Why is WTA so dangerous?

[chabos]

I noticed this forum, and decided it would probably be the best place to ask about WTA extraction. Fortunately I decided to look at a few threads first, and I noticed one thread from someone asking about exactly that had been deleted for being dangerous. What I would like to know is why is it so dangerous that it's forbidden on this forum? Is it just the fact that you would be extracting an unkown amount of MAOI alkaloids, which could presumably result in an overdose if the concentration was too high? Or is there something else I'm missing here? And is it the WTA liquid itself that's dangerous, or just the extraction part? If it's just the extraction part, I suppose I can always just order WTA liquid from Aroma, but I'd like to be sure about that before putting something in my lungs that's so dangerous it's even banned on a sub forum where people regularly discuss handling high purity nicotine extract . If WTA liquid really is that dangerous, then as a follow up question will naturally extracted tobacco contain all of those wonderful alkaloids that are sadly absent in regular e liquid? I love vaping, but lately I've been getting an itch for mild doses of MAOIs that e liquid just can't scratch. :/

 

[Wow1420]

I believe it is the extraction process that is dangerous.

Since I'm just a WTA user (wholecig), not an expert, I'll direct you to DVAPs blogs for more reading on WTA E-Cigarette Forum - DVap - Blogs

NETs are different from WTA, by the way they are made, they will contain only miniscule amounts of WTA.

 

[LucentShadow]

Some NET methods can actually extract a significant portion of the alkaloids in tobacco, at a cost of extremely low concentration and purity. While it could be possible to concentrate such a result (not advisable), depending upon the solvent (PG and VG would obviously be more difficult than water,) all of the co-extracted material would also concentrate, making it unpleasant to vape, at best. Simple filtration is not able to remedy that.

Most extraction methods that can get a high level of purity deal with such things as combustible, extremely high-pressure, poisonous, and/or corrosive solvents, and having to completely remove them from the solution without leaving any byproducts, as well as handling the concentrated alkaloids. There are a myriad of potential problems that an amateur would not even know to think of in most of the processes, making them necessarily hazardous.

I have researched the subject quite a bit, and doubt that any further discussion could be done here without someone mucking it up by going into territory that is too dangerous to be condoned, eventually.

Since it's available to buy, there's no compelling reason to discuss such sensitive matters. If it ever becomes extremely difficult or impossible to get, perhaps that would change. Hopefully that does not happen, though.

 

[chabos]

Thanks for the answers, especially Lucent's, that was exactly what I was looking for. I will probably end up buying some from Aroma. The reasons I wanted to know about extraction are the high price of the WTA from Aroma (at least compared to MBV any way) and the fact that for some reason I have a mild fascination with clandestine chemistry. But anything too much more complex than an A/B pull just isn't worth it, especially if it, you know, kills you and what not.

 

[chabos]

Also, at any point in your research did you find a quantification of tobacco alkaloids? I was trying to find a paper like that because I want to know if the effects are all MAOI and nicotine related or if there are others I'm missing.

 

[LucentShadow]

Since the process is only currently done by a couple of small businesses, on a small scale, it's not an inexpensive product. Along with Aroma, there is WholeCig.com also selling it. I'll probably eventually try some from both, but I suspect I'll order from WholeCig first. I've been following their thread for a while now.

I can't remember any particular links to point you toward on tobacco alkaloids. There are a couple of old, very long, closed threads which started WTA that I can point you to, though:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/nicotine/44958-so-we-getting-we-not-nicotine.html

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...ne-maois-towards-more-effective-e-liquid.html

There were a fair number of papers pointed out in those threads. If you have not seen those threads, you'd likely find them quite interesting. While the topic shifts somewhat in each of those, they both discuss alkaloids as the 'something missing', Dvap does some extractions, sends them to a few members for testing (with good results,) and a lot of discussion was had on making a kitchen-safe extraction, mostly in the second thread. A final method was posted in another thread, and that thread was subsequently deleted for some reason, apparently at the poster's request.

There are a couple of versions of pretty safe A/B extractions in there. Post 1350 seems to have what I consider a decent one, as it takes some care to try not to leave nasty salts behind when neutralizing the pH at the end. I'm certainly no chemist, and I'm not at all fond of this type of process. It's quite problematic, though it would seem to work. Purity would not seem to be great, but not bad, either. If you're familiar with such processes, you could probably do it without much problem.

