors in the brain... All I'd have to tell you is I (along with MANY MANY others) have been addicted to nicotine GUM for 10 years! the gum base isn't addicting, the sugar costing doesn't cause me drive to the store in a storm to get more...

There is absolutely ZERO doubt in the scientific community that nicotine is one of the most addicting substance known to man. Suggesting it is not, while discussing an 18 y/o looking for a buzz is endorsing playing with fire. It's like saying "go ahead, vape away, you won't get hooked on it." The facts are clear: play around with vaping for a buzz & you WILL become addicted to nicotine.

I am not sure where you have gotten your info. There is not one singular reputable neuroscientist in the world who would dispute the addictive properties of nicotine.

you should check out the Severely Fantastic posts left here by AndriaD. there is some Absolutely Phenomenal correct information contained within them. definitely Do read through the links.

and please, do be careful what your posting if you're truly concerned of what we as a community is feeding to the ANTZ via our public posting.

 

[YKruss]

The word from good father:

 

[DC2]

There is absolutely ZERO doubt in the scientific community that nicotine is one of the most addicting substance known to man.

Absolutely, positively not true...
Some research on the seemingly minimal addictive potential of nicotine when divorced from tobacco...

 

[sub4me]

The word from good father:

That's a good video and makes a very valid point. I don't think were gonna see people out committing crimes to get tobacco or e liquid even though they consider themselves addicted to nicotine. It makes sense that's its more of a dependence not an addiction. Others who are truly addicted to harmful substances will often go to any lengths to get the substance they need and will suffer physically if they don't get that substance.

This is the exact reason I've always said people can quit smoking anytime they want to. They just have to want to, and most people don't really want to. Now sure quitting smoking or vaping may piss you off, make you uncomfortable, or even miserable but you will not be out mugging old ladies to get your tobacco or eliquid and you will not suffer severe physical withdrawls or die from not having it. We often hear others say the only way I could quit smoking was vaping. I say that's BS, if they really wanted to quit they would quit. The reality is they have given up smoking for vaping. Trading one for the other and the reason then are easily able to do so is because its so similar to smoking and they still get the nicotine by using the same action they are used to getting it from.

 

[K_Tech]

While I have no scientific basis to disagree with you, I can't help but think of all the vapers (myself included) who see a noticeable difference between the desire to vape and the beast-like craving for a cigarette. Is there any chance the nicotine in gum has been treated/freebased like that in cigarettes? I truly have no idea and don't want to start any rumors. Just wondering if anyone knew something about it.

I know nothing about it, and I only have my personal reactions and feelings to base my opinion on.

When I still smoked, I would CRAVE cigarettes. If I went without one for an hour, I would rarely be able to focus on anything besides getting that cigarette lit. Vaping, not so much. I can put down my vape, especially when I am busy doing something, and get back to it, almost as an afterthought, when I get the time.

 

[xxJollyRogerxx]

Awww Yea! Fr. Jack rocking the eVic!
I agree he makes some very valid points about the mindset of it.
But I suspect the OP is not a long time smoker either like many of us are.

 

[Barbchris]

Nicotine is addictive -- period. Only on the internet would you find anyone disputing this. I'll think back to my Master's level neuroscience classes to see if I can explain this. We all know opiates are addictive. They are because we have opiod receptors in our brains, as part do our own natural opiod-based system, endorphins and enkephalins. We cannot become addicted to any chemical for which we do not have receptors, since by definition, physiological addiction requires receptors "crying out" for the substance, which produces withdrawal symptoms.

Our muscular system is primary run by a cholinergic system. The neurotransmitter responsible for muscular contraction is acetylcholine. The receptors for ACH are called nicotinergic/muscitinergic receptors. (Spelling might be a bit off, it's been a while.) So, our brains and our bodies are full of little receptors crying out for both ACH & once exposed to nicotine -- nicotine. All physiological withdrawal symptoms are caused by empty receptors, demanding to be sated by the presence of the chemical.

However, we have a SET number of opiod receptors. We will have the same number from birth to death. The crucial difference with nicotine ("one of the most addictive substances know to man" moniker is due to this) is that the number of receptors is PLASTIC, not static. So, once a person has exposed themselves to nicotine, the number of receptors in their brains PERMANENTLY increases! When a person quits, these receptors are not all happy about it & withdrawal symptoms result. When the person remains unexposed to nicotine for a period of time, essentially the receptors "get used to it" and calm down.

But, the "demon nicotine" is in the details. The former smoker will ALWAYS have more receptors for nicotine than a never-smoker. That explains "Puff away from a pack a day." ONE exposure to nicotine is enough for the smoker to relapse.

