Why Vapers are getting a BAD NAME.

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aceswired

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If you can't show any evidence it isn't save, then when you claim it isn't safe, I'm likely to point out that you are lying.

What? Who claimed that it isn't safe? Do you honestly not comprehend the difference between "It is not safe" and "We don't know if it's safe?"


And as I pointed out before, nothing is 100% safe. I'd bet big money that you've been in an automobile in the last week, but auto accidents happen all the time.

Ahh, the classic "if you take any risk in life, every risk is justified."

Yes, well stated. A comet could smash into my roof as I type this, so there's no reason not to take up base jumping without any training.

You're holding vaping to a higher standard than everything else in the world.
BS. Everything we do in life is a balance of risk and reward. Driving to the store to get groceries carries the reward of having food in my pantry. The risk of an accident is real, but small. I judge the reward to outweigh the risk.

vaping in the delivery room carries ZERO reward. The only reward it offers is that some selfish vaper doesn't have to wait an hour, or leave the room for a minute, to get a fix. No matter what you assess the risk to be (it's not zero, no matter how much some would stomp their feet and wring their hands and insist that they want it to be, so it must be), the reward is so paltry and self absorbed that there's no justification in the world for it.
 

Baldr

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vaping in the delivery room carries ZERO reward.

So far, you've shown exactly zero evidence of risk. You can't show that it harms me, a guy who has vaped heavily for years. I know that I'm healthier now than when i was smoking.

You're pretending that people are killing babies - but you can't show any actual evidence.

If you're going to scream about how it isn't safe, then show your evidence. Surely, if it's as bad as you are pretending, you can name a few people where it's caused significant harm. So, here's your shot. Name them.
 

Jman8

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Jman, you might consider finishing reading the paragraph you quoted. The OP calls it safe in the very next sentence.

How bout we just quote that quote for accuracy?

I openly vaped in the delivery room while my wife was giving birth. The docs and nurses thought it was awesome and asked for all kinds of information in order to pass it on to others. They were genuinely excited to see a safe alternative.

You are reading it as (entirely) safe, when it is, as I read it relatively safe, given the alternative. And you are emphasizing the 'safe' part above the 'doctors and nurses thought it was awesome.'

If we went with OP of this thread, imagine if that doctor had similar impression of awesomeness? Instead, we are dealing with what a fellow vaper thought about a person vaping in a waiting room. Now, in this thread, we have a person who vaped in a delivery room with notes of medical staff (plural) noting it as awesome. Them being interested in what this is. Wanting more info on it. Wanting to pass that onto others because of the alternative.

But if this same vaper went with predetermined notion of "can't vape in a delivery room" then all those medical people and all their patients would be denied of the awesomeness that these trained medical personnel declared.

In this case, vaping in the delivery room carried SUBSTANTIAL REWARD. Anyone that concludes otherwise, is engaging in deceptive tactics.
 

aceswired

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So far, you've shown exactly zero evidence of risk.
Sigh. This is fast becoming an exercise in tail chasing. Let me try to be as clear as I can: I'm not saying vaping is unsafe. I'm saying WE. DON'T. KNOW.

There is zero evidence available on the long-term effects of inhaling PG, VG, and the almost limitless array of chemicals that come in flavorings, to say nothing of the potential for metals to be vaporizing in trace amounts. You kick and stomp and demand that I post evidence. That's my whole bleepin' point. There is none. So, by definition, the long-term risk factors are UNKNOWN.



You're pretending that people are killing babies - but you can't show any actual evidence.

Sigh. By all means. Go find a hospital nursery and blow clouds in the faces of the preemies. After all, if I can't PROVE that it's unsafe, that means there's no risk, right? We all know that anything whose risk factors are unknown is really completely safe unless proven otherwise.

I mean if we're going to distort (or, in your case, ignore) what the other is actually saying, let's just go full speed.

