Why Vapers are getting a BAD NAME.

[Jman8]

with Regards to vaping in Public, the In Your Face Attitude is Not Going to work when you Consider who is Pushing Bans, the Amount of Public Awareness and Who Is Implementing them.

It doesn't need to work with "in your face" in some parts because at this time, some of us, aren't up against the ban first, ask questions later. But for those vapers already in locations that have invoked a ban, I say in your face will work. And by this, I don't mean blow vapor in people's faces, but do mean to practice quite, peace civil disobedience and vape where it is not allowed.

I hear you saying it will lead to bans, but you have nothing to back this up other than the appeal to emotion or false authority.

I think every vaper concerned with politics of vaping, and for sure just about all members of CASAA know that it is not rude vapers that lead to usage bans. Apparently you wish to argue otherwise, but you thus far have not produced a single case where this is accurate.

I do give you some credit in this in that if vaping were to be banned in some outdoor place, like say a park, then I think you'd be willing to go the route of 'rude' vaper and/or practice civil disobedience to make essentially the same point that the indoor vaper is making. Perhaps I'm mistaken on this and you would just roll over on the outdoor bans as well.

But playing the game you are playing, and spinning the rationale you are spinning, I could use same tactics to argue that everywhere vaping occurs (includes own property) it is a rude activity for the vaper to be engaged in. Would take a little deception and appeal to emotion for me to pull that off, but if we are saying that vaping in a hospital, for instance, is always rude regardless of the situation, then yeah, I could spin the argument to show how vaping in your own car is rude/disrespectful, and is therefore what is giving vapers a bad name, and leading to all these bans we are now seeing.

 

[Ohms Lawbreaker]

You do not need to do anything or drink any koolaid to join CASAA....

Then by that logic I am already a member.

 

[sonicdsl]

Which studies? I challenge your belief.

Do you mean this one?


Probably not...

Ya beat me to it!

I'll just leave this here anyway (direct link to the study PDF):
http://publichealth.drexel.edu/~/media/files/publichealth/ms08.pdf

 

[Bramble]

[...]

Nicotine is in potatoes, tomatoes, eggplant, and chili peppers. 10 hours of 2nd-hand vape might, worst-case, give the same nicotine as eatging 2 oz of French fries. You'd get a LOT more stimulant into your blood hanging out where they are grinding and brewing coffee.

[...]

For all intents and purposes I could get a good dose of nicotine by eating a large portion of some of my favorite Indian curries (eggplants, cauliflower, potatoes, and tomatoes, no wonder I feel so great after having lunch at the Bombay Grill ).

But the part above bolded - I don't think this is true. Do you have any links? I tried to find that info before but could not find anything.

 

[Jman8]

But the part above bolded - I don't think this is true. Do you have any links? I tried to find that info before but could not find anything.

Coffee aroma, by itself, may be stimulant enough

Was 2nd link I found on google search of: grinding coffee, stimulant

Update: just do google search on: coffee aroma, stimulant - for more hits.

 

[Berylanna]

For all intents and purposes I could get a good dose of nicotine by eating a large portion of some of my favorite Indian curries (eggplants, cauliflower, potatoes, and tomatoes, no wonder I feel so great after having lunch at the Bombay Grill ).

But the part above bolded - I don't think this is true. Do you have any links? I tried to find that info before but could not find anything.

Well, coffee has caffeine, and in an espresso bar they are steaming it at above-boiling temperatures at the rate of several per minute, and grinding coffee, and it is everywhere in the air. Even if steaming didn't extract it, no WAY grinding doesn't put it into the air.

You can't even smell most vape.

So I would be incredibly shocked if SECOND-hand vape can give you nic compared to the caffeine in a coffee house, especially considering they have already done studies showing SHV doesn't really give any nic.

In other words, I don't see how a very very active coffee shop could give you LESS stimulant than SHV, given that SHV is pretty much zero.

But no, I don't have links. College chemistry and physics and a minor in math but no links. And I think we need them, and could generate them, if the BT and BP folks would give us even 5% of what they give the ANTZ.

So, I have strong reason to believe it is true and will say it here so that people can have a sense of perspective, but would hedge my wording on such a claim if I made it in a debate or legislative setting.

 

[Jay-dub]

I don't think MsxShades is Alone in Not Knowing about what Levels of Carcinogens, Heavy Metals and Toxins are Present in SHV. And I don't think it is He/She's Fault either.

I think we as a Vaping Community have done a Terrible Job of Countering the Study Data that groups like the CDC, FDA, Lung Association, etc. are used Against Us.

It is Not a Lie to say that SHV contains Carcinogens, Heavy Metals and Toxins. And it has been Ingrain in Peoples Minds since the First FDA Report came out by Continually stating it.

But what Hasn't be Stated, and what We/OME's/Retailers did a Very Poor Job of Counter-Punching was the Level of these Carcinogens, Heavy Metals and Toxins.

Kind of true. If you look at the acceptable levels of metals and toxins in USP Glycerin you have to admit they're there. Unless, a manufacturer is