FDA Why Isn't Vaping the FDA Center for Tobacco Product's Biggest Ally?

[DeeLeeKay]

Now, part of your reply... I am not entirely sure if you were making the argument that nicotine is an effective treatment for the issues you listed. If you were, then I have no idea how to respond to that.

-Mickey

http://nicotinetruth.blogspot.com/2012/03/chronic-conditions-require-ongoing.
http://journal.frontiersin.org/Journal/10.3389/fphar.2012.00173/full

I am not making up these claims. It wasn't until I talked to a schizophrenic that I realized the need, yes need for some people to never stop smoking/vaping.

The young man I talked to said to me, "If I stop smoking I will go insane". He meant it. Does he have a choice?

 

[Bobbilly]

http://nicotinetruth.blogspot.com/2012/03/chronic-conditions-require-ongoing.
http://journal.frontiersin.org/Journal/10.3389/fphar.2012.00173/full

I am not making up these claims. It wasn't until I talked to a schizophrenic that I realized the need, yes need for some people to never stop smoking/vaping.

The young man I talked to said to me, "If I stop smoking I will go insane". He meant it. Does he have a choice?

http://discovermagazine.com/2014/march/13-nicotine-fix

 

[DaveP]

It's clear that there's a dance going on between lawmakers, the FDA, and the CDC. Congress has to put forth the appearance of protecting people from a clear and dangerous threat to health from tobacco, while catering to those with deep pockets. BT pockets are deeper than vaping's pockets. Even with an accepted conclusion that vaping is far safer and probably not a danger at all, there's still the threat of lost tax money if smoking is further crippled at the legislative level. The FDA and the CDC don't want to be the ones that cause a loss of revenue, yet they want to decrease the likelihood of harm in products they allow to remain on the market.

It looks like taxing the alternative is a sure method of maintaining revenue flow. No one wants to condone it outright, but it's obvious that the powers that be in FDA/CDC are sending a message to vapers to fight for their right and accept the coming taxation. I really do believe that FDA and CDC want vaping to be the new nicotine source for smokers. They just can't make that declaration unless pressed for the details. Tax revenue hangs in the balance. The dance continues.

 

[wv2win]

....................

I really do believe that FDA and CDC want vaping to be the new nicotine source for smokers..............

I'm afraid I can't agree with this statement. And even if they did, they only want the most ineffective vaping source to be available and that BT and BP will be the only game in town. CASAA's analysis and letter to the OMB explains it quite well:

CASAA: CASAA's Comment to OMB/OIRA regarding Paperwork Reduction Act and FDA Deeming Regulation

 

[Jman8]

My answer to all your other points is that it is pure conjecture on your part. There is nothing that supports your hypothesis, that our ability to vape as we do today with the Deeming Regulations unchanged, is probable. I find all of your points exceedingly vague.

Might help if you quote my posts in entirety, rather than excerpts. I strongly believe I am giving more detailed rationale to points I make than those on the side that say "black market is not a solution" and leave things at that.

It would help if you would get much more specific as to how a black market would work, with no risk to anyone involved, as well as not cost an arm and a leg as you suggest.

Would be rather impossible to construct a black market scenario with 'no risk involved to anyone.' Can't even do that with the current legal market, but you are asking for the impossible under black market scenario.

Challenging also to say what black market will look like for you, plus challenging to offer genuine help in thread where I reckon people are looking to dismiss that option as a genuine way to obtain product under quasi-strict regulations. Also, just challenging to offer specifics about overcoming legal restrictions on an open forum. But, if genuinely interested in list of scenarios I see as viable going forward, feel free to PM me.

In general, I think you'll find local means via friends that strike you as slightly risky, but are basically trusted sources, and are not dangerous. Also plausible you'll find it online with sites that are either blatantly attempting to circumvent the restrictions or doing so in way that they realize may be questionable, but worth the risk from their end given high product demand. I also think China will on the surface give lip service to US restrictions, but have enough places online that appear like China laughs in the face of US policy on this matter.

In general, I would say that there will be a transition period that likely lasts months, if not years, and that all current vendors will be possibly willing to engage in gray-ish market where it is risky for both buyer and seller, pending outcome of litigation, but transactions will occur. The moment it becomes too risky for seller, means those products will go to places where buyers will be found, but might not be easily found via internet search engines.

On your point that the government will not be able to stop easy access to liquid nicotine, it would be easy for them to attack it from a financial processing standpoint. I think that should be obvious from the Paypal situation in the US. Why does Paypal refuse to support any vaping purchases in this country? Not due to any threat from the government. Just one little ANTZ group said "boo" and Paypal folded like a paper napkin. What would they have done if the US government had sent them a letter???

