Why don't people want e-liquid labels changed?
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That is always bound to happen in this type of conversation. Don't take it to heart. I firmly believe we are all on basically the same side here. We are all just trying to share our opinions. Don't be done. Your opinion matters as much as the next persons. If you believe in what you say then stand strong with it. This world would be very boring if we all thought the same. Unless of course everybody thought as I did. Then the world would be perfect.
Just foolin. I think we all just want to protect our right to be adults and make choices for our own lives and it is a very scary time within the vape community so we do as humans do.....React!!
You seem to forget that BT, BP and the "Gobbermint" are all in bed with each other. One must simply look at the new European TPD to realize this.
Of course FDA would listen to what BT has to say about regulations that are going to be applied to THEIR own products. BT, BP and Govt's NEED people to keep smoking, after all.
But when it comes to e-cigarettes? C'mon... really?
Do you really expect FDA to carefully listen to anything a strong opponent of cigarettes has to say?
In Europe, BT was really smart - by giving the European Comission an "outline" of recommendations for regulations... to be applied not to tobacco cigarettes, but to the COMPETITION! E-cigs are going to face, under the TPD, harsher regulations than tobacco by itself. Do you believe e-cig manufactures were given the same chance of giving "outlines" to counter the irrational anti-e-cig measures proposed in the TPD ?
Unfortunately, as far as I can recall, your beloved FDA was already gathering scare-mongering press meetings against vaping, as far back as 2009. In that famous "nitrosamines study" * , FDA was advising that e-cigs should banned based on lies and propaganda. So excuse if I do not trust for a minute that an agency as currupt as FDA (just look at the revolving door between FDA and Govt) is capable of treating vaping in a fair, rational way with *just* some "simple regulations" in order to "keep us safe".
* That study was a comparative one, between e-liquid and the Nicotrol inhaler.
Yet, the data for the Nicotrol was never published, so that people could not *compare* anything. All they did was present the nitrosamines results for e-liquid (without even stating what the safe levels were) and proceeded to call a press meeting stating that "we found nitrosamines in e-liquid! And that is baaaaad!!"
Suppose that I first approve as safe product A (even with a *safe* level of nitrosamines). Later, I make a study about product B and, with no surprises, I find the *same* nitrosamine levels (it makes sense - it is the *same* liquid nicotine being used, after all).
But I cannot present the Nicotrol results - otherwise, smart people will ask me why have I approved Nicotrol in the past, and why am I now advising for the banning of e-liquid. Is the product *I* have approved myself that dangerous also?
If I *hide* crucial data from a "scientific" study in order to "sell" my own beliefs and agenda, then I am *lying* thru my teeth - and liars cannot be trusted to treat something "fairly", when that "something" is making the liar's bubbies lose profits. It's just as simple as that.
It's not my "beloved FDA" and I never said that anyone wasn't corrupt or misleading, but thank you for the information.
If the conspiracies are true, then it's over...
I'll just carry on vaping as usual after regulations, however...
Fast rewind:
In the month of October, the EU tried the medicalization route to create what would have been a de-facto ban of e-cigs in Europe. They failed miserably: our ELECTED officials voted against it.
The next January, comission bureaucrats that NO-ONE elected started meetings - behind closed doors, as if we, the people, had NO right to know what was going on - to include e-cigs in the new TOBACCO directive (nevermind that there IS zero e-liquid, and that Pharma NRT's are NOT considered "tobacco" just because there's nicotine in there). That new TPD seems to be tailored to only allow outdated, ineffective 1st generation devices - in the process, due to all the regulations, only BT will have the resources to manufacture e-cigs that meet the regulations. Coincidence? Conspiracies?
You are right, however... despite all the regulations, people WILL keep vaping. Regulations and even criminal laws did not erradicate drug use anywhere. And to make a custum build box mod you only need to go to the nearest hobbyist/electrical shop. All you need is there, without having to associate yourself with criminals.
PG/VG can be purchased at a chemist's shop. Flavours are not going anywhere. Nicotine base can be imported from abroad (Custums will not be able to check each and every small package that enters the EU's borders), or even sourced from tobacco*. THAT will still be readily avaible.
* Let's see. I buy a pouch of tobacco. That tobacco is mine, and I have already paid the excise taxes to my greedy Govt. Is ANYONE going to force me to use the tobacco that I bought and paid for, in the MOST harmful way - smoking it?
Would anyone prevent me from chewing it, for example? How would anyone then forbid me from batching those tobacco leaves in PG and use that tobacco extract as a mix of PG tobacco flavouring/nicotine base?
It's a contentious issue primarily because the government would like to treat everyone like they're children who don't know any better. A lot of folks are tired of that government attitude, in general, and see this as an opportunity to push back.
My apologies for the "beloved" part. I might have been carried away.