As it is, WTA seems likely to be what would make all NRTs (including e-cigs) a more viable quitting aid, IMO. Nicotine replacement does nothing for me. Some power through that with high doses, which does seem to help many, though I can't tolerate that. It would seem that WTA would satisfy at much lower doses. Unfortunately, many who don't know much about it seem to think that it's a significantly higher risk product than nicotine-only liquid, which i don't agree with.

 

[chabos]

Awesome, thanks for the links. I'll read through them once I have time.

The reason I ask is that I would imagine that there are some known clandestine methods for extracting beta carbolines from syrian rue, B. caapi, or passion flower that result in a reasonably high purity and are safe for vaping, given the popularity of their use for certain activities that I won't name here. I have a half baked plan to figure out how much of these beta carboline extracts would be similar to the amount of beta carbolines in an analogue, then prepare an e-liquid based on what I find.

I think I'll ask Bluelight for help on this one, given the large amount of chemistry knowledge and MAOI experience on that forum. If you'd like I can keep you posted on what I find, and how it works if I do try it, since I'm probably just crazy/stupid enough to test it on myself .

I agree that WTA is the future of many NRTs. I actually had no problem quitting analogues my self, I only smoked 1 or 2 a day any way. I initially quit without any kind of NRT at all. I'm one of the very small percentage of vapers that didn't start vaping to quit analogues, I just read a paper about acute nicotine doses (they used 21 mg patches) showing effectiveness as a depression treatment, especially when used with a regular anti depressant. But patches are expensive, and so would smoking around 21 cigs a day, so I ended up getting into vaping 36 mg e-liquid instead. But I quickly realized that no matter how much nicotine you have, it still won't compare to a cig when you're having a crap day.

I know a lot of people swear by snus, and as much as I love snus the rapid delivery of that much nicotine seems to give me anxiety if I'm already feeling bad (even though it's not as bad now that I'm used to vaping large quantities of nicotine). Between that and the lack of actually inhaling smoke/vapor (which I've always found very relaxing), to me snus is a more effective as a study aid or energy booster than as an anti depressant. I'm sure there are others on here who feel the same.

I agree that the paranoia about WTA being more dangerous than regular liquid is somewhat ridiculous. True, given that there are more alkaloids one or more of those alkaloids could prove to be dangerous, but with how many "Common household item X could give you cancer" studies that come out now days, it seems like just about anything could prove to be dangerous. And while you can overdose on MAOIs, I've never heard of that happening from regular tobacco, and unless the extract is ridiculously strong I doubt it would happen with that either. So I'll probably order some WTA from Aroma as soon as I'm less broke as hell . If you do end up ordering some from WholeCig let me know how you like it.

 

[~Sue~Feb2012]

Hi chabos!
You caught my attention! Especially some key words and parts of sentences such as "WTAs being that dangerous, ...thread deleted for being dangerous....it's forbidden on this forum... the high price of Aroma compared to MBV...mild fascination with clandestine chemistry...
and so on.

What's MBV if I may ask? Some other vendor has WTAs?

I tried several flavored WTA eliquids from Aroma over the past 1 1/2 years. It turns out there's too much PG in them for me but many people love pg. I tried their DIY unflavored WTAs, but again, at the time it was not VG based (my bottle said 60/40) (I had to dilute it a lot to lower the PG content) and it was only available once during the entire period of time I kept checking for it... so I gave up on them. In fact I found that I can't tolerate much PG for reasons I won't go into and not necessary to speak of here anyway.

Wholecig WTA eliquid, on the other hand, is available all the time, not just once in a while and for less $$. 100% VG , unflavored 25mg WTA eliquid in a 10 ml bottle is less than $12. They have a 30 ml bottle as well which is less than $10 per ml. They have a 36mg base as well for DIY purposes. Both are great and do satisfy the itch. I've cut down from 2 PAD to just a few cigs a day

I'm happy.

.....but now I have to go read more about all that forbidden and deleted stuff

 

[LucentShadow]

Hey, chabos. There was some discussion of other sources of beta carbolines in those threads as well, though it didn't seem to be much, and I didn't focus on any of it. That probably comes close to the 'not advisable' realm here, and I'm only interested in WTA. I'll probably have a look over there for such discussion, though, as the principles apply very much to my interest.

