Educate me please on : WTA extraction process +++

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mwa102464

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I would like to know some more about this WTA juice, the process of extraction, how much more it really cost to make this juice if it does, exactly what Alkaloids are used in the process of making it and just an overall education on this topic

I was sent some to review and after my review I had some legitimate questions specifically about the extraction process and cost and the vendor couldn't or wouldn't be specific enough with me. Either do to lack of knowledge or just not wanting to let on to certain questions I had. I hope to educate myself here in this thread and to get some first hand knowledge from chemist, scientist and knowledgeable people who really know about WTA's, The extraction process, what Alkaloids you would or wouldn't want in this juice, and just to learn as much about it as I possibly can.


Thanks,

MWA:2cool:
 

MagnusEunson

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EDIT: Post voluntarily removed. "Don't try this at home"...

EDIT TWO: DVap has stepped in and that's best. My post was meant to give some perspective as to why processes vary, why costs vary, and provide some independently verifiable information that some of the alkaloids are already extracted at a much higher price (whether it be difficultly or scale) than nicotine.
 
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MagnusEunson

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DVap

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Hi MWA.. Thought I'd write this up for your information on WTA. I don't like to get into arguments and I avoid them, so hopefully you'll find this all helpful and we'll be on good terms.

Perhaps I don't answer all the questions you might have to the level of detail you'd like, but it's an honest effort. There are some aspects of WTA I'll talk freely about and others I prefer to hold a bit more tightly. If I don't answer something, then it's likely I've chosen not to.

What WTA isn't: WTA isn't a concoction of alkaloids added to nicotine in the lab. While this might have some effectiveness if the "right" set of alkaloids was stumbled upon, this smacks far too much of designing a drug for my comfort. It would also be pretty cheap to do since the bulk of WTA (perhaps 95% is nicotine), and the pricing point would by rights be pretty low. It would be a simple exercise of, "add this, add that, done!" I'm not coming near such a "designer alkaloid mix" with a 10 foot pole... even something so simple as say a mix of 97% nicotine and 3% anatabine.

So what is WTA? Similar to snus (where you put whole processed tobacco under your lip), you get the alkaloids that are naturally present in tobacco, but in the form of an e-liquid instead. The trick with WTA is to get the alkaloids out of the tobacco and get them isolated on their own. One might ask, "If you're just getting the alkaloids, isn't this a lot simpler than the work it takes to get nicotine purified on it's own?". The answer here is, "No, it's not". Nicotine is purified from tobacco on a huge and worldwide commercial scale. There is no such huge commercial scale for WTA.

Straight to your question on production cost and pricing. Obviously, this is dependent on 1) the labor time it takes, 2) the volume of alkaloids that can be isolated in that time, and 3) the cost of materials. An automated, large scale commercial process would minimize these factors, but for me to do it, it takes (on average) a good solid 6 hours of manual work. It's only practical to process perhaps 150 grams of tobacco for a yield of only 1.5 grams of alkaloids. Finally, there are the cost of materials and tobacco itself.

That 1.5 grams of alkaloids can be turned into only 75 mL of 20 mg/mL WTA eliquid.

If I were building a business plan (and I'm not), I'd be thinking like this:

So here is a finished material, 75 mL of 20 mg/mL WTA eliquid. If it's priced at $1/mL, I've hardly covered materials and my 6 hours of time are basically free. At $2/mL, I'm working for $12/hour. I do a lot better than that on my day job. It's hardly worth my effort... it's like working for the man overtime and not getting paid overtime. So we come to $3/mL. I've given up an entire evening and poured my expertise (25 years) into the stuff, and I come away maybe $150 to the positive. At least my wife won't kill me at that price.

The banker isn't going to be calling me "Sir" with any sincerity when I make that deposit!

I really hope this helps for perspective on where Jerry is coming from at the present. Expensive? Comparatively, yes. But on the current tiny scale that Jerry can offer, I don't believe anybody is being taken advantage of. If he succeeds (and I hope he does) in getting a viable scale-up going, the batch size goes up, and the per mL cost comes down. Right now, the whole thing is just terribly labor intensive with a vanishingly small yield to show for it.
 
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mwa102464

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@= MagnusEunson = Thank you for your post very much, very helpful and lots of good reading ahead for me again thank you very much Magnus.


@=DVap, = Thank you for your post as well, and I most likely will have some more questions, I hope you will check back and give your input if you feel comfortable doing so.

Just to clarify I wasn't looking for an argument in the other thread but only to be educated more on why the price is what it is and also to be educated more on the extraction process of these other Alkaloids it takes to get this WTA nicotine liquid so I hope that is very clear and now clarified and we no longer need to go there.
DVap you did exactly that and I thank you !

I was only looking for the information you & Magnus where both kind enough to post that others wouldn't, didn't, or have the knowledge to do so or didn't understand what I was looking for. I obviously have lots more to read, I have read through the thread "are we getting it or are we not" a few times here and there, though obviously not close enough to understand enough about these other Alkaloids that make up this "WTA". Again I thank you both and anyone else that may join in this discussion about these Alkaloids and the making of WTA Liquid.

