Why so many members take issue with the FDA

[Coastal Cowboy]

Most people would like to see some sort of regulation, such as not selling to minors, and you don’t have to worry about what is in your juice if you make it yourself. But what happens when it is heavily taxed, regulated and falsely vilified to the point where it’s not even an option to current and future smokers who want to quit. You think that is okay? Perhaps put them all on Chantix and see how many make it out the other end alive and in one stable piece? I think all anyone wants is some common, honest sense from them but past actions don’t indicate that is likely.

It's important to remember that FDA has no taxing authority. That authority lies solely with the US Congress, and all bills that generate new tax revenues must originate in the House of Representatives. Honestly, do you see this House proposing new taxes? I don't. I also don't see Congress delegating that constitutional authority to any agency of the Executive branch. Our co-equal branches of government are .... about protecting their turf.

I concur that most people want to see reasonable regulations imposed, including a reasonably implementable means of preventing sales to minors, full disclosure of ingredients on labels and warnings about the potential dangers of ingesting or using liquids irresponsibly. Most of the reputable liquid vendors are already complying with ingredient disclosure and warning labels, and no one I know of allows minors to make a purchase.

Every can or bottle of beer sold in the US contains a label warning against use during pregnancy and reminding beer drinkers that consumption can impair the ability to operate a motor vehicle or machinery.

ORLY?

 

[Anjaffm]

[OT]

Now I have jumped into it, too. You guys are a bad influence!

I am writing myself a citation!

*hops up and down*
Of course I am a bad influence!
I vape! And I do not trust governments / governmental agencies / allegedly "ideological" organizations / and especially allgedly "ideological" organizations who are paid by a big huge industry while, at the same time, claiming that only THEY know what is good for US...
In addition, I have a lot of links that expose their lies

Yeah... baaaad influence indeed *evil grin*

Do I get a citation too? For being a bad influence? Pretty please?

[/OT]

 

[CaliforniaGirl]

[OT]



*hops up and down*
Of course I am a bad influence!
I vape! And I do not trust governments / governmental agencies / allegedly "ideological" organizations / and especially allgedly "ideological" organizations who are paid by a big huge industry while, at the same time, claiming that only THEY know what is good for US...
In addition, I have a lot of links that expose their lies

Yeah... baaaad influence indeed *evil grin*

Do I get a citation too? For being a bad influence? Pretty please?

[/OT]

I consider all this a FABULOUS influence! Rock on, Anjaffm!

 

[wv2win]

I read the post you quoted from the FDA, and I don't get you're point.... the FDA is not trying to hurt you. They didn't even say that they will ban or do really anything with e-cigarrettes.

You took issue with their testing of several e-juice brands... but all they said was that there is a LACK OF QUALITY CONTROL. That is true... IMO E-juice manufacturers SHOULD have to submit their products for testing. Frankly, you have ZERO IDEA what these guys put in the juice. ZERO. Then you complain about their use of the word "puff"... they are describing a uniform amount of vapor coming out of the e-cig... would you be OK with it if they used the word "drag" or "pull"?

The FDA, the government, politicians are in no way worse than what you would find in big business at the highest tiers... in fact they are substantially better because unlike CEOs and COOs of big companies, the whole country gets to look at their paycheck, and what they spent it on.

You guys whining about the FDA... I can't wait till they do start testing this stuff and they find all sorts of insane chemicals you never could've imagined... you'll be BEGGING them to regulate E-Juice.

Really? How does the FDA's past actions regarding vaping or the de-facto ban of vaping through their "deeming" regulations equate to trusting their judgement on this issue? I wasn't aware that "just off the top of my head" is equivalent to "research".

 

[Robino1]

Now I have jumped into it, too. You guys are a bad influence!

I am writing myself a citation!

I'll give you a citation

On track: the FDA is in bed with politics. There is no way to divorce the two. If it is not political, then the FDA is in bed with BP. Public perception has to change. It is happening, very slowly though. We need time, God do we need time! Each vaper knows people and as our numbers grow, so does knowledge. In ever widening circles.

Just look at the jump in membership both with ECF and CASAA in this last year. I have to believe that this...amazingly effective product will win out in the end.

I can so see me joining with thousands and thousands of other vapers marching on Washington if they try to take these away from us. The ANTZ are running scared, just look at the volume of crap they have been putting out recently. Guess what, we are getting press too, Finally! As we keep pressure on our 'officials' they will hear us.

We finally got a seat with the FDA. That has to mean something.....doesn't it?!?

 

[Anjaffm]

..........
Now, why do we not just let that TR..oll go back to his tobacco cigarette? After all, there are a lot of studies about what is in those.... a nice, wholesome, natural product, is it not? With a clear declaration of the contents on each package... err... After all, nobody is forcing anybody to use a product whom he / she / it definitely mistrusts.

Unless, of course, said person spoke out of a ignorance of the facts and will actually take the time to read the links and gain knowledge about a lot of facts. I, for one, will not hold my breath though...

............

