FDA Why Isn't Vaping the FDA Center for Tobacco Product's Biggest Ally?

[Kent C]

I remember that movie. It was fun and creepy. Possibly Edgar G. Robinson's last movie or at least one of the last. He was making movies in the early 1930's.

The last-ever scene Robinson filmed was a euthanasia sequence in the science fiction cult film Soylent Green (1973); it is sometimes claimed that he told friend and co-star Charlton Heston that he, Robinson, had in fact only weeks to live at best. As it turned out, Robinson died only twelve days later.

wiki...

 

[wv2win]

No, I don't think anyone is doing that. I think people are still hung up on previous statements, like "There will be NO new vapers" and "The the vaping industry will become unsustainable". Will the proposed deeming regs slow the adoption of vaping? Yeah, probably. Will it stop it? Will it make the (world-wide) industry unsustainable? No way!


The best alternative would be for the FDA to simply leave us alone. But since it seems they're not willing to do that, one of the things I'm gonna tell them is that no matter what they do, they won't stop me from vaping, and they won't stop me from talking about and trying to demonstrate the benefits of switching to any smoker I encounter who might be even a little bit curious. If vaping continues to grow at it's current rate for the 2-3 years that it will take for regs to become effective, there won't just be 2-3 million of us, there will be 10-20 million of us by then. Now, Mr. Zeller, do you really want 10-20 million people royally ...... at you because you're taking away something that they perceive to be life-saving? Do you really think they're going to go back to smoking, or to the ineffective and stupid-expensive "FDA Approved" products? Life always finds a way, Mr. Zeller, whether you and your masters at BT and BP like it or not.

I hope you are right about the explosive growth in the next two years. Whether it is explosive or just steady, we need to find a way to harness it so we don't need to depend on a black market.

To be honest, I am shocked at the ignorance of your average vendor. Some of the ones I have talked to are clueless or extremely naive. They think it will all just blow over or they don't even have enough information to know there is a gun pointed at their head. We need vendors and suppliers to wake up and become active as well as get their customer base to get active through CASAA.

I don't like the talk of the black market at this point in the game. We need to concentrate on actions to pressure the FDA to back off.

 

[wv2win]

......................... They can't take it away. It is not like they will make them illegal or ban vaping. DIY will be the order of the day.

If they allow only sealed carts and put financial penalties in place to restrict the sale of nicotine, then DIY will save nothing. Remember, the Deeming Regulations makes equivalency relative to 2007 as the main point. That means sealed carts. And that sucked.

 

[wv2win]

The last-ever scene Robinson filmed was a euthanasia sequence in the science fiction cult film Soylent Green (1973); it is sometimes claimed that he told friend and co-star Charlton Heston that he, Robinson, had in fact only weeks to live at best. As it turned out, Robinson died only twelve days later.

wiki...

Ah, yes, I remember reading that now that you jogged my memory. I was drinking and studying my a** off in 1973.

 

[Rossum]

That depends. The cig-a-likes will keep the public informed that vaping exists. Those who use more advanced equipment will be showing the newbies how to do it. They can't take it away. It is not like they will make them illegal or ban vaping. DIY will be the order of the day.

Yep!

But the choke point for DIY will be nic. That's the one thing they can readily make difficult to obtain. Which reminds me that I should order another liter. In fact, I think I'm going to make it a goal to order a liter every month from now on. By the time that the FDA's regs take effect, that will give me a half a dozen lifetime supplies. Now, Mr. Zeller, imagine a million or two other vapers doing the same thing -- do you STILL think you can control this vaping thing? No sir, you cannot!

 

[Rossum]

Actually, the one alternative to vaping (smoking) is very effective in providing what people enjoy/want from this act. It comes with a cost, but one that millions have ignored for the last 30 years.

I don't think they ignored it; most smokers are well aware of the (potential, mostly future) cost.

I think most would rather not sneak into a back alley to buy their vaping supplies from "Joe Big" with the Glock in his waste band.

Yep, I wouldn't do business with anyone who mexican-carries a Glock either, because doing that displays a callous disregard for his own well being as well as that of the people around him. Joe should either get a decent holster or at least choose a firearm with a manual safety on it.

And considering that a huge population of vapers are 40, 50, 60 and older, I don't think they are going to be seeking out "Joe Big" in the back alley, in the "millions" as you suggest. I think you are being naive.

You know, at this point there are quite a few users of "Other_Stuff" in that age group too. Do you think they each individually seek out Joe Big in an alley? They do not. They have their own networks.

