Hi Randy C ... basically, this is similar to what I mean ... nicotine being very hard for everyone to obtain except BT ... and the suppliers we know now, only permitted to sell to BT
Yeh.... I guess we're saying the same thing...
Why the FDA can NOT make illegal E-Cigs (false concern), Usage Bans in Public are the REAL problem
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Yeh.... I guess we're saying the same thing...
Trust me, there will be cooperation among the larger e-cig vendors to fight this. Might not sound like much but we have $800,000 saved for litigation and have talked to 8 other vendors all using the same attorneys. Together, we should have enough money to go to Federal District Court and the Federal Appellate Court. Between us we should have $6 million for legal fees. All is not lost.
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I have enjoyed this thread tremendously since it is very informative versus all of the grim news. I wrote this elsewhere and believe me when I say this; I would pitch in financially for this cause as I am sure many others would also;
" In my inexperienced view we should all pitch in to have Attorneys launch a Class Action Lawsuit until they prove beyond a reasonable doubt that vaping is harmful. Personally, as you can see by my banner I am outraged since I have had no interest to return back to Smoking Analogs and future Smokers are possibly being prevented from the same luxury as me to get off of them ".
Merry Christmas to all.
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If the firearms industry is a sign of things to come, given how the government is trying to overstep their boundaries and our tried and true second amendment rights by forcing control to the extremes, I'd say the majority of the bans and regulations will remain in the core states which are already showing their .... (self-moderated). Those states would be none other than New York and California. Of course, other states will/may follow with certain bans, or perhaps the same ones, as some are with firearms, but I don't see it happening to the US as a whole.
We're not talking about a controlled substance, we're talking about nicotine. While the government doesn't always do the smart thing, and they don't always do the right thing, if they, or the FDA (if they had the power), handed control of nicotine over to BT, it'd be nearly the same thing as a monopoly, which would give them absolute control over what can and cannot be done. Large Corporations with equally large pockets cannot garner that much control and to allow BT to do so would cause quite a shock wave while setting the scene for other companies to step up and do the same in other industries.
Yes, large corporations can garner mass-market control, but they cannot control the market and say what goes and what doesn't, otherwise Apple & Microsoft would be frothing at the brim for a piece of that action. They'd love to see it happen, but that would allow one company too much control for their own good, just as it'd allow BT too much control while putting small tobacco farmers out of business quicker than they already are.
We're not talking about a controlled substance, we're talking about nicotine. While the government doesn't always do the smart thing, and they don't always do the right thing, if they, or the FDA (if they had the power), handed control of nicotine over to BT, it'd be nearly the same thing as a monopoly, which would give them absolute control over what can and cannot be done. Large Corporations with equally large pockets cannot garner that much control and to allow BT to do so would cause quite a shock wave while setting the scene for other companies to step up and do the same in other industries.
Yes, large corporations can garner mass-market control, but they cannot control the market and say what goes and what doesn't, otherwise Apple & Microsoft would be frothing at the brim for a piece of that action. They'd love to see it happen, but that would allow one company too much control for their own good, just as it'd allow BT too much control while putting small tobacco farmers out of business quicker than they already are.
Very much agree with this sentiment.
This thread, almost by itself, lifted my spirits after participating in another thread where I was outnumbered and seemingly the only pro-vaper in the crowd. Fairly certain my opponents from that thread would disagree with that assertion, but I stand by it. Pro-vaping at times requires optimism and going the extra mile to realize what we are actually up against. This thread helped me keep that perspective and maintain optimism.
Thats what I keep saying the vaping community will not go down w/o a fight.
There are people that are ready to fight this, we got this people.
Seeing your added to the joy of my day
There will be a fight in Ca.........................................
No one is going to take this lying down
I like the prediction made by Dr JF Etter from : Stop Tabac
this comes from:
http://www.ecigarettedirect.co.uk/ashtray-blog/2013/12/2014-electronic-cigarette-predictions.html
The highlights are my own, I do think it is a very important point I have tried to make but never with Dr Etter eloquence.