I am still looking into methods to extract tobacco alkaloids, but only for securing self-sufficiency in the face of uncertain times for e-cigs. Investigating centrifugation is my current focus, and I'm interested in supercritical CO2, though I doubt that I'd ever try using it on anything other than a very small scale experiment. I'm into computer programming, electronics, and cnc machining, so I tend to like things that those skills lend themselves well to.

I have not vaped in about a month, which is disappointing, but was able to cut down considerably on cigarettes for quite some time with vaping. Vaping was mostly just a passifier, though, as I would always want and prefer the cigarettes. I am preparing myself for attempting to quit cigs by using WTA, and perhaps snus, now that I understand much more about my addiction.

I'm a bit disgusted in ALL of the 'conventional wisdom' on quitting smoking. For me, it would all seem to be misinformation. It took a few brave, inquisitive members in a small corner of this forum to hit upon a good solution for me, and probably even for those who don't seem to have long-term psychological degradation without tobacco. I've no interest in becoming a slave to big pharma for medications that are likely overkill for me.

Anyway, I'm already pretty sure that WTA will work for me, and I'll report back on WholeCig's when I try it.

 

[chabos]

I've no interest in becoming a slave to big pharma for medications that are likely overkill for me.

Just started on Wellbutrin (pretty much high dose Zyban) for depression. .......n does that stuff have some side effects. At least combined with my ADD meds any way. Currently my jaw is sore as hell, I have a bunch of lie bumps on my tongue, and the insides of my cheeks are all chewed up from the jaw clenching side effect of this combo. There's a decent chance that many of the side effects will go away after 6 weeks, but still... You are wise to avoid this one unless it's absolutely necessary.

 

[215Z]

Wellbutrin SR was no fun for me either

 

[regal55]

Why not just use Nicotiana rustica use macerated net? The Tobacco used in Malbaro's has been so domesticated to be nicotine dominant that I seriously doubt these WTA's used in such low concentrations carry a pharmacologically significant amount of non-nicotine alkaloids than a good macerated net of a strong tobacco. I'm sure that's not a popular opinion as folks have a financial stake with WTA's but the process is just a simple acid-base extraction and not patentable.

Then again I'm no neurochemist and who knows what mind games Phillip Morris is playing with us (I interviewed to be a formulation chemist there some 20 years ago and they weren't just rolling cigarettes.)

The dangers I'm sure if you can't do an acid base alkaloid extraction by heart you don't need to be fooling with it, look at the kids catching their kitchens on fir extracting Mexican roots bark.

 

[regal55]

As a chemist who has performed the extraction on other alkaloid plants heres's whats dangerous:

1. highly flammable solvents
2. A sepratory funnel is illegal in most states, some a felony.
3. Worlong with sodium hydroxide is dangerous, especially if you don't neautralize all of it and vape it.
4. I'm sure there's more.

That said the proper equipment and lab could probably buy you enough WTA to last 5 years.




However go to your nearest campus and kids are doing the procedure to extract psychedelic plants, google changa. They are using dangerous techniques IMHO.

 

[DSmooch]

Just started on Wellbutrin (pretty much high dose Zyban) for depression. .......n does that stuff have some side effects. At least combined with my ADD meds any way. Currently my jaw is sore as hell, I have a bunch of lie bumps on my tongue, and the insides of my cheeks are all chewed up from the jaw clenching side effect of this combo. There's a decent chance that many of the side effects will go away after 6 weeks, but still... You are wise to avoid this one unless it's absolutely necessary.

I wanted to quit smoking 7 years ago and my generalist told me "I got something that'll help you" zyban... the same month, had a trombosis and almost lost an eye. My optic nerve was one of a 65 and bleeding they told me at the clinic, only I was just past 35. It took 5 years for that eye to get back to 'normal'. All the analysis, no explanation. I just know it's our friend zyban.
I quit 3 years ago. there were no RDAs RBAs, these took time to emerge, the transition to egos was painful coming from 2.5packs. Today you can really hit yourself, and now nets?! who needs wtas..
Imo, a daily "trip to colorado" is a better healthier approach.

Sent from my SGP321 using Tapatalk

 

[vapero]

Since the process is only currently done by a couple of small businesses, on a small scale, it's not an inexpensive product. Along with Aroma, there is WholeCig.com also selling it. I'll probably eventually try some from both, but I suspect I'll order from WholeCig first. I've been following their thread for a while now.