So far when it comes to price on a WTA liquid it seems to me that if produced on a much larger scale of production it would drop the price a great deal ( correct ) ? So if one of the big Nicotine extraction labs where to make a normal big production batch it would seem by DVap's numbers go it would bring the price way down ( correct ) ? One of my thoughts behind all of this is if Big Tobacco ever got involved here in all of this that they very well likely may put out a product similar to this WTA so people could have a very similar effect as smoking with there vaping.

I'm still not understanding something about the extraction process however and maybe Magnus or DVap can help me here,,, and that's getting these Alkaloids out of the tobacco and into the Nicotine juice ( keep in mind I'm not a chemist please and dont have much knowledge on the actual workings of the extraction process OK ) If the lab is extracting say a 99.99 or 99.98 Nicotine from the tobacco plant and this is easily done in the lab since it is so widely produced. what makes it so hard to also extract some of these other Alkaloids in this process ? or even if they had to use a completely separate extraction process to extract these Alkaloids which I'm starting to think is the way this would have to be gone about ( I'm not sure the exact way this is done ) would it be a double or triple process or can it be done in the Nicotine extraction process as one extraction or is it a double, triple, or even more processes to get these other Alkaloids out?
They are in snus correct so it is being extracted for this product so it just seems that it really isn't so hard to do for the lab and seems like it could be done with Nic on a much larger scale and I'm surprised this isn't already being done more than it is now to provide people more options

DVap from your calculations of time and procedure of getting say 10% of these WTA's out of the tobacco plant wouldn't this process be sped up drastically on a larger scale in a big lab or does it take anybody and any lab the same time it takes you to get the little bit you show in your example or can this also be sped up in large scale production ?

OK Going to read up some more now to learn more on Alkaloids and this WTA thank both of you again for your input, it's helped a great deal so far.
 
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DVap

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So far when it comes to price on a WTA liquid it seems to me that if produced on a much larger scale of production it would drop the price a great deal ( correct ) ? So if one of the big Nicotine extraction labs where to make a normal big production batch it would seem by DVap's numbers go it would bring the price way down ( correct ) ? One of my thoughts behind all of this is if Big Tobacco ever got involved here in all of this that they very well likely may put out a product similar to this WTA so people could have a very similar effect as smoking with there vaping.

A fair assumption.

I'm still not understanding something about the extraction process however and maybe Magnus or DVap can help me here,,, and that's getting these Alkaloids out of the tobacco and into the Nicotine juice ( keep in mind I'm not a chemist please and dont have much knowledge on the actual workings of the extraction process OK ) If the lab is extracting say a 99.99 or 99.98 Nicotine from the tobacco plant and this is easily done in the lab since it is so widely produced. what makes it so hard to also extract some of these other Alkaloids in this process ? or even if they had to use a completely separate extraction process to extract these Alkaloids which I'm starting to think is the way this would have to be gone about ( I'm not sure the exact way this is done ) would it be a double or triple process or can it be done in the Nicotine extraction process as one extraction or is it a double, triple, or even more processes to get these other Alkaloids out?

It might sound surprising, but when nicotine is produced on large scale, the other alkaloids are more than likely extracted. They're just getting thrown away during the purification of nicotine. The mentality that these other alkaloids are good for something just isn't there. For the great majority, the mentality is "It's all about the nicotine".

They are in snus correct so it is being extracted for this product so it just seems that it really isn't so hard to do for the lab and seems like it could be done with Nic on a much larger scale and I'm surprised this isn't already being done more than it is now to provide people more options

Alkaloids are in snus because they are in the tobacco used in the production of snus. Snus is, at it's basis, carefully cured and pasteurized tobacco.

DVap from your calculations of time and procedure of getting say 10% of these WTA's out of the tobacco plant wouldn't this process be sped up drastically on a larger scale in a big lab or does it take anybody and any lab the same time it takes you to get the little bit you show in your example or can this also be sped up in large scale production ?

I'm not sure if the process on a large industrial scale would be faster, but it would enjoy an economy of scale.

Anyway, gotta spend some time today away from here. :vapor:
 

hittman

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    I'd like to thank Dvap for those explanations. You do a very nice job of explaining things so us regular folks can understand.

    I know Dvap already touched on this but I'd like to touch on the snus subject. Snus is simply pasteurized tobacco, salt , and sometimes flavors. Like Dvap said, the alkaloids are naturally in tobacco so people like me that use snus get them. At this point I am honestly not sure if I vape for the nicotine or just for the hand to mouth habit. Snus keeps me level like vaping alone never could. I know a lot of people that aren't familiar with swedish snus think that it's the same as dip. It's no where near the same as far as tsna levels. Snus is regulated in Sweden by what would be their version of our FDA and it has to meet certain criteria to be able to be sold. Snus can be bought loose cut or can be bought as portions which are small pouches with the tobacco inside. I personally only use portions since I can't get the picture out of my head of some guy with chew stuck in his teeth. Anyway, I read that snus is 98% safer than smoking and the only reason they put the warning labels on the cans is because our government makes them if they want to sell it here.