As for the rest: you never said that anyone wasn't corrupt or misleading, but that is not enough. A good example of FDA misleading people to help not-so-covert economic interests can be valuable for people who do not know the whole story. So that they can judge for themselves if FDA can, or can not, be trusted to create fair, un-biased e-cigs regulations.
While I agree that giving examples of times that the FDA mislead consumers is important, but I disagree that this should be the teeth of any argument against regulation. The industry as whole needs to step out of the shadows and start working with the FDA, if anything to be on the front lines of any proposed rule makings. Some companies have begun to do this, but the majority are shunning any FDA involvement. That's not how you work with regulators, ever. They will write law whether you cooperate or not, so it's in the industries best intrest to be open to regulation but lobby with the FDA on what regs get passed by congress.
So here's my 2cents...
I don't buy ejuice bc of what the label looks like - If it's good juice I vape it IDC if the label has rainbows & donkey's or plain.
Kids aren't going to want to vape bc a picture of a rabbit or unicorn is on the damn label. If your kid gets ahold of a bottle and drinks it That's BAD PARENTING on your part
Vaping is NOT A GATEWAY TO NICOTINE - This is the stupidest thing I've ever heard...If juices come in 0mg nic and a kid vapes it, the kid is getting no nicotine to begin with & probably wouldn't go up in nicotine bc the body wouldn't crave what it has never had.
It's easier for a kid to steal a lighter & a cig or 2 out of a pack of smokes from you & get it out of the house, I'm 100% sure your going to notice your mod & ejuice missing ASAP.
Flavors - I guess all these people who oppose the "Kid Appealing" flavors ex. ice cream, fruits, desserts, cereals, etc You shouldn't be eating them then bc that soda you drink & that pie you eat is making KIDS FAT
This is just Another thing for people to complain about bc 99% of every other "This will help you quit" thing hasn't/won't work.
VAPE ON
I don't buy ejuice bc of what the label looks like - If it's good juice I vape it IDC if the label has rainbows & donkey's or plain.
Kids aren't going to want to vape bc a picture of a rabbit or unicorn is on the damn label. If your kid gets ahold of a bottle and drinks it That's BAD PARENTING on your part
Vaping is NOT A GATEWAY TO NICOTINE - This is the stupidest thing I've ever heard...If juices come in 0mg nic and a kid vapes it, the kid is getting no nicotine to begin with & probably wouldn't go up in nicotine bc the body wouldn't crave what it has never had.
It's easier for a kid to steal a lighter & a cig or 2 out of a pack of smokes from you & get it out of the house, I'm 100% sure your going to notice your mod & ejuice missing ASAP.
Flavors - I guess all these people who oppose the "Kid Appealing" flavors ex. ice cream, fruits, desserts, cereals, etc You shouldn't be eating them then bc that soda you drink & that pie you eat is making KIDS FAT
This is just Another thing for people to complain about bc 99% of every other "This will help you quit" thing hasn't/won't work.
VAPE ON
i have read in this thread and others that there are no studies concerning
the inhalation of the flavorings in e-juice.
Safety and Health Information Bulletins | Occupational Exposure to Flavoring Substances: Health Effects and Hazard Control
apparently OSHA has been doing a little home work.
scroll down to table 2.
regards
mike
the inhalation of the flavorings in e-juice.
Safety and Health Information Bulletins | Occupational Exposure to Flavoring Substances: Health Effects and Hazard Control
apparently OSHA has been doing a little home work.
scroll down to table 2.
regards
mike
I have these tables, mostly from the NIOSH Poscket Guide (which is a very misleading title, it wont fit in a pocket). I want to see them test these chemicals after being heated. All of their tests are at 75F and off of natural vapor production caused by evaporation. While this is a start, it's a long ways away from being the ammo the industry needs to hold of tough regulations.
That is the essence of "RULE" vs "GOVERNANCE". That's not how the US government is supposed to work.
they are tested at 75F because that's just an averaged temperature of ambient air.
its whats allowed in the factory workers air with all the industrial processes going on
around him including processes where high heat is used on the substance in question.
in the food business that would be cooking i believe.
mike
You know, I am half tempted to start writing articles with the title "Electronic cigarettes have been found to be dangerous", and in the article, mention how safe they are and state how dangerous electronic cigarettes are to the tobacco companies profits. Use their own tactics against them. Make sure to include the famous taglines you hear on the other propaganda so it comes up on the search engine.
Example:
Electronic Cigarettes have been found to be dangerous.
Electronic cigarettes have been found to be dangerous is a saying that most people find on their reports. There have been studies that find formaldehyde in electronic cigarettes, antifreeze in electronic cigarettes, and how ejuice flavors are marketed towards children. These reports are broadcast over the internet to scare people and try to make them go back to regular cigarettes. Studies have shown that ecigarettes are dangerous, but not dangerous to your health, but dangerous to the tobacco companies profits and dangerous because they reduce tax revenue for the government.
