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Why snus? Why not snus?

Discussion in 'Smokeless tobacco' started by Vapenstein, Jan 11, 2016.

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  1. Vapenstein

    Vapenstein Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Oct 4, 2010
    Good questions. From where I sit:

    Why snus?
    1. No drip. This means you never need to spit like chewing tobacco and American moist snuff necessitates. This makes snus a very discreet means of nicotine delivery for all the time you spend in places where tobacco use and vaping is prohibited.

    2. Steam pasteurized. Unlike American moist snuffs which are heat fermented, most Swedish snus is steam pasteurized, meaning the cancer causing elements that form due to heat and fermentation are eliminated or at the very least reduced to barely measurable levels compared to other forms of oral tobacco. Oden's may be an exception as there is evidence out there suggestion at least part of their catalog is heat fermented and not steam pasteurized. From every test and study that I've seen regarding Swedish snus, it's the next safest means of nicotine delivery after vaping.

    For me, discretion and tobacco harm reduction are big pluses in the argument for Swedish snus.

    Why not snus?
    1. Availability. The good stuff is only available from Sweden via the internet. That makes it kind of a hobbyist's means of tobacco use, and shipping is high as well. Yes you can buy General brand here in the States, but a very limited line of product that does not work for everyone, myself included.

    2. Low impact nicotine delivery. Here I'm talking to former users of American moist snuff, and the very few nasal snuff users out there. Swedish snus has a pretty mild kick to it. I dipped and I used nasal snuff for years. I have to use ultra strong Swedish snus or it doesn't work for me, and even then I wish it had more kick. That brings the added problem that there just isn't that much product out there for me to choose from. Snus does the job and takes the edge off, but it is not satisfying like throwing in a big dip of Cope.

    3. Cost. It costs more to use than vaping, ryo and nasal snuff.

    I use ultra strong white portion. I think that white portion has much cleaner tobacco flavor than standard portions. It lasts longer too, but that kind of depends on the snus as well. I can leave a portion of The Lab No. 07 in for an hour, but Skruf Xtra Stark, Thunder Ultra and Oden's Extreme and I can't get it out of my mouth fast enough after 30 minutes.

    For me Swedish snus is kind of a compromise. I use it at work because I like the positives, but I also find it a little unsatisfying compared to other forms of nicotine delivery. I am also very limited on product I find desirable due to the lack of selection of ultra strong white portions.

    Here are a few microreviews:

    The Lab No. 07 (extra strong, white)
    My favorite. The taste is the best, the burn is ok, and it lasts. I wish it had more burn and it'd be perfect for me. Tobacco foremost and kind of a wood-y, herb-y thing flavorwise. Not fatiguing and very palatable.

    Skruf Xtra Stark White (extra strong, white)
    meh. Flavor goes south pretty fast and tastes raunchy quick. Also lacking in strength.

    General G3 (extra strong, standard)
    Not a fan of the General flavor profile. Tobacco, bergamot and salt. Sounds great, but General just kind of tastes generic. Not enough flavor, not enough strength here. Need to try the white version, but I'm not expecting much.

    Thunder Ultra White (ultra strong, white)
    Pretty good for a budget snus. Straightforward tobacco flavor. Overall impression was meh though because I didn't stick a roll in my cart after using a tin. Not terribly long lasting with just ok flavor. Strong enough. Good but not great.

    Various Oden's
    none of these did it for me, except the Extreme White Dry Portion. The problem there is, there are only 13 portions in a tin, compared to 24 for most snus. Yes it's a budget snus, but by the time you buy two rolls to compensate for the skimpy portion amount it ends up costing more than the premium brands. Also, the pouch material tears up my gums, which no other snus does. So I like that one Oden's snus, but it has two knocks against it. Other than that, it's strong enough, the flavor is good, and it lasts. Oh, and there is a wintergreen version of this snus that is also good. The rest of the Oden's line is strong enough, but the flavors range from too subtle to too weird, and the non-white portions all taste awful after 30 minutes. Any of their menthol (double mint varieties) actually elicits a gag response from me. I find them so horrible they literally almost make me puke.