I'm not against a black market. I just don't see it as a solution to the problem.

You're right, it's not a proper solution; it's just a work-around. However, making the now almost certain "regulations" a less onerous isn't a proper solution either; that's just asking your masters not to make the chains too tight.

 

[Jman8]

I think most would rather not sneak into a back alley to buy their vaping supplies from "Joe Big" with the Glock in his waste band.

I can't believe I read 2 pages ahead and no one addressed this. Maybe I missed something?

But seriously, that is not black market. I mean other than the back alley, Joe Big, Glock and waste band part, I'd say you were pretty close.

IMO, it'll be easier to get vaping stuff than say stamps, or say tires, or perhaps even coca cola in a glass bottle. But not as easy as cola in plastic bottle. Not quite that easy.

Most kids, like water, seek the path of least resistance. There will be exceptions, but not millions. And considering that a huge population of vapers are 40, 50, 60 and older, I don't think they are going to be seeking out "Joe Big" in the back alley, in the "millions" as you suggest. I think you are being naive.

Yep. I'm the one being naive. Did Joe Big tell you say I'm being naive?

My point is that a black market will not increase the percentage of new vapers, to any substantial degree. Whatever black market might arise due to these prohibitive regulations will help a small percentage of current vapers. It will not support the growth of the vaping industry. I don't think using the example of other long term illegal black markets as a positive means to undermine these regulations, provides any sense of security, especially considering the dire consequences that millions suffered when caught by the authorities over the last 40+ years availing themselves of these black markets .

Partially agree. I think vaping black market will be way more wide open than the others.

I'm also around 95% convinced there won't really be a black market, but as prohibition of the most extensive kind is considered 'likelihood' in last month, I guess it can't be ruled out.

I'm not against a black market. I just don't see it as a solution to the problem. At best it would be a short term stop-gap for current vapers. The only solution to the issue is sustained public, political and possibly legal pressure. And if we don't find a way to mobilize all or most who currently vape, to come together and build that pressure, then we will find the result of these proposed regulations quite depressing.

To me, you are ignoring the underground market that is partially established right now and for sure will be established if/when FDA ruling goes into effect BANNING sales to minors.

I realize the other one (of the extensive kind) is more harsh, but the mention of the minor's one is entirely relevant. The cool factor based on the deception factor will go up significantly. And if the technology gets only better, I'm thinking kids (15 and up) will be far more hip to what's latest and greatest product.

An underground market is clearly a solution to the problem of outright ban among the population. And IMO, it will clearly dominate the 'movement' of keeping it illegal. It would be so utterly foolish to attempt a de facto ban of eCigs/vaping right now, I'd almost dare them to try it.

Apparently, some people think the vaping genie can be put back into the eLiquid bottle.

 

[Jman8]

It took at least 50 years for two states to legalize the formally illegal substance you are referencing. My guess it will take another 50 years, if ever, for that change to reach to all 50 states.

How many years did it take after existence of the internet for that issue to receive the attention it has now? IMO, ignoring the amount of political movement that will undoubtedly happen electronically is simply something I can no longer fathom. For us politically aware vapers, it would always be nice if there were more of that now. But given illegal substance as paradigm and 'chance next week to make it legal,' I believe there would be more interest / motivation than we currently can achieve. And we're doing pretty well so far. I'm hoping people 80 years from now appreciate our efforts here in the early going. While entirely jealous that we got to experience the golden era.

The choke point is the acquisition of nicotine formulated in a safe manner that can be used to make a consumable product. If the government decides to support their proposed regulations by strictly controlling this form of nicotine, it will NOT help create millions of new vapers.

Do you realize how strict that control would have to be for it to not create millions? I would say somewhere in the neighborhood of trying to obtain plutonium. I'm sure the world police will treat liquid nicotine on par with that.

Considering that only 2M - 3M former smokers out of 42M switched to vaping without any restrictions in place currently, the idea that a black market will vastly increase the percentage of new vapers, defies logic.

At some point, and I realize it won't be tomorrow or a week from now, vaping will stand on its own two feet. And won't need ex-smokers to be a viably marketed product. But as long as smoking is in the picture, the market will likely be there indefinitely.

From my own unscientifically supported experience, in talking with hundreds of full time and part-time local vapers, your idea that the vast majority of current vapers (not to mention new future vapers) will suddenly become DIY gurus for both e-liquid and devices is not logical at all. There will always be some, but a very small percentage.