I reckon we are at least 5 years, and probably closer to a decade away from it being impossible to get liquid nic via online order. May never occur, and I imagine backdoor channels will be available forever via the net. Again, don't need for everyone to have source product for black market to operate efficiently.

Also, don't need internet to find it locally. Though, even then, I'm sure net will be used, but not for finding specific places that you can type in 'liquid nic' and get local results.

Now I know you are going to say there will be "work arounds" but I would like you to be more specific on how that would work, how it will not effect cost and who will be providing these work arounds.

It is challenging to say how costs will be effected, yet not impossible to conclude that it won't be drastic changes on cost. Here in the legal market we have sellers offering liquid at around $1 per ml, and finding buyers willing to pay that. Black market isn't one homogenous group, so there may be sellers at $1 per ml, while others find comfortable profit margin at 25 cents per ml.

One of the ways I see underground market being established is if all current vendors are allowed to operate legally, but all are in agreement that to keep things legal, it must be taxed up the wazoo, so that buyers are buying product around $1 per ml. I see an underground market cutting into that, which won't be necessarily more popular than legal market, but will allow a segment of the purchasing population to get decent product closer to 50 cents per ml.

I currently do not see an underground market being established because liquid nicotine is deemed illegal for sale anywhere in the US. I feel if that scenario were to arise, it would be at least 5 years from now, and more like a decade away.

And all this, is currently known to black market players. In fact, I could see black market people being those who favor bans, as they would stand to benefit greatly under such a scenario.

 

[Jman8]

There are many reasons people start smoking. Some start smoking for reasons other can't fathom. It wasn't until I started vaping and doing my research on nicotine that I did in fact realize that many people will never break the nicotine habit. Not because they want to die early, or because they want to be perceived as an evil smoker, or even because they are shaking their fists at the government regulators.

They smoke or vape and will never give up their nicotine because it treats very real illnesses such as depression, schizophrenia, ADD, PTSD etc...etal...

For those individuals patches, the gum, chantix and other NRT do not, nor will they ever work. Nor do the current FDA approved drugs. Many of them have even worse side effects then smoking. To those people vaping is a life saver. Not the cig a likes one gets at a local convenience store. It takes the advanced gen 2 and 3 vaporizers. Those in charge need to see this for what it is in all facets of the product.

If the current "deeming regulations" take EFFECT then many of these people will have no alternative but to return to smoking. Those in charge need to take responsibility for their actions and the harm it is will cause tens of thousands of people. The only way I know of is to let them know in no uncertain terms they will be sending these people back to something that will kill them.

I can appreciate your concern about possible histrionics, but for those of us with these types of illnesses it is a fact not histrionics.

I must say that all of this is interesting from dual user's perspective, especially as I get to read daily how much vapers who are exclusive to vaping absolutely despise BT for their products.

Yet, these same people will see no alternative but to go back to BT and use their products? I would think that would be a horrible alternative for those type of vapers. I would think one who sees writing on the wall and is convinced that vaping will be (somehow magically) illegal, that they'd do everything possible to go down to zero nic now. Not in next day or so, but a long term plan.

As one who has gone cold turkey from smoking/nicotine, and found things troublesome at times to live nic free, I would think cold turkey from vaping would be much easier than cold turkey from smoking, in terms of physiological effects during the process from full time user to zero time user.

Now, part of the point you raise is some people cannot live nic free. I consider myself as possibly in that group. If I held the view that vaping say 2 years from now may be impossible (given the political writing on the wall), I would seek professional assistance now, and make my case. I'd let my medical doctor know that I will never ever try Chantix regardless of his/her opinions on that. I would cite my rationale that I would hope convinces this doctor that gum and patches are not a solution for me. I would then listen to their advice, and here in speculation mode, would wonder what they would come up with. But, I do think part of it would be psychiatric at a certain point if I am the person ruling out all the (nic) options while claiming I need nic to survive. I also think the psychiatric professional guidance would be more valuable in this scenario than the medical one, though both could play a helpful role.

I would think it possible for a great many, politically aware vapers, to get a whole bunch of doctors who essentially unite and make the claim to FDA/CDC that vaping must be kept legal, for reasons that this thread has brought up in last few pages. That a black market is inevitable otherwise, to help save lives, and possibly having these doctors openly admit that they might participate in such a market as they have acute awareness on the matter.

Now granted, it is possible that vaping will go the way of medical device regulations through FDA, and there will be products that help 'save lives' via vaping, but instead of being manufactured by vaping vendor or BT, are instead distributed by BP.