    Lots of good info on snus out there, Google and Youtube can help. If you're not addicted to some high octane version of nicotine delivery like I am, then product selection really opens up with a lot more standard strength products and your chances of finding a satisfying snus will be all the greater.
     
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  2. hittman

    hittman ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Nice post. I vape and use snus but spend way more on vaping than I do snus. I DIY my liquids and make my own coils but vaping has become more of a hobby for me as it seems I always feel the need to buy a new tank or device to try. I am lucky in the fact that regular portions work for me most of the time except in the morning. I use a portion of thunder raspberry in the morning and general mint the rest of the day. I found a place locally where I can buy mint for 2.59 all the time and only need to order thunder about once a year. I go thru 5-7 portions of general a day so a can lasts me about three days or so. I've already spent more on vaping stuff this month than what I will on snus for the whole month. I know I don't necessarily need more vaping stuff but it's a bit of an addiction in its own right.
     
  3. Stubby

    Stubby Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Apr 22, 2009
    Madison, WI USA
    I few things I would disagree with on this. There is no evidence that snus is less harmful then dip. I know it has been a common believe among USA snus users, but if you look to the actual science and studies there are no real differences in health outcomes between dip and snus.

    It is also highly debatable that smokeless tobacco is more risky then vaping. There are THR advocates that have said that smokeless tobacco may very well be a bit less harmful then vaping, and they have a good point. On population levels smokeless tobacco has vanishingly low risk, meaning nothing really shows up for issues compared to non-tobacco users. With vaping you are inhaling something, including flavors, with no data on long terms effects. It could be nothing to be concerned about, or there could be a few issues. The next 30 years or so will tell us. If there are differences in risk between any of these products it is likely so small as to never be able to actually measure it. It is simply a matter of personal choice. Whatever works for you is the best.

    You seem to be comparing snus with dip and that brings up some other issues. Snus is not dip, just as vaping is not smoking. Overall snus is milder in flavor then dip. It is also not sweet as no sugar or molasses is added. It is not going to have the bite that dip has. It can take a while to adjust to that. The nicotine is certainly there. You might be confusing the two. Being a dipper you might want to try some loose.
     
  4. Vapenstein

    Vapenstein Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Oct 4, 2010
    • Like Like x 2
  5. Stubby

    Stubby Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Apr 22, 2009
    Madison, WI USA
    If you understand the actual science you would understand that even traditional US style smokeless is well below the level concern. This means that it doesn't matter if some theoretical toxins are higher in this or that product, as it still below any level that would be cause for any real issues. I guess a person who is a bit obsessive compulsive about it could compare the numbers and make choices based on that, but in the real world it makes no difference. The studies on outcomes bare this out.

    There is a ton of evidence out there, but it all points to the fact that once you get rid combustion, essentially all of the smokeless tobacco products sold in the West have such low risk it doesn't really matter which one you use. Dip can be a bit harder on the gums, likely because of the sugar, but outside of that it is all just personal preference.

    You might want to look into the writings of Brad Rodu and Carl Phillips to get up to speed on this. In the USA we have been misinformed for decades about the dangers of smokeless, and especially dip and chew. It really can mess with our reasoning.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. Vapenstein

    Vapenstein Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Oct 4, 2010
    so what's your point? You just felt the need to be a jerk today and post a long, condescending, edited post on a web forum at 4am? Take it from me, no one is ever won over to your point of view through negativity. Web forum threads are not a contest with a winner and a loser. Go to bed.
     
  7. The Rebel

    The Rebel Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jul 15, 2010
    Grand Rapids, Michigan
    Hey Vapenstein, just curious. What was the point of your post in the first place? I see no rhyme or reason to it. Is it a blog misplaced? Did someone asked you those questions and asked you to post your thoughts on them? I'm a little confused on the why?
     
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