Under most underground market scenarios, the persons with source product are a very small percentage. While the end users are too many to count. With vaping it could theoretically be 10,000. Though IMO, that number will perhaps match up with amount of 17 year olds in each state that are vaping in 2015.

If you think that waiting 50 years for the government to change it's stance on vaping is a solution, as your comparison to Colorado and Washington suggests, I think your "rose colored glasses" are really fogged up.

If you think waiting 50 years for political overturn is plausible in the information age, then I think your Google glasses are turned off.

As I stated before, IMO: The only solution to the issue is sustained public, political and possibly legal pressure. Counting on a black market just distracts from the actions that need to be taken NOW.

Black market is clearly not the solution at this point where everything is supremely legal. Yet, if on a forum where many are expressing rationale that suggests FDA current proposed regulations will equal de facto ban, I find it challenging to ignore the tangent. Partially cause those same regulations, front and center, include a blanket ban to minors and partially cause it is a product that would be super duper simple to bypass law enforcement.

Well, unless liquid nicotine is treated like Plutonium.

Globally.

 

[Jman8]

I don't like the talk of the black market at this point in the game. We need to concentrate on actions to pressure the FDA to back off.

I think Kent and I have some idea of how certain actions right now would lead to FDA backing off. And we aren't the only ones. Grandfather date adjustment is very significant item, within our grasp. Doesn't need to be perceived as end all be all with vaping going forward, but is item I think we both agree on is worthy of concentration and focus at this stage of the game. Good news is, we have at least 30 more days to make that case, and given that I've seen it in submitted comments already, I rejoice.

 

[DeeLeeKay]

If they allow only sealed carts and put financial penalties in place to restrict the sale of nicotine, then DIY will save nothing. Remember, the Deeming Regulations makes equivalency relative to 2007 as the main point. That means sealed carts. And that sucked.

Not necessarily true. The assumption is that if the regulations go through the war is lost. It is not. I can and do plan of buying many mech mods with kayfun type atomizers. Plus a supply of pure nicotine. They will not be able to regulate 18650 batteries, nor pg, vg and flavoring. RBA's would last indefinitely as would the mech mods. Enough until the tides change. How many would I be able to help personally with this in mind?

But, the war is only just begun. There are many battles left to be fought. Then there is always ways to make mech mods in a DIY type situation. Trust me there would be many people willing to machine one or two drip type RBA's. How difficult is that really?

 

[toddkuen]

Yep!

But the choke point for DIY will be nic. That's the one thing they can readily make difficult to obtain. ...

I disagree.

Its a standard industrial chemical, you can buy laboratory grade from any number of places, it can be extracted from home grown tobacco or cigarettes from a convenience store, kids harvesting tobacco in the US get so much on them they literally get sick - so get a job working the fields for 1/2 day, and its not hard to find formulas on line to make it from scratch.

People make all kinds of things they shouldn't from common chemicals, some of which they buy at Walmat (which is why Walmart limits cold medicine purchases).

Formerly legal substances are created by the metric ton (in one case long ago the DEA confiscating 200 metric tons of one, and it did nothing to the US street price) in US, Canada, and Mexico.

Personally I think people should be posting about how to make it every chance they get - make it so easy to do at home that regulating it, like other so-called "controlled" substances, is a joke.

But the FDA is really, really hoping that, after they "regulate e-cigs," you'll be a "good little person, and just start going back to the convenience store like you did before.

 

[MizMickey]

I think vapers dying after being forced to return to smoking is an important issue.

I tried to just ignore this statement and continue to read all the posts, but I couldn't manage. I really think that a group of educated and reasonable people with the facts on their side absolutely MUST avoid statements like this one. Using the word "forced" is, at best, histrionic. But worse, it is objectively and logically FALSE. The people we (as a community of activists, yes?) need to reach are the reasonable thinkers out there. Those are the people who will recognize the data and information that justifies the value and benefit of vaping as credible and worthy of attention. But not if they stop listening to us first- before they see the study or article, or whatever that reaches them. Statements like the quoted one above make smart people stop listening due to the loud ringing of their BS detectors. And then everything that comes after has lessened credibility.

And please know this post is not meant in ANY way to be argumentative or to flame the OP somehow. It is not. I just vehemently believe that words matter. How we say what we need to say profoundly affects how our message is received. This issue- that vaping be welcomed and supported by the countries we all live in matters to me, which is the only reason I opened my mouth, so to speak. I want everyone educating on our community's behalf to be as effective as possible. Just my two cents.