________________________________________________________________________________
2014 will be a crucial year, with new regulations applying to e-cigs in the US, the EU and elsewhere. The impact of these legislations cannot be overestimated (700000 persons die each year in the EU from smoking-related diseases, and 430000 in the US).
The outcome of the legislative process is unpredictable, and will largely depend on the mobilization of vapers and e-cig companies (who, against most predictions, defeated the medicines regulation in the EU Parliament on Oct 8, 2013).
Looking at the regulation of snus (a relatively safe tobacco product, prohibited in most European countries), there are reasons to be pessimistic. On the other hand, even if e-cigs are tightly regulated, it will be impossible to ban all unregulated products. This phenomenon is just too large, and you cannot stop a tsunami just by waving a piece of paper. Unregulated products will be sold on the black market, which will be worse than the current situation (see what happens with illicit drugs).
Nevertheless, 2014 will see a continued rise in the adoption of e-cigs (we are still in the early adopters / early majority stages of the innovation curve), but sales will soon reach a ceiling, because current e-cigs do not deliver nicotine quickly enough. To ensure that most smokers switch to e-cigs, products will need to improve, in particular by using freebase nicotine, or protonated nicotine (that is, by controlling the pH of the vapor).
I predict that the e-cig manufacturers who best control the speed of nicotine delivery to the brain will dominate the e-cig market (although increasing the speed of nicotine delivery will be controversial, because it will make e-cigs more addictive). The success of e-cigs will force us to reconsider the place of nicotine in the law and in society, to make room for new nicotine product (including addictive ones). This is one of the most important public health debates in recent decades.
Dr Etter is currently conducting two surveys into ecig use if you have a minute, please take the surveys here and here.
- See more at: http://www.ecigarettedirect.co.uk/a...garette-predictions.html#sthash.VZ6igqqR.dpuf
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
be forewarned the survey are looooooooooooooog
this comes from:
http://www.ecigarettedirect.co.uk/ashtray-blog/2013/12/2014-electronic-cigarette-predictions.html
The highlights are my own, I do think it is a very important point I have tried to make but never with Dr Etter eloquence.
________________________________________________________________________________
2014 will be a crucial year, with new regulations applying to e-cigs in the US, the EU and elsewhere. The impact of these legislations cannot be overestimated (700000 persons die each year in the EU from smoking-related diseases, and 430000 in the US).
The outcome of the legislative process is unpredictable, and will largely depend on the mobilization of vapers and e-cig companies (who, against most predictions, defeated the medicines regulation in the EU Parliament on Oct 8, 2013).
Looking at the regulation of snus (a relatively safe tobacco product, prohibited in most European countries), there are reasons to be pessimistic. On the other hand, even if e-cigs are tightly regulated, it will be impossible to ban all unregulated products. This phenomenon is just too large, and you cannot stop a tsunami just by waving a piece of paper. Unregulated products will be sold on the black market, which will be worse than the current situation (see what happens with illicit drugs).
Nevertheless, 2014 will see a continued rise in the adoption of e-cigs (we are still in the early adopters / early majority stages of the innovation curve), but sales will soon reach a ceiling, because current e-cigs do not deliver nicotine quickly enough. To ensure that most smokers switch to e-cigs, products will need to improve, in particular by using freebase nicotine, or protonated nicotine (that is, by controlling the pH of the vapor).
I predict that the e-cig manufacturers who best control the speed of nicotine delivery to the brain will dominate the e-cig market (although increasing the speed of nicotine delivery will be controversial, because it will make e-cigs more addictive). The success of e-cigs will force us to reconsider the place of nicotine in the law and in society, to make room for new nicotine product (including addictive ones). This is one of the most important public health debates in recent decades.
Dr Etter is currently conducting two surveys into ecig use if you have a minute, please take the surveys here and here.