I can't remember any particular links to point you toward on tobacco alkaloids. There are a couple of old, very long, closed threads which started WTA that I can point you to, though:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/nicotine/44958-so-we-getting-we-not-nicotine.html

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...ne-maois-towards-more-effective-e-liquid.html

There were a fair number of papers pointed out in those threads. If you have not seen those threads, you'd likely find them quite interesting. While the topic shifts somewhat in each of those, they both discuss alkaloids as the 'something missing', Dvap does some extractions, sends them to a few members for testing (with good results,) and a lot of discussion was had on making a kitchen-safe extraction, mostly in the second thread. A final method was posted in another thread, and that thread was subsequently deleted for some reason, apparently at the poster's request.

There are a couple of versions of pretty safe A/B extractions in there. Post 1350 seems to have what I consider a decent one, as it takes some care to try not to leave nasty salts behind when neutralizing the pH at the end. I'm certainly no chemist, and I'm not at all fond of this type of process. It's quite problematic, though it would seem to work. Purity would not seem to be great, but not bad, either. If you're familiar with such processes, you could probably do it without much problem.

As it is, WTA seems likely to be what would make all NRTs (including e-cigs) a more viable quitting aid, IMO. Nicotine replacement does nothing for me. Some power through that with high doses, which does seem to help many, though I can't tolerate that. It would seem that WTA would satisfy at much lower doses. Unfortunately, many who don't know much about it seem to think that it's a significantly higher risk product than nicotine-only liquid, which i don't agree with.

thanks for that lucent post 1350 was just what I was looking for for a long time!!

I've been using wholecig diy wta for the past couple of weeks as a self medication for ADHD and its working a bit, I need to up the dose from 10% to 15% but I don't really like the peppery tobacco taste that it has, does this method taste similar or will the less than pure procedure would give it a much more pronounce taste?

 

[LucentShadow]

thanks for that lucent post 1350 was just what I was looking for for a long time!!

I've been using wholecig diy wta for the past couple of weeks as a self medication for ADHD and its working a bit, I need to up the dose from 10% to 15% but I don't really like the peppery tobacco taste that it has, does this method taste similar or will the less than pure procedure would give it a much more pronounce taste?

Unfortunately, my experience with WTA has been a bit depressing. I have yet to get a product that I would consider 'good to vape', and that includes my own efforts, and an unsatisfactory order with WholeCig. I've not pursued it any farther, at this point.

Regarding post 1350: As mentioned, I found the process to be problematic. I only attempted that method twice. The first time, I ran into horrible emulsions in the partitioning steps, and called it a loss. The second time, I filtered the initial extract much better, with lab filter paper, and the emulsions were more tolerable. However, the neutralization step at the end was much slower than I anticipated, and I also botched it by adding too much calcium carbonate, trapping the small amount of final extract in a calcium lump.

While I'm sure that it can work for some, I'm not sure if it would for me. I've learned that any remaining salts or acids will generally cause me irritation. That method is the only method in that thread that seems to care about not leaving the product acidic, or full neutralization salts. I just find it to be infuriating to carry out. Last I heard, the author of that post still uses their own extract.

So, I can't comment much on the taste. The little bit that I salvaged from that method, and cautiously tried, was a bit irritating to my airways, but decent tasting. I'd guess that it'd be best to err toward leaving it a bit acidic, rather than add too much calcium carbonate. You can make decent pH paper with a bit of red cabbage and white coffee filters, to aid with checking that.

 

[ronchinoy]

Op you read my mind.
Im uneducated so if you disagree with me put it down to that.

I cant order the famous WTA as they dont sell it in my country. And asking people to carry it in. Is like asking somebody to bring in dope.

Im one of those few who suffered and is suffering for the past few months. With the something missing. And direct effect on my work productivity. I solder SMD components onto PCBs so its pretty obvious how my numbers have been hit. Sob story over.

My early attempts to get by where done by vaping Tobacco in an iolite. Im 100% you get all the alkaloids using this method. For me its like a light switch I know when its on and when it off.

Next about WTA being dangerous. I dont buy this. Cant be any more dangerous than handling nicotine.

Then I found dvap and his old posts on other forums. And got a clue.

I read about snuff. But I have seen people with cancer from the mouth from using it. And no I cant import it from the swiss. Nobody imports it in our country. I import and export stuff so know what a pain it is.