From the postings seen here, the history that Uma kindly gave the link to, and a lot of actions / non-actions of the FDA, it seems clear to me that any trust in this agency would be greatly misplaced. After all, Why Is The FDA Shielding Smokers From The Good News About E-Cigarettes? - Forbes

 

[zahzoo]

WILL be ready to fight them

My apologies if I wander too far off topic.

While it's good to gain knowledge and understanding of why certain negative assessments of the FDA exist within the community. We will soon face them directly. I can tell you I have learned quite a lot the last couple of days reading in this thread another on the subject of the FDA.

It's interesting the various perceptions and experiences noted. I've had to have FDA certification for IT Services purposes annually. So I know about their history, mission, procedures, processes, policies, etc... I've also observed how things really work with the FDA having provided IT services to several different Pharmaceutical companies. There's a whole lot of bureaucratic regulatory boloney involved... some good... a lot senseless and wasteful from a time and cost perspective. Overall I'm skeptical of the whole lot of em!!

Given a short runway ahead... wouldn't our time be better spent learning the processes and communication channels best used for once the FDA makes it's regulation proposals known. Seems we may have a huge opportunity to voice our opposition and the better we can prepare and coordinate responses. Maybe a better result can come of this impending show-down?

 

[TreVader]

WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG

all of you, wrong...

A few points I'd like to address:
1. You complain about the FDA releasing what they found in ONLY A FEW E-juices, saying it's "unfairly blanketing" the rest of the juices that were not analyzed. THE FIRST THING the FDA does is tell you " FDA has not evaluated any e-cigarettes for safety or effectiveness. " They aren't saying anything about the OTHER e-juices... they just released WHAT THEY FOUND. Would you prefer them to lie? Just because the results didn't please you, doesn't mean they are wrong. If they "unfairly" brand other e-juices, tough titties life ain't fair, and maybe next time they test, e-juice manufacturers will do a better job of keeping random crap out of their juice.
2. You claim the FDA is different because CEOs and COOs are "payed by merit"... WRONG, many CEOs inherit their position, and the rest usually achieve it through backstabbing their "friends" and colleagues. If that's what you call "merit" then i guess you're right. Only idiots believe that everybody who is rich and powerful somehow achieved their wealth and power because they are geniuses or wonderful people. 99% of the time, they got lucky. Lucky enough to be born into wealth... lucky enough to be born a man, lucky enough to be born in this country....I could go on.
3.Then you guys go on to talk about how the FDA is "blinded by money" and stilted against e-cigs... HOW IS IT POSSIBLE THAT THEY ARE BLINDED BY MONEY, YET THEY ALSO SOMEHOW ARE NOT RELIABLE BECAUSE THEY AREN'T PAYED LIKE CEOs? You're all over the place with these criticisms. The FDA gets zero extra cash for voting down e-cigs.


[moderated]

 

[Ken_A]

Let's not gang up on anyone here guys. An uninformed opinion is still an opinion. And we are all allowed to have one.

Encourage someone to read the available data:yes
Tell someone they are cracked or a troll because they do not agree:no

You cannot have a discussion without some disagreement. If you did, then it would be called a revival meeting.

And we ARE trying to show people why we do not agree with the current FDA trend to control yet another aspect of our lives. We have to accept that even other vapers may not agree with our assessment.

To anyone who thinks I should trust the FDA, please provide me with some examples of how they have helped me to vape.

 

[DC2]

Given a short runway ahead... wouldn't our time be better spent learning the processes and communication channels best used for once the FDA makes it's regulation proposals known. Seems we may have a huge opportunity to voice our opposition and the better we can prepare and coordinate responses. Maybe a better result can come of this impending show-down?

Don't worry, we know the proper channels for communicating our opposition.
And you can bet it will be posted all over this forum if the proposed regulations get ugly.

What I am thinking about is how to get every electronic cigarette vendor in the country to motivate their customer base.
That is what will really be needed, should that time come.

 

[DC2]

WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG

No sir, you are wrong.

But I'm glad you're able to tell many of us who have fought this battle for years how we are wrong.
The FDA has made clear their intentions, and it has been posted in this thread many times exactly how to see their intentions.

What is your angle?

 

[EddardinWinter]

WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG

all of you, wrong...

A few points I'd like to address:
1. You complain about the FDA releasing what they found in ONLY A FEW E-juices, saying it's "unfairly blanketing" the rest of the juices that were not analyzed. THE FIRST THING the FDA does is tell you " FDA has not evaluated any e-cigarettes for safety or effectiveness. " They aren't saying anything about the OTHER e-juices... they just released WHAT THEY FOUND. Would you prefer them to lie? Just because the results didn't please you, doesn't mean they are wrong. If they "unfairly" brand other e-juices, tough titties life ain't fair, and maybe next time they test, e-juice manufacturers will do a better job of keeping random crap out of their juice.
2. You claim the FDA is different because CEOs and COOs are "payed by merit"... WRONG, many CEOs inherit their position, and the rest usually achieve it through backstabbing their "friends" and colleagues. If that's what you call "merit" then i guess you're right. Only idiots believe that everybody who is rich and powerful somehow achieved their wealth and power because they are geniuses or wonderful people. 99% of the time, they got lucky. Lucky enough to be born into wealth... lucky enough to be born a man, lucky enough to be born in this country....I could go on.
3.Then you guys go on to talk about how the FDA is "blinded by money" and stilted against e-cigs... HOW IS IT POSSIBLE THAT THEY ARE BLINDED BY MONEY, YET THEY ALSO SOMEHOW ARE NOT RELIABLE BECAUSE THEY AREN'T PAYED LIKE CEOs? You're all over the place with these criticisms. The FDA gets zero extra cash for voting down e-cigs.