- See more at: http://www.ecigarettedirect.co.uk/a...garette-predictions.html#sthash.VZ6igqqR.dpuf
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
be forewarned the survey are looooooooooooooog
Until I see youtube videos posted by "conscientious objectors" paying the consequences of being obstinate vapists in the face of policy; we're all just a bunch of talkers anyway. We all just want to join some organization so we can pat ourselves on the back for doing are part. Numbers, in terms of the apathetic, benefit no cause.
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CASAA needs active members, but it also needs NUMBERS of members, because our enemies get some of their credibility from their size. So if you have the bandwidth to do more, join and fight. Otherwise, join anyway. 'Fighting' might mean 1 tweet a month, or taking a day off to go talk to legislators. Or letters to the editor of your local paper. I've only sent two, in the last 2 years, but 1 of the 2 got published. Also, volunteer to stuff envelopes legislators who are on our side. Or donate (even $10!!) and let them know WHY. We want them to gossip about it.
But even if you aren't sure you will EVER write a letter or make a phone call or do a tweet, JOIN CASAA ANYWAY. It's free, and it DOES give the CASAA scientists and board members a place at the table with the Powers that Be. Numbers are a small benefit compared to activity, but they DO benefit our cause, because Casaa tracks the numbers so that more-active people can quote them.
CASAA - The Consumer Advocates for Smoke-free Alternatives Association
Every City Council in the country can simply vote to ban e-cigarettes - be it in public or elsewhere; they can vote in an ordinance, again 'legal or not" and the people who could not care less will simply follow along. If you don't use - you don't care. It's no different that gun laws; if it doesn't apply - they don't care. Unless a group has the funds to fight the political machine - we lose. Politicians do not need FACT - they simply need to be make their case about the same group they use to justify every other idiotic decision they make .... "THE CHILLUN'"
You don't hear them being out in force to gather FACTUAL INFORMATION. They simply propose what makes them look "good" and they know if they appear to care about "the chillun'" - they will appear to be "good guys". The media reports it - and fools swallow it - time and time again.
Laws or nor laws. FDA or WPA - someone will find a way to regulate and tax knowing it will take money and time to drag the matter through the courts. They will get what they want because opposition does not have access to TAXPAYER FUNDS to fight those who use that very money to ram through ridiculous laws, ordinances and executive orders from mayors, governors and presidents.
There is BIG MONEY in these tools we use and all levels of government will find a way to get a cut of the action.
Senile Old Man Don
You don't hear them being out in force to gather FACTUAL INFORMATION. They simply propose what makes them look "good" and they know if they appear to care about "the chillun'" - they will appear to be "good guys". The media reports it - and fools swallow it - time and time again.
Laws or nor laws. FDA or WPA - someone will find a way to regulate and tax knowing it will take money and time to drag the matter through the courts. They will get what they want because opposition does not have access to TAXPAYER FUNDS to fight those who use that very money to ram through ridiculous laws, ordinances and executive orders from mayors, governors and presidents.
There is BIG MONEY in these tools we use and all levels of government will find a way to get a cut of the action.
Senile Old Man Don
They don't work for free. Big tobacco, the FDA and all other special interest groups have TAXPAYER FUNDS available in virtually unlimited amounts and they will spend all they need to in order to continue their campaign of "PEOPLE CONTROL".
Senile Old Man Don
What give me hope for the future is the independent vendors like RTS Vapes supporting the legal fight in favor of vaping. But even more encouraging is the number of posts in "New Members" section, saying "I'm trying vaping, it's working, I stopped smoking" every day. Given that this is likely a very small percentage of people first trying vaping, our numbers are growing quickly.
Our government and politicians in particular will bend to any group large enough to effect their elections, we need to keep the pressure on them, and encouraging the newbies to do the same. If the ANTZ had their way, smoking cigarettes, cigars, and even smokless tobacco would be totally banned....not going to happen, no more than bringing back prohibition banning alcohol.
I can envision a future where vaping will outpace smoking by far, with the restrictions being considered and the current bans falling by the wayside. We humans like our "mind altering" substances like caffeine, nicotine, alcohol among others, way too much for all of known history.