Then it struck me. The locals. Are chewing on tobacco leaf all the time. I tried some. You get cheap to fancy. Fancy being fully organic.
The locals also smoke something called a Bedi. The leafs of this have the highest nic. over 9%. They are nothing buy cheap mini cigars. Called Bedi or Charoot.

So I started to study tobacco the kinds and types. Where they are grown how they are cured etc.
Got samples from different locations.

Used google got some guidelines on methods of alkaloid extraction. As I always suspected and knew from my speed steeping nothing beats a microwave. I have industrial strength ultrasonic clears. Not the underpowered crappy amazon stuff. And even they dont work as well as the microwave. Anyway my steeping testing stories for another day.

So I first soak the leafs in PG. Very low % say 15% of total liquid. let it steep for a day.
Then I add some IPA or Vodka and mash. Then the next day add some water. Continue to mash. Continue to heat in the microwave under pressure but not let the temp cross 70c. And keep mashing. Put it thru a few pan with water in it boils. And see the alcohol and water added drop.

At the last step I add some VG and let it steep. Again repeating the heat pressure and mash process. Towards the end it just steeps for 4-5 weeks.

Now here is the part that is going to upset some people.
At every step of the way. I dip my little finger into the mash and put a tiny drop on my tongue.
At every stage the light switch goes boing on. What ever I need is still there.

After 4 weeks I again Mash. And start filtering.
From 100 Grams Leafs I got about 250 ML dark nice smelling juice.
Drop test says what ever I want is still there.

I have no idea why they say NET extraction from tobacco will not get you WTA. Like I said Im uneducated in chemistry.
All I know is that my NET is keeping me happy. And off the iolite. The TFA tobacco flavors could not be smoked. But add some of my NET and im in Vape Heaven. First time was almost a vape orgasm. The brain and taste buds both got satisfied.

While Im ok smoking this I would never consider selling it or sharing it with anybody.
Its my body and I understand the risks.
The other downside is my filtration process has to improve.
Cause it keeps gunking up my coils. This seems to be common with most guys doing NETs.

If I have missed out any steps from my process its more because my short term memory is in the toilet these days.
Ruined all my coils and haven't had a good vape since morning. Been busy working.
Guys who are doing their NETs at home. Must know that they are getting more than flavor from it.
I can believe all of them are wiping out every bit of Alkaloid and nicotine. Esp those guys doing 100 Grams and over. I read all the posts explaining how the nicotine vanishes. But here is the funny thing. After a drop test on my tongue. There is no craving for nic. So there has to be some there.

A special friend did bring me some Tobacco Absolute down. It was from a vendor in the US. Very clean. Two types A rustica and bulgarian. I tried both. Did not set off the light switch. Hardly effected flavor then again only used 1%.

Some things I see people doing which failed for me.
a. Soaking anything in VG it absorbs nothing. Neither Nic or alkaloids or flavor. Early test involved VG flavors and soaks. Failures all of them.
b. Not using heat and Microwave. Process becomes inefficient and slow.
c. Expecting it to work in a day or an hour. Though the light s/w does go off. From the second you have enough liquid mixed with the leaf.
My apologies if Ive stepped on anybodys toes. Or said anything wrong.

In keeping with don't discuss WTA Ive left out all the acid / base. And tried to stick to discussing a NET. And process I see being discussed by the guys making NET.

All you guys making NETs. I bet your one happy bunch.

Ps: In an effort to help those also having a tough time finding the right WTA. Or dose.
Just get whole leaf cured tobacco. Each Type or tobacco based on where its grown, how its cured will hit your throat different. I find the fire cured ones to have the pepper taste problem. The darker the leak and air dried have less pepper and more sweet.
The solution is out there. Dont get bogged down in the fancy prancy processes.
When you get your leafs (Buy Organic). Wash them once.
Then Just soak them in hot water. And mash a few times. Put a drop of this mash liquid on your tongue. Bingo. your sorted. Taking it from working on the tongue to working in a vape is not hard.
If you use a RBA then even the gunk on the coils is not an issue. Gunk on coils only becomes an issue on a dual coil protank. Which is a ..... to rebuild every day.

 

[Nuggit]

Ya man, stay away from that. Stick with the spirit molecule.

 

[brickfollett]

Sorry guys, what the heck is WTA?

 

[Jason Voorhees]

Sorry guys, what the heck is WTA?

Whole Tobacco Alkaloids