If you're going to scream about how it isn't safe, then show your evidence.
*bangs head into desk*
 

aceswired

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You are reading it as (entirely) safe, when it is, as I read it relatively safe, given the alternative.
Let's inspect that statement from two angles.

#1 - the OP did not qualify "safe," so neither should we. Safe means safe. He didn't say safer, or somewhat safe. He said "safe." We don't need to make this complicated when it's, in fact, simple.

#2 - "Given the alternative"? What is the alternative, lighting up a stogie in the delivery room? No. The alternative is to not bleeping vape in the hospital at all. This isn't rocket science. Let's not pretend that the poster was faced with the decision of whether to vape in the delivery room or to light up in the delivery room. His choice is to do it, or not to do it at all. That's the choice being made. Now tell me the choice he made was "safer"



And you are emphasizing the 'safe' part above the 'doctors and nurses thought it was awesome.'

Perhaps because I'm not convinced I believe that. More likely, one or two were interested and the rest were being polite. My guess is that the OP saw and heard what he wanted to see and hear. But it's beside the point. The doctor could have made out with the OP and stopped to order a mod between contractions, and it doesn't make a bit of difference to the point at hand.

In this case, vaping in the delivery room carried SUBSTANTIAL REWARD. Anyone that concludes otherwise, is engaging in deceptive tactics.
This actually made me laugh out loud.
 

LDS714

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Sigh. This is fast becoming an exercise in tail chasing. Let me try to be as clear as I can: I'm not saying vaping is unsafe. I'm saying WE. DON'T. KNOW.

There is zero evidence available on the long-term effects of inhaling PG, VG, and the almost limitless array of chemicals that come in flavorings, to say nothing of the potential for metals to be vaporizing in trace amounts. You kick and stomp and demand that I post evidence. That's my whole bleepin' point. There is none. So, by definition, the long-term risk factors are UNKNOWN

Incorrect.

Every time you walked into a hospital prior to the introduction of micro-pore filters, you were inhaling PG.

Every time you walk into an establishment that cooks, you are inhaling those exact same flavorings as well as the components of vegetable glycerin.

The amount of nicotine in exhaled vapor has been studied and found to be trivial at worst, borderline undetectable at best.

WE. JUST. DON'T. KNOW. is the rallying cry of the control freaks. They got you HOOK. LINE. AND. SINKER.
 

Berylanna

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Let's inspect that statement from two angles.

#1 - the OP did not qualify "safe," so neither should we. Safe means safe. He didn't say safer, or somewhat safe. He said "safe." We don't need to make this complicated when it's, in fact, simple.

#2 - "Given the alternative"? What is the alternative, lighting up a stogie in the delivery room? No. The alternative is to not bleeping vape in the hospital at all. This isn't rocket science. Let's not pretend that the poster was faced with the decision of whether to vape in the delivery room or to light up in the delivery room. His choice is to do it, or not to do it at all. That's the choice being made. Now tell me the choice he made was "safer"





Perhaps because I'm not convinced I believe that. More likely, one or two were interested and the rest were being polite. My guess is that the OP saw and heard what he wanted to see and hear. But it's beside the point. The doctor could have made out with the OP and stopped to order a mod between contractions, and it doesn't make a bit of difference to the point at hand.


This actually made me laugh out loud.

Incorrect. SECOND-HAND vaping is already proven to be the same as long-long-tested breathing normal air anywhere food is allowed. I cannot speak to whether or not food would be allowed in the delivery room, I've been in birthing rooms where everyone but the mother can have a hot meal, and delivery rooms where no such thing would be allowed. We don't know which this was.

FIRST-hand vaping, though known to be much safer than smoking, has not been studied for extremely long-term effects, but that's a different story.

EVERYTHING IN ECIGS IS LONG-KNOWN TO BE IN FOOD VAPOR. Decades and decades. So, quite possibly NOT safe to inhale first-hand all day every day for decades but second-hand, it's like being in a room where hot food is being prepared or eaten.
 

zoiDman

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Incorrect.