The liquid contained in the juice that e cigarettes use has been reported to contain formaldehyde. That statement is based off of inaccurate research designed to scare people away from the healthier alternative. The report stated that under certain conditions, formaldehyde is produced. However, the study was done in a way that most anything put through their conditions will produce formaldehyde. Their studies subjected ejuice in heat in excess of 500 degrees...most food, when given a minute amount and burned 500 degrees will produce formaldehyde.
Electronic Cigarettes contain anti-freeze. This is absolutely true. However, it is another confusion tactic used by the anti-smoking campaign to keep people smoking regular cigarettes. The anti-freeze they are referring to is Propylene glycol, which is used as an antifreeze in boats, since regular antifreeze is toxic to the environment. The marine industry seeked a safe food substance that can be ingested and taken without any health concerns, and propylene glycol fit the bill.
Electronic cigarettes flavors are being marketed to children. Yet again, this is another scare tactic used to get people to go back to the highly taxed cigarettes. The truth is, electronic cigarettes use food flavorings in their ejuice. Flavors used in the baking industry like caramel, strawberry, whipped cream... their the flavors used in baking that many adults like. There are a wild variety of flavors, and ejuice makers are blending their juices to try to entice smokers to switch from tobacco cigarettes to a healthier alternative.
The truth is, Electronic cigarettes are a healthier alternative to smoking. The FDA research states that they do not know what is in an electronic cigarette. The four four main ingredients in an electronic cigarette is propylene glycol, Vegetable glycerine, nicotine, and flavorings. Electronic cigarettes need at least one of these ingredients, but they do not have to have all three. Since there are a lot of flavorings in there used in the baking industry, the FDA cannot research every flavor out there. Because they don't know, they can state "may" on many of their claims, and use that as a basis to impose a harm tax. Studies have shown that e cigarettes are safer, and is effective at getting people away from the highly taxed and highly dangerous tobacco cigarettes.
Example:
Electronic Cigarettes have been found to be dangerous.
Electronic cigarettes have been found to be dangerous is a saying that most people find on their reports. There have been studies that find formaldehyde in electronic cigarettes, antifreeze in electronic cigarettes, and how ejuice flavors are marketed towards children. These reports are broadcast over the internet to scare people and try to make them go back to regular cigarettes. Studies have shown that ecigarettes are dangerous, but not dangerous to your health, but dangerous to the tobacco companies profits and dangerous because they reduce tax revenue for the government.
The liquid contained in the juice that e cigarettes use has been reported to contain formaldehyde. That statement is based off of inaccurate research designed to scare people away from the healthier alternative. The report stated that under certain conditions, formaldehyde is produced. However, the study was done in a way that most anything put through their conditions will produce formaldehyde. Their studies subjected ejuice in heat in excess of 500 degrees...most food, when given a minute amount and burned 500 degrees will produce formaldehyde.
Electronic Cigarettes contain anti-freeze. This is absolutely true. However, it is another confusion tactic used by the anti-smoking campaign to keep people smoking regular cigarettes. The anti-freeze they are referring to is Propylene glycol, which is used as an antifreeze in boats, since regular antifreeze is toxic to the environment. The marine industry seeked a safe food substance that can be ingested and taken without any health concerns, and propylene glycol fit the bill.
Electronic cigarettes flavors are being marketed to children. Yet again, this is another scare tactic used to get people to go back to the highly taxed cigarettes. The truth is, electronic cigarettes use food flavorings in their ejuice. Flavors used in the baking industry like caramel, strawberry, whipped cream... their the flavors used in baking that many adults like. There are a wild variety of flavors, and ejuice makers are blending their juices to try to entice smokers to switch from tobacco cigarettes to a healthier alternative.
The truth is, Electronic cigarettes are a healthier alternative to smoking. The FDA research states that they do not know what is in an electronic cigarette. The four four main ingredients in an electronic cigarette is propylene glycol, Vegetable glycerine, nicotine, and flavorings. Electronic cigarettes need at least one of these ingredients, but they do not have to have all three. Since there are a lot of flavorings in there used in the baking industry, the FDA cannot research every flavor out there. Because they don't know, they can state "may" on many of their claims, and use that as a basis to impose a harm tax. Studies have shown that e cigarettes are safer, and is effective at getting people away from the highly taxed and highly dangerous tobacco cigarettes.
Maybe... just maybe... that's because the e-cig industry has realized that FDA was not the least interested in working WITH them, but rather AGAINST them from the beginning. No matter what the industry has to say. Have you considered that?
"They will write law whether you cooperate or not" is the all-mighty stance that almost every Govt agency all over the world has adopted toward e-cigs. That's why instead of "cooperating" with an agency that clearly wants to shoot down the industry, the industry has gone to the point of legally challenging said agencies - and winning in court.
The industry is not rebelling against ANY regulations that FDA wants to put forward. Useful regulations, made with consumers in mind, should be welcome. It's the lying, the propaganda, the attempt to de-facto ban an entire "problematic" industry that is the real issue here.
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