Mickey

 

[DeeLeeKay]

I tried to just ignore this statement and continue to read all the posts, but I couldn't manage. I really think that a group of educated and reasonable people with the facts on their side absolutely MUST avoid statements like this one. Using the word "forced" is, at best, histrionic. But worse, it is objectively and logically FALSE. The people we (as a community of activists, yes?) need to reach are the reasonable thinkers out there. Those are the people who will recognize the data and information that justifies the value and benefit of vaping as credible and worthy of attention. But not if they stop listening to us first- before they see the study or article, or whatever that reaches them. Statements like the quoted one above make smart people stop listening due to the loud ringing of their BS detectors. And then everything that comes after has lessened credibility.

And please know this post is not meant in ANY way to be argumentative or to flame the OP somehow. It is not. I just vehemently believe that words matter. How we say what we need to say profoundly affects how our message is received. This issue- that vaping be welcomed and supported by the countries we all live in matters to me, which is the only reason I opened my mouth, so to speak. I want everyone educating on our community's behalf to be as effective as possible. Just my two cents.


Mickey

There are many reasons people start smoking. Some start smoking for reasons other can't fathom. It wasn't until I started vaping and doing my research on nicotine that I did in fact realize that many people will never break the nicotine habit. Not because they want to die early, or because they want to be perceived as an evil smoker, or even because they are shaking their fists at the government regulators.

They smoke or vape and will never give up their nicotine because it treats very real illnesses such as depression, schizophrenia, ADD, PTSD etc...etal...

For those individuals patches, the gum, chantix and other NRT do not, nor will they ever work. Nor do the current FDA approved drugs. Many of them have even worse side effects then smoking. To those people vaping is a life saver. Not the cig a likes one gets at a local convenience store. It takes the advanced gen 2 and 3 vaporizers. Those in charge need to see this for what it is in all facets of the product.

If the current "deeming regulations" take EFFECT then many of these people will have no alternative but to return to smoking. Those in charge need to take responsibility for their actions and the harm it is will cause tens of thousands of people. The only way I know of is to let them know in no uncertain terms they will be sending these people back to something that will kill them.

I can appreciate your concern about possible histrionics, but for those of us with these types of illnesses it is a fact not histrionics.

 

[Stosh]

I disagree.

Its a standard industrial chemical, you can buy laboratory grade from any number of places, it can be extracted from home grown tobacco or cigarettes from a convenience store, kids harvesting tobacco in the US get so much on them they literally get sick - so get a job working the fields for 1/2 day, and its not hard to find formulas on line to make it from scratch. <snip>....

Personally I think people should be posting about how to make it every chance they get - make it so easy to do at home that regulating it, like other so-called "controlled" substances, is a joke..

The process would involve sulfuric acid (or another strong acid), lye (or another strong base) and benzine (or another strong solvent), and care would be necessary to ensure no trace amounts of the chemicals would be left in the resultant nicotine. Not a simple process, and it would result in very dangerous to handle pure nicotine. But the home laboratory ventilation hood and hazmat suit would only be part of the cost.

The kicker would be, there's only enough nicotine in a pack of cigarettes, (about 200 mg) to make one 10 mL bottle of 20 mg/mL e-liquid. Not very cost effective, and very dangerous if there's chemical residue.

 

[toddkuen]

Today we communicate wirelessly across the face of the planet among billions of cellphones and computers regarding a life-saving technology that didn't exist 7 years ago via a medium (smart phones) that didn't exist 10 years ago.

And we can't figure out some way to make non-tobacco nicotine in a cost effective, simple, clean way?

There are many opportunities for "disruptive" solutions with nicotine, e.g., google "international non tobacco nicotine prize"

And if DeeLeeKay regards vaping as a "life saving" technology - is that really histrionic?

We must make people, not just smokers or other vapers, but joe average on the street, understand vaping saves lives.

Why? Our enemies are making people think instead "vaping kills small children."

Our message needs to be "in your face" like "forced back to smoking" because, if its not, then non-vapers simply won't care or worse, believe the message of our enemies.

A small child facing the camera says "Grandma stopped smoking with her vape for over a year but now men in the government want to take her vape away - please don't let grandma die (tears run down her cheeks)"

People will remember this, they will talk about it, they will think about it, they will ask if grandma really needs to die.

If they don't hear this message, then grandma will die...

 

[MizMickey]

I can appreciate your concern about possible histrionics, but for those of us with these types of illnesses it is a fact not histrionics.