Our government and politicians in particular will bend to any group large enough to effect their elections, we need to keep the pressure on them, and encouraging the newbies to do the same. If the ANTZ had their way, smoking cigarettes, cigars, and even smokless tobacco would be totally banned....not going to happen, no more than bringing back prohibition banning alcohol.
I can envision a future where vaping will outpace smoking by far, with the restrictions being considered and the current bans falling by the wayside. We humans like our "mind altering" substances like caffeine, nicotine, alcohol among others, way too much for all of known history.
OK. Since ya put it like that ............. I'll toss out my opinion and follow blindly. Now that I know they will never attack us and should they do so we will win in the end and we are guaranteed to retain the right to vape .... I feel better. I'll take that decree to "shut up" and go silently sans-opinion.
Senile Old Man Don
I am not that concerned about the FDA or E-Cigs going away. Cigarettes are known to be hazardous to one's health so why are they still allowed? The answer is easy..............they are tremendous cash generators. The ones I fear are the Federal, State, and Local taxing authorities. Since nicotine is already considered a tobacco product (right or wrong) it will be easy to add it to the exorbitant taxes that cigarettes now enjoy. My predictions for the future is that Nicotine will be available from all the sources that it is now. The difference being that a 100ml bottle will cost $300 - $400.00 for the sole purpose of "Protecting our Children".
Follow the money.
Follow the money.
ut1205 .............I agree without reservation. They use "the chillun" for everything! Obama and guns ..... it's always "the chillun"! He and his type can re-kill "the chillun" time and time again and fools buy the hype.
Pass an ordinance. Pass a law. They know it will take years to undo them all.
Senile Old Man Don
Pass an ordinance. Pass a law. They know it will take years to undo them all.
Senile Old Man Don
vaping is going to cost the same as smoking ... or more ... even the nic base for DIY will be taxed to the max.
Is there a fund to post bail? LOL! Just curious. Thanks for the info. Either way, I hope I can clear up my current legal matters because when push comes to shove I've been itching for some civil disobedience. I do plan on making a donation to research as soon as I get back a little financial momentum lost to the holidays. If I signed up to CASAA would I get a shield under my avatar or is that optional?
You missed the irony. In my experience the people most likely to call out "fascist" are also the quickest to tell me to shut up. You don't need to address yourself as senile. We'll figure it out.
CASAA is not the same as ECF, though it was founded by ECF members and they are still very active here. The shield is for making an annual contribution to ECF, I think I put in like $25. I also contribute to CASAA but that does not show up ANYWHERE. So far that money goes mostly to support the high-bandwidth website and some goes to research.
Since they are not the same, you have to learn to manipulate your signature etc to get any CASAA stuff onto your ECF posts. Same if you want Bugs Bunny or the moon.
Joining CASAA consists of signing up on the web site and giving an email address and letting them know which state or states you want to be active in. Default is your home state, but Ol' Codgers with RV's and grandchildren all over the country sometimes sign up for more states.
There is very little email from CASAA -- you get a Call to Action every once in awhile if something is going on in your state that needs attention. For big states, this means I got maybe 4 emails in the last few months, only half of which were relevant to me, since I'm not going to get involved with things in L.A. If you're in a small state, things will be relevant.
Typically City Councils are offended by phone calls and email from out-of-state, they feel you are trying to interfere in the lives of their local constitutents. I only respond to states or cities I sometimes travel to and/or shop in, and I say so in my letters so they know I'm not randomly overreaching.
Helping out with a local Call to Action is important if you can do ANYTHING. We have sometimes lost and heard "My office didn't get a single phone call on this" from some council members. We have sometimes won and heard "We got XXXX phone calls/letters on this."
We have sometimes lost no matter what we do, but even then, we've changed the vote from 5-0 against us to 3-2 against us, which means we are educating people, and means our supporters are on record where we can find them to support THEM next election.
So don't wait until you have money, all you need is an email addy.
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