Every time you walked into a hospital prior to the introduction of micro-pore filters, you were inhaling PG.

Every time you walk into an establishment that cooks, you are inhaling those exact same flavorings as well as the components of vegetable glycerin.

The amount of nicotine in exhaled vapor has been studied and found to be trivial at worst, borderline undetectable at best.

WE. JUST. DON'T. KNOW. is the rallying cry of the control freaks. They got you HOOK. LINE. AND. SINKER.

Interesting.

So you are saying that a Person receives the Same Exposure Levels of PG, VG, Flavorings, Colorants and Sweeteners every time they walk into a Hospital or Restaurant as they do when they use an e-Cigarette?

I didn't know that.
 

zoiDman

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...

EVERYTHING IN ECIGS IS LONG-KNOWN TO BE IN FOOD VAPOR. Decades and decades. So, quite possibly NOT safe to inhale first-hand all day every day for decades but second-hand, it's like being in a room where hot food is being prepared or eaten.

Yeah... I think that Dosage and Frequency is sometimes Left Out of these Comparisons.
 

Berylanna

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Yeah... I think that Dosage and Frequency is sometimes Left Out of these Comparisons.

I've still had massive improvements in my breathing since dropping 21 cigs/day in favor of vaping. (I still can't seem to drop the first one in the morning, the after-work one, or the after-dinner one.)

In fact, the same daughter that started me on this journey by suggesting I "give up tar" is now complaining that she can't find me in crowds or stores anymore because all her life, she could just follow the sound of coughing and that's where I'd be. Doesn't work anymore.
 

Jman8

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Let's inspect that statement from two angles.

#1 - the OP did not qualify "safe," so neither should we. Safe means safe. He didn't say safer, or somewhat safe. He said "safe." We don't need to make this complicated when it's, in fact, simple.

OP did say "safe alternative." You are emphasizing the safe part, and implying 100% safety.

If I brought a squirt gun into a hospital, and started shooting it (water) at people, I think some people could be happy if this was fairly new technology and declare it a 'safe alternative' to the kind of guns that shoot bullets. But you'd be saying it is incomprehensible that anyone considers shooting water at people as entirely 100% safe.

IMO, that's a very good and fair analogy. If I told you I was in a delivery room, while my wife was giving birth and I fired my gun twice, I'm thinking everyone would think it was crazy, dangerous stupid. But if I then went onto say, it was a squirt gun, I'm thinking everyone would think it funny, safe, and nothing to be even a little bit concerned about.

You'd come along and correct anyone that dared to call firing a squirt gun (in a hospital! during a delivery!) safe.

#2 - "Given the alternative"? What is the alternative, lighting up a stogie in the delivery room?

In this case, yes, but more like lighting up a stogie ANYWHERE.

No. The alternative is to not bleeping vape in the hospital at all.

That's not a bleeding alternative. That may be an option, but that would've denied a whole bunch of a trained medical personnel an opportunity to see vaping in action.

This isn't rocket science. Let's not pretend that the poster was faced with the decision of whether to vape in the delivery room or to light up in the delivery room. His choice is to do it, or not to do it at all. That's the choice being made. Now tell me the choice he made was "safer"

Why are we back to "safer" when you took that off the table in comparison to the actual alternative?

The reason this is treated like "rocket science" is because some vapers are (self)convinced that vaping poses a rather serious health danger to people around them. So even if doctors in a real medical situation conclude otherwise, these vapers are convinced that fellow vapers who do use their devices, and vape indoors are creating problems for everyone (all vapers, and non-vapers) by choosing to vape. That's half the picture and one that isn't too hard to understand but makes for interesting discussion when you realize a) no one is yet to find significant harm in short term from vaping and b) because of unknown long term effects, there are people who wish to say that (and that alone) ought to be grounds for not doing it in the short term. As in, let's wait 30 more years for evidence to come pouring in, and then we can go back to vaping based on that evidence.