[moderated]

Did you read the link I re-posted for you? I really think it would be helpful. Please stop calling people names and 'shouting' in all caps.

 

[Anjaffm]

To anyone who thinks I should trust the FDA, please provide me with some examples of how they have helped me to vape.

(.. ignores yelling troll....)

Hm... as to the upcoming FDA decision: I wonder whether they will act any differently from their attempted action in 2009: The Rest of the Story: Tobacco News Analysis and Commentary: Despite 98 Suicides and 188 Suicide Attempts Reported Among Chantix Users and No Deaths Reported for E-Cigarettes, FDA Would Rather You Use Chantix

 

[cmdebrecht]

Like Flamingo tutu said, I wouldn't want to live in a world without the FDA either.

That being said, it is both our right and responsibility to question those in positions of power and authority. Whether it's the FDA, Congress, Board of Education, or pastors and teachers. It's our job to keep them honest and on their toes. No one should answer to no one. Accountability is sorely lacking in our society.

 

[DC2]

Nuh-uh

no you are

I must concede in the face of such an overwhelming refutation.
You sir, have won this battle.

 

[bosun]

"The masters make the rules,
for the wise men and the fools."

B. Dylan
It's All Right Ma (I'm Only Bleeding)"

 

[Anjaffm]

(makes happy use of the "ignore" button... children will play, but they do not need to yell in my ear...)

Like Flamingo tutu said, I wouldn't want to live in a world without the FDA either.

That being said, it is both our right and responsibility to question those in positions of power and authority. Whether it's the FDA, Congress, Board of Education, or pastors and teachers. It's our job to keep them honest and on their toes. No one should answer to no one. Accountability is sorely lacking in our society.

Good point about accountability.
Especially when it comes to a decision about a product that can save lives and for which no negative side effects have been shown / experienced / found in any of the many studies that have been done on the subject.

 

[Coastal Cowboy]

To deftly swing this thread back on topic, despite the best efforts of a dedicated TROLL...

We take issue with FDA because like all bureaucracies, FDA will take the path of least resistance. No bureaucrat with any sense of job security ever writes or approves regulations that leave their butts hanging in the wind. That means they bend to whatever wind blows strongest.

The most effective way of stopping a bureaucratic crusader is to tell his boss that by buying off on what his underling is doing, he'll have his ... hanging out, free for the public spanking and amusement.

 

[FlamingoTutu]

It's important to remember that FDA has no taxing authority. That authority lies solely with the US Congress, and all bills that generate new tax revenues must originate in the House of Representatives. Honestly, do you see this House proposing new taxes? I don't. I also don't see Congress delegating that constitutional authority to any agency of the Executive branch. Our co-equal branches of government are .... about protecting their turf.

I concur that most people want to see reasonable regulations imposed, including a reasonably implementable means of preventing sales to minors, full disclosure of ingredients on labels and warnings about the potential dangers of ingesting or using liquids irresponsibly. Most of the reputable liquid vendors are already complying with ingredient disclosure and warning labels, and no one I know of allows minors to make a purchase.

Every can or bottle of beer sold in the US contains a label warning against use during pregnancy and reminding beer drinkers that consumption can impair the ability to operate a motor vehicle or machinery.

ORLY?

But it’s not just the feds that can tax. I read this by Kaisen yesterday, “[snip] I live in MN, and the law here as of July 1, 2013 is that a private individual that orders online must pay 95% tax on anything that ships into the state that contains tobacco derivative, including tobacco-based nicotine. So if I order $50 I liquid from Mt Baker Vapor, I must notify the state and write them a check for $47.50 in tax. If I walk into a B&M store, they already paid the 95%. You can bet that more states will follow suit, regardless of the FDA's position.” 95%?! I read that and just about ordered another 500ml of nic after I climbed back into my chair. Sooner or later they are going start taxing this stuff, once they can keep the government open, and the more they can vilify it the higher they can tax it without the general public really noticing. JMHO.

 

[NiNi]

I just picked up my prescription of Effexor (Venlafaxine) and it came with this wonderful new 2 sided sheet (6 pt. type) of warnings that was revised in Dec 2012. December 2012. Mighty white of someone to notify me of these additional DANGERS almost a year AFTER the FACT. The pharmacists said they just received these from the FDA.
Wait....most of these "dangers" are exactly what I'm taking Effexor to prevent........? And didn't the FDA originally approve this medication in 1993 based on the BP's "thorough testing" of this product?

At the very end of this 2 sided, "get out your magnifying glass", head ache causing, fear wrenching "list", right above the "Revised December 2012" is:
"This Medication Guide has been approved by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration for all antidepressants."

Seriously............why would ANYONE TRUST the FDA?