The specific statement I quoted said people would be "forced" to return to smoking. Smoking is a choice. No one was forced to start, no one is forced to continue. That is why I referred to the statement as objectively false, as that is what it is. I absolutely understand the idea behind the statement- that people unable to find other successful substitutes for nicotine will most likely return to smoking. However, they do that without a gun to their heads. I am not minimizing addiction. I smoked for over 3 decades, and tried to quit (with sincere desire and intentions) a great many times. Vaping turned out to work for me. If vaping becomes illegal tomorrow, I am still gonna crave the nicotine. I won't try the patch or gum again, because they didn't work for me. Nor will I go get Chantix or Zyban. They also did not work for me. So I would very likely go back to smoking. But I would never, in a million years, place the responsibility anywhere other than where it belongs- with me, as the one who made the choice to smoke.

So, again, the one thing that made the statement false was the word forced. I do not disagree at all with the sentiment behind the statement. If it had said, for example "leaving them with no other viable and accessible option" or something like that, I would not have blinked an eye.

How people got started or hooked on cigarettes is actually completely irrelevant to the point I was making, unless those people were forcibly compelled.

Obviously, my entire opinion flows from the underlying belief that people have free will and are responsible for the choices they make. If you disagree with my premise, then we will simply have to agree to disagree, as there really is nowhere for this conversation to go.

Now, part of your reply... I am not entirely sure if you were making the argument that nicotine is an effective treatment for the issues you listed. If you were, then I have no idea how to respond to that.

-Mickey

 

[wv2win]

Not necessarily true. The assumption is that if the regulations go through the war is lost. It is not. I can and do plan of buying many mech mods with kayfun type atomizers. Plus a supply of pure nicotine. They will not be able to regulate 18650 batteries, nor pg, vg and flavoring. RBA's would last indefinitely as would the mech mods. Enough until the tides change. How many would I be able to help personally with this in mind?

But, the war is only just begun. There are many battles left to be fought. Then there is always ways to make mech mods in a DIY type situation. Trust me there would be many people willing to machine one or two drip type RBA's. How difficult is that really?

Of course they won't go after the devices, at least not in a serious way. As I stated, all they have to control is the nicotine. And you can buy enough now to last a life time if you choose. That won't help the vaping community or any new/future vapers.

 

[wv2win]

........................

Do you realize how strict that control would have to be for it to not create millions? I would say somewhere in the neighborhood of trying to obtain plutonium. I'm sure the world police will treat liquid nicotine on par with that..................

My answer to all your other points is that it is pure conjecture on your part. There is nothing that supports your hypothesis, that our ability to vape as we do today with the Deeming Regulations unchanged, is probable. I find all of your points exceedingly vague. It would help if you would get much more specific as to how a black market would work, with no risk to anyone involved, as well as not cost an arm and a leg as you suggest.

On your point that the government will not be able to stop easy access to liquid nicotine, it would be easy for them to attack it from a financial processing standpoint. I think that should be obvious from the Paypal situation in the US. Why does Paypal refuse to support any vaping purchases in this country? Not due to any threat from the government. Just one little ANTZ group said "boo" and Paypal folded like a paper napkin. What would they have done if the US government had sent them a letter???

Now I know you are going to say there will be "work arounds" but I would like you to be more specific on how that would work, how it will not effect cost and who will be providing these work arounds.

 

[Gato del Jugo]

The process would involve sulfuric acid (or another strong acid), lye (or another strong base) and benzine (or another strong solvent), and care would be necessary to ensure no trace amounts of the chemicals would be left in the resultant nicotine. Not a simple process, and it would result in very dangerous to handle pure nicotine. But the home laboratory ventilation hood and hazmat suit would only be part of the cost.

The kicker would be, there's only enough nicotine in a pack of cigarettes, (about 200 mg) to make one 10 mL bottle of 20 mg/mL e-liquid. Not very cost effective, and very dangerous if there's chemical residue.

Thanks, Stosh!

I think I'm going to have to inform the FDA of my new plan...


Mother's in the kitchen
Washing out the jugs;
Sister's in the pantry
Bottling the suds;
Father's in the cellar
Mixing up the hops;
Johnny's on the front porch
Watching for the cops

 

[Gato del Jugo]

Well, looking on the bright side..


Worst-case scenario? We'll probably at least get some pretty cool songs out of the whole deal...


Sean Costello - "Canned Heat Blues" 02 14 08 - YouTube