The part that makes it truly like rocket science is when you realize what anti-indoor vapers are purporting, could easily be applied to all places they currently deem 'okay' or 'safe' for use, i.e. outdoors, own residence, own vehicle, etc. Cause arguably, it would be risky in all those places as well. Especially if 'third hand vapor' is a reality. And since we don't have the long term information on third hand vapor, which may not be available for another 25 or so years, then really, there is no place that is 100% safe for all people, from eCig vapor.

Therefore, some vapers have managed to construct an argument, that when taken to it's logical extreme, means there is no place to vape that is safe, and therefore it is never okay to vape anywhere.

Unless, you engage in a little rocket scientific debate and weed out philosophies of harm, risk, and safety to hopefully obtain what could be basis for reasonable discussion going forward.
 

chellemmm

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The point is, the AVERAGE non-vaper knows NOTHING about the safeness of vapor. The AVERAGE person wants NOTHING that is even PERCEIVED to be possibly harmful near their kids. WHY even tempt fate? Educate others later, NOT in the hospital or doctor's waiting room. If you want to stealth vape, fine. Just do a good job of it.

Walmart vapers....pffft. If you wanna vape in Walmart, just don't show it off. The vape will dissipate a LOT faster than the stench of the unwashed.

Common sense goes a LONG way...
 

Berylanna

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Interesting.

So you are saying that a Person receives the Same Exposure Levels of PG, VG, Flavorings, Colorants and Sweeteners every time they walk into a Hospital or Restaurant as they do when they use an e-Cigarette?

I didn't know that.

He said EXHALED. That doesn't mean using an ecig, it means being near someone using one. Huge, huge, difference, per peer-reviewed studies (and even per the actual NUMBERS of bad things found by ANTZ!)
 

Jman8

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WHY even tempt fate?

Because of post like #1094 of this thread. IMO, that makes the temptation very worthwhile to consider.

I believe I can find at least three others like that in this thread. Places where if we were on another thread discussing "indoor vaping" and someone asked, "would this place be okay?" that would result in overwhelming response of "hell no." And yet, all those people would be on wrong side of reality when considering a post such as #1094.

Which is precisely why I would and do tempt fate.

ETA: And oh yeah, I'm still batting 1.000 in my tempting of fate while vaping indoors. That'd be another reason for why I do tempt fate on vaping indoors. The next, or first, time I make an out while vaping indoors, and my average goes down to. .9+, I'll be sure to update my thinking / words on why it isn't always good to tempt fate. 90%+ of the time it is good, but not 100%. Currently, I'm at 100% however.
 
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zoiDman

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He said EXHALED. That doesn't mean using an ecig, it means being near someone using one. Huge, huge, difference, per peer-reviewed studies (and even per the actual NUMBERS of bad things found by ANTZ!)

Gotcha...

But here is a Question. How Many Non-Vapers do you think have Read those Peer-Reviewed Studies? Or even know what is in e-Cigarette Vaper?

The Title of this Thread "Why Vapers are getting a BAD NAME".

So it gets back to, can a Vaper Using an e-Cigarette around Non-Vapers give Vaper's a Bad Name? Especially when those Non-Vapers May (or Most Likely) be Uneducated about e-Cigarette Vapor?

Many Here on the ECF have spent the Time and Effort to Research Many Aspects of e-Cigarette Use. And have weeded out Much of the "Junk Science" that has been Propagated over the Years.

Can the Same be Said about the General Public?
 

Berylanna

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Gotcha...

But here is a Question. How Many Non-Vapers do you think have Read those Peer-Reviewed Studies? Or even know what is in e-Cigarette Vaper?

The Title of this Thread "Why Vapers are getting a BAD NAME".