I would just suggest that if you are self convinced that you might have no alternative but to go back to smoking, that you consider becoming a dual user now. Get over your hatred of BT and their products as that is challenging for me to understand today, even while it is the popular position. But becomes very challenging to understand that anyone would go back to that as default option, yet feels perfectly okay bashing BT every chance they get today.

I personally feel likely to go cold turkey and give that another try in face of (hypothetical) harsh regulations, than to return to full time smoking. And chances are great that if you went the cold turkey route, you'd have a whole lot of people (arguably everyone you know plus more) who would support you in that and help along the way.

 

[DeeLeeKay]

I understand where you are coming from. Fortunately for me I only have PTSD and ADD. The nicotine in the e juice helps me just fine. If I needed to seriously get my nic, I would grow my own tobacco plants and use pg to extract the nicotine from it. Went to BP and the drugs they use were horrible. It basically left me emotionally dead. I do not want to go back there. As far as going back to BT? I do not need to.

However, there are other things in tobacco plants, that a certain segment of smokers seem to need. They are the WTA's. For this reason I do not judge anyone in their ability to quit smoking. I, personally, would like to see BP to come out with an e liquid for those smokers who seem to need the "extra" stuff. I would prefer BP rather then BT because they are not trust worthy in my book.

There are doctors who are starting to recommend vaping to their smoking patients. At least here in SWPA.

 

[MizMickey]

http://nicotinetruth.blogspot.com/2012/03/chronic-conditions-require-ongoing.
Frontiers | Cotinine: Beyond that Expected, More than a Biomarker of Tobacco Consumption | Neuropharmacology

I am not making up these claims. It wasn't until I talked to a schizophrenic that I realized the need, yes need for some people to never stop smoking/vaping.

The young man I talked to said to me, "If I stop smoking I will go insane". He meant it. Does he have a choice?

Oh my god. Seriously????? I am not having this ridiculous conversation. If you ever wish to address the actual point I was making, great. Until then, this is a waste of everybody's time. Not to mention, extremely annoying. To be perfectly clear, I am not going to discuss nicotine as a wonder drug. Has zero to do with my original comment- just a red herring dumped into my lap. So, if you have an actual comment about the specific point I was making, glad to hear it. If irrelevant emotional arguments are all you wish to engage in, count me out.

Well, I was very curious how a bit constructive criticism would be received. Now I know, and will keep it off ECF.

And just to be as crystal clear as possible, as it seems necessary- my post was not an attack on anyone. Your defensive response is completely unwarranted, not to mention OFF-TOPIC.

-Mickey

 

[DeeLeeKay]

Oh my god. Seriously????? I am not having this ridiculous conversation. If you ever wish to address the actual point I was making, great. Until then, this is a waste of everybody's time. Not to mention, extremely annoying. To be perfectly clear, I am not going to discuss nicotine as a wonder drug. Has zero to do with my original comment- just a red herring dumped into my lap. So, if you have an actual comment about the specific point I was making, glad to hear it. If irrelevant emotional arguments are all you wish to engage in, count me out.

Well, I was very curious how a bit constructive criticism would be received. Now I know, and will keep it off ECF.

And just to be as crystal clear as possible, as it seems necessary- my post was not an attack on anyone. Your defensive response is completely unwarranted, not to mention OFF-TOPIC.

-Mickey

I am sorry I offended you. I was hoping to give a broader look at the issues for many smokers. I failed.

 

[MizMickey]

http://nicotinetruth.blogspot.com/2012/03/chronic-conditions-require-ongoing.
Frontiers | Cotinine: Beyond that Expected, More than a Biomarker of Tobacco Consumption | Neuropharmacology

I am not making up these claims.

Never said you did. I said I was not sure that was the argument you were making. And the reason I was not sure how to respond to that? Because I don't care to involve myself in that particular topic. Feel free to immediately start speculating as to why, and when you settle on one that gets your defensive juices flowing, go to town.

-Mickey

 

[MizMickey]

I am sorry I offended you. I was hoping to give a broader look at the issues for many smokers. I failed.

IF you failed,it was because you brought a golf club to a tennis match. Two entirely different and unrelated subjects. I got so annoyed because you did not address my point once! Not even tangentially. Not even sure if you got it. Instead, a whole other discussion, in a defensive "please respect the plight of blah blah blah" sort of reaction. So, to get sucked into defending my post in this manner was unbelievably irksome.

 

[DeeLeeKay]

Never said you did. I said I was not sure that was the argument you were making. And the reason I was not sure how to respond to that? Because I don't care to involve myself in that particular topic. Feel free to immediately start speculating as to why, and when you settle on one that gets your defensive juices flowing, go to town.

-Mickey

You are within your rights to not involve yourself. However, I am also within my rights to point out why it is hard if not impossible for many people to stop smoking.