That's just fact, neuroscience. No other chemical causes a permanent increase in receptors. .... & other psychoactive chemicals produce dependency in other ways, but only nicotine changes the brain in that specific way.

Be wary of articles with "propaganda" in the tile, be wary of anyone who is stating something so illogical as "nicotine is not addictive" since we ALL KNOW, only 5% of "quits" succeed & we all have personal experience with scrounging around, smoking buts... Most of us have tried & failed to quit, many times...

Where are the studies? Well, this meta-analysis by the NIH, the WHO & the CDC alone, quotes 855 papers. Anyone questioning "where is the research?" Certainly hasn't looked very hard

Nicotine Addiction: Past and Present - How Tobacco Smoke Causes Disease: The Biology and Behavioral Basis for Smoking-Attributable Disease - NCBI Bookshelf

 

[samturdo]

That's a good video and makes a very valid point. I don't think were gonna see people out committing crimes to get tobacco or e liquid even though they consider themselves addicted to nicotine. It makes sense that's its more of a dependence not an addiction. Others who are truly addicted to harmful substances will often go to any lengths to get the substance they need and will suffer physically if they don't get that substance.

This is the exact reason I've always said people can quit smoking anytime they want to. They just have to want to, and most people don't really want to. Now sure quitting smoking or vaping may piss you off, make you uncomfortable, or even miserable but you will not be out mugging old ladies to get your tobacco or eliquid and you will not suffer severe physical withdrawls or die from not having it. We often hear others say the only way I could quit smoking was vaping. I say that's BS, if they really wanted to quit they would quit. The reality is they have given up smoking for vaping. Trading one for the other and the reason then are easily able to do so is because its so similar to smoking and they still get the nicotine by using the same action they are used to getting it from.

ive seen smash and grabs to get cigarettes

 

[samturdo]

Nicotine is addictive -- period. Only on the internet would you find anyone disputing this. I'll think back to my Master's level neuroscience classes to see if I can explain this. We all know opiates are addictive. They are because we have opiod receptors in our brains, as part do our own natural opiod-based system, endorphins and enkephalins. We cannot become addicted to any chemical for which we do not have receptors, since by definition, physiological addiction requires receptors "crying out" for the substance, which produces withdrawal symptoms.

Our muscular system is primary run by a cholinergic system. The neurotransmitter responsible for muscular contraction is acetylcholine. The receptors for ACH are called nicotinergic/muscitinergic receptors. (Spelling might be a bit off, it's been a while.) So, our brains and our bodies are full of little receptors crying out for both ACH & once exposed to nicotine -- nicotine. All physiological withdrawal symptoms are caused by empty receptors, demanding to be sated by the presence of the chemical.

However, we have a SET number of opiod receptors. We will have the same number from birth to death. The crucial difference with nicotine ("one of the most addictive substances know to man" moniker is due to this) is that the number of receptors is PLASTIC, not static. So, once a person has exposed themselves to nicotine, the number of receptors in their brains PERMANENTLY increases! When a person quits, these receptors are not all happy about it & withdrawal symptoms result. When the person remains unexposed to nicotine for a period of time, essentially the receptors "get used to it" and calm down.

But, the "demon nicotine" is in the details. The former smoker will ALWAYS have more receptors for nicotine than a never-smoker. That explains "Puff away from a pack a day." ONE exposure to nicotine is enough for the smoker to relapse.

That's just fact, neuroscience. No other chemical causes a permanent increase in receptors. .... & other psychoactive chemicals produce dependency in other ways, but only nicotine changes the brain in that specific way.

Be wary of articles with "propaganda" in the tile, be wary of anyone who is stating something so illogical as "nicotine is not addictive" since we ALL KNOW, only 5% of "quits" succeed & we all have personal experience with scrounging around, smoking buts... Most of us have tried & failed to quit, many times...

Where are the studies? Well, this meta-analysis by the NIH, the WHO & the CDC alone, quotes 855 papers. Anyone questioning "where is the research?" Certainly hasn't looked very hard

Nicotine Addiction: Past and Present - How Tobacco Smoke Causes Disease: The Biology and Behavioral Basis for Smoking-Attributable Disease - NCBI Bookshelf

i totally agree.

and for some reason im more addicted to nicotine with vaping than with smoking so its not the tobacco, its the nicotine.

not trying to give it up at all though. i only switched to vaping because its cheaper and healthier

 

[AndriaD]

I guess they didn't bother to read in those links I posted. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it think.

Andria

 

[sub4me]

ive seen smash and grabs to get cigarettes

Most of those are due to the high cost, no the addiction to tobacco.