So it gets back to, can a Vaper Using an e-Cigarette around Non-Vapers give Vaper's a Bad Name? Especially when those Non-Vapers May (or Most Likely) be Uneducated about e-Cigarette Vapor?

Many Here on the ECF have spent the Time and Effort to Research Many Aspects of e-Cigarette Use. And have weeded out Much of the "Junk Science" that has been Propagated over the Years.

Can the Same be Said about the General Public?

I see your point, but there's a huge difference between saying WE dont' know vs. THEY don't know. I do take into account what THEY don't know, all the time. But the WE part drives me nutso. How can we educate if we don't know? We'll do the ANTZs' job for them.
 

Berylanna

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Actually, wrt MOST of the public, I'd guess my rabid anti-smoking daughter, who is also mildly anti-vaping (though, again, she's the one that said give up tar!) is pretty representative of most.

1. Even if outdoor 2nd-hand smoke is not harmful per science, she still HATES walking through a cloud of it. She is hyper-sensitive and also doesn't tolerate loud noises, flashing lights, bitter flavors, and a whole lot of other things, so I think she has better reason than most, but generally, stinky's STINK and people don't like clouds of stink.

2. If you make a BIG CLOUD of vapor, some folks will imagine the stink, some will dislike the actual scent of your vape, many more will avoid it by reflex, and you've offended a lot of people.



I say, be careful where you stealth vape (not in pediatric waiting rooms where parents of kids with allergies do NOT have the choice to NOT take their kids, unlike restaurants which they can avoid)

But be 1000 times more careful where you blow clouds.

I blow clouds at home, far away from people outdoors, and when passing smokers on the street. Sometimes in a clump of smokers outside a venue.

The rest of the time, having learned to stealth-vape, what I do is not quite stealth vape, but since I use 70/30 pg/vg (for flavor) it's easier for me to put out a teeny cloud even when not explicitly stealth-vaping.

If I'm going to vape where I could be arrested, like in an airport, THEN I really stealth-vape. Small inhales, hold awhile, exhale into a steaming hot cup of coffee. Or something.

So far it is VERY rare that anybody who is not a vaper figures out what I'm doing, and much more rare that anybody objects.

Anyway, YMMV (especially by location!) but the above is my :2c: regarding how to educate without making enemies.
 

zoiDman

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I see your point, but there's a huge difference between saying WE dont' know vs. THEY don't know. I do take into account what THEY don't know, all the time. But the WE part drives me nutso. How can we educate if we don't know? We'll do the ANTZs' job for them.

I think what happens sometimes is we Forget that the people you talk to here on the ECF are Very Different from the Average Non-Vaping Person you meet in Public. And that their Level of Expertise with regards to e-Cigarette is Usually Less than what a ECF Newbie with 10 Posts has.

Where I Clash with Many Members is I don't think that the Best Way to Educate the Uninformed Public is thru the Vape Everywhere Attitude.

Yes, Vaping inside Wal-Mart may Educate 1 or 2 People. But it Pisses Off Many More. And that Gives ALL Vapers a Bad Name
A Numbers Game is Not a Game we Want to be Involved in. Educate 1, Piss Off 3. Because we are Out Numbered 100 to 1 to start.

I think the Education and the Acceptance will come thru the Media.

Like it or Not, Blu has probably done More for e-Cigarettes (after being bought by Lorilard) with their TV add campaign then Everything Else Combined.

I've said for a Long Time that what we Needed was a Good PR Firm. I had Hoped that some of the e-Liquid Trade Organizations would have Done More of this. But their Agenda leans more to Keeping their Members in Business with the coming e-Liquid Regulations. Than it does with Education the General Public.
 

LDS714

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Gotcha...

But here is a Question. How Many Non-Vapers do you think have Read those Peer-Reviewed Studies? Or even know what is in e-Cigarette Vaper?

The Title of this Thread "Why Vapers are getting a BAD NAME".
Why? Farcical "news" they hear. Stories of poisoned babies and antifreeze.
 
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