 

[DeeLeeKay]

IF you failed,it was because you brought a golf club to a tennis match. Two entirely different and unrelated subjects. I got so annoyed because you did not address my point once! Not even tangentially. Not even sure if you got it. Instead, a whole other discussion, in a defensive "please respect the plight of blah blah blah" sort of reaction. So, to get sucked into defending my post in this manner was unbelievably irksome.

Your original point was to stop the histrionics. I was simply pointing out that for some people it is not histrionics, but a matter of life and death. My tennis swing just changed the trajectory of the ball.

 

[Stosh]

.....If I needed to seriously get my nic, I would grow my own tobacco plants and use pg to extract the nicotine from it.

However, there are other things in tobacco plants, that a certain segment of smokers seem to need. They are the WTA's.....

Not happening, PG extractions may yeild about the same nicotine level as eating an eggplant and pepper casserole. WTAs are even trickier to extract from tobacco, yielding the compounds desired without impurities.

I've read this "solution" to the FDA in many threads, don't worry be happy, nicotine will always be easily available. Unless you're a competent chemist with access to a well equipped laboratory and a large supply of homegrown tax-free tobacco, it's not an option.

I worry too many veteran vapers see as a future, "get a mech and rebuildable and nic will always be available, just cook up a batch on the kitchen stove". It's like saying you can get a few chemicals, make your own synthetic thread, weave some cloth and free clothes for life....

 

[MizMickey]

And if DeeLeeKay regards vaping as a "life saving" technology - is that really histrionic?

Our message needs to be "in your face" like "forced back to smoking" because, if its not, then non-vapers simply won't care or worse, believe the message of

Sigh. One, I did not refer to anything DeeLeeKay said as histrionic. Red herring, again. The word histrionic was used in the original post to characterize the use of the word forced (and histrionic was the more benign characterization, btw) It was never said to her, not by me.

Two, if you really believe that the only way to get non-vapers to listen is to exaggerate and lie to them, then we have very different points of view and it is unlikely the twain shall meet.

-Mickey

 

[DeeLeeKay]

Not happening, PG extractions may yeild about the same nicotine level as eating an eggplant and pepper casserole. WTAs are even trickier to extract from tobacco, yielding the compounds desired without impurities.

I've read this "solution" to the FDA in many threads, don't worry be happy, nicotine will always be easily available. Unless you're a competent chemist with access to a well equipped laboratory and a large supply of homegrown tax-free tobacco, it's not an option.

I worry too many veteran vapers see as a future, "get a mech and rebuildable and nic will always be available, just cook up a batch on the kitchen stove". It's like saying you can get a few chemicals, make your own synthetic thread, weave some cloth and free clothes for life....

really? Here in PA we can grow tobacco for personal use. I own 50 acres of land. Now just to find a way to get it into liquid form

 

[MizMickey]

Your original point was to stop the histrionics. I was simply pointing out that for some people it is not histrionics, but a matter of life and death. My tennis swing just changed the trajectory of the ball.

OK. You just very clearly demonstrated that you do not understand my post. I am not a teacher, so I have no interest in leading logic and reading comprehension lectures, so this conversation is over. I cannot have an intelligent conversation with someone who does not understand the argument. "Changed the trajectory of the ball"?? God, that was hilarious, tho I doubt you intended it to be or would get why it was.

This is akin to arguing with a cat. Pointless.

 

[DeeLeeKay]

Sigh. One, I did not refer to anything DeeLeeKay said as histrionic. Red herring, again. The word histrionic was used in the original post to characterize the use of the word forced (and histrionic was the more benign characterization, btw) It was never said to her, not by me.

Two, if you really believe that the only way to get non-vapers to listen is to exaggerate and lie to them, then we have very different points of view and it is unlikely the twain shall meet.

-Mickey

The op is my husband. His involvement is directly related to me. Thus the comment is directly aimed at me. The public needs to understand the truth. Not be given feel good sound bites. I am not lying or exaggerating. For me it is a matter of life and death. My mother died of lung cancer.

 

[Stosh]

really? Here in PA we can grow tobacco for personal use. I own 50 acres of land. Now just to find a way to get it into liquid form

Find a good chemist, it's an involved and inherently dangerous process. Most of the processes you can "google" are bogus, and the ones that are more accurate are very lacking in safety or necessary testing.

 

[DeeLeeKay]

Find a good chemist, it's an involved and inherently dangerous process. Most of the processes you can "google" are bogus, and the ones that are more accurate are very lacking in safety or necessary testing.

Maybe I will have to do that Seriously, though nicotine can currently be bought over the counter. Where does it say in the regulations this would be changed?

I am just asking.