    Sorry about that. Let's get back to the WTA discussion.
     

    mwa102464

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    DVap says = It might sound surprising, but when nicotine is produced on large scale, the other alkaloids are more than likely extracted. They're just getting thrown away during the purification of nicotine. The mentality that these other alkaloids are good for something just isn't there. For the great majority, the mentality is "It's all about the nicotine".


    I'm really at a lost now DVap, so it is like I thought and these WTA's are extracted during the extraction process and your telling me they just throw them out now. If this where the case it would sound to me that they would be extremely cheap to be had and easily be able to be put back into the Nic juice once extracted or it could be set up to extract them with the Nicotine. Thus making the WTA Nic juice not that expensive ! What am I missing here DVap ? I know it must me something after your explanation of how much you get from 175g of tobacco and how much that ends up making of a 20mg Nic juice I'm still not understanding how this can be so expensive to ask the lab to keep them in or put them back in during the extraction process, help me understand this part a bit more if you would please
     

    hittman

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    Dvap would know for sure but my guess is that along with those other alkaloids is also a bunch of other stuff that would probably take another process to clean up so it can be used if that is even possible. Like I said, I don't know that, it's just a guess.
     

    MagnusEunson

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    It's a right guess.... extraction to pure nicotine has stages. During one of those stages it's likely other alkaloids are there for the taking. However, now you have to isolate the WTAs & the nicotine from everything else. It's still an ~extraction~.. all DVap was saying is that the WTAs probably aren't staying behind in the tobacco plant, it's probably out in the goop at some point w/ all the other stuff that will get filters and/or unmarked chemically and left behind. But so is cadmium and other stuff at various stages too. They don't bother to isolate anything else in the mixture because, as DVap said, they're just looking for the nicotine. The process to isolate the WTAs at that point still requires work. -Magnus
     

    MagnusEunson

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    No, alkaloids are a basic class of organic compound and so WTA is likely a step along the process of extracting nicotine. First, get the alkaloids, then separate out the nicotine (it's also an alkaloid).

    I don't understand how that changes the process or the answer. All the alkaloids are extracted w/ a benzene-chloroform solution (or another).. you still have to separate it out from solution. Remove the by-products of that process, no? Acid solution, etc. The references from DVap's blog and thread indicate that. Or are you saying that WTA is still a by-product of ~that~ step of the process? Because the way I read it, a lot of undesirables still come along with that. Please clarify, -Magnus
     

    DVap

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    I don't understand how that changes the process or the answer. All the alkaloids are extracted w/ a benzene-chloroform solution (or another).. you still have to separate it out from solution. Remove the by-products of that process, no? Acid solution, etc. The references from DVap's blog and thread indicate that. Or are you saying that WTA is still a by-product of ~that~ step of the process? Because the way I read it, a lot of undesirables still come along with that. Please clarify, -Magnus

    Yes, or another. I wouldn't want and won't have anything to do with benzene. It's nasty stuff. In the past it was used fairly frequently in lab processes, but it's been replaced with less carcinogenic materials wherever possible.

    I think Kin is basically correct. A "crude" alkaloid extract containing alkaloids and a lot of other junk would be the first step in going after nicotine.

    The question "why would they just throw this stuff away?", and it's answer is simple and bedeviling, they're not interested in this stuff, at least not yet.

    Anyway, I just got back from a "fun" Sunday evening and Monday morning at work.. and I've got to step back for a bit. Getting worn out hanging here too much!
     

    Bagazo

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    This is a question that I have been going over. I have purchased a pH meter. I'm aware of the safety measures that need to be taken. I have tried doing a couple of extractions but I'm just not getting what I thought I would.

    I understand the WTA is all there at some point idea. For example, you do a whole tobacco extract. Brown stinky liquid that you have wrung out of the tobacco. Basically a tobacco tea. This would have the WTA in it, right?

    So now you go on to the purification part of the extraction. You alter the pH of the solution so that the alkaloids form salts with acid. It could be vinegar or citric acid or something else. Does this have to be done at different pH levels for each alkaloid or could you just do a clean sweep by droping the pH to a very low level? What would this be?

    I have the same question for the alkaline part of the process. Is there a pH where you will get everything?

    The reason I ask is because I remember Dvap talking about wanting some alkaloids but there was one that he didn't want to extract so I figure that he must have gone step by step so he could isolate this one (don't remember what it was at the moment) and not include it in the final mix.

    Looking at the cancer rates of snus users in Europe I would think that that isn't needed. So if I could just swing the pH to one end to get everything out of the tobacco and then swing it so far in the other direction to purify then my mind would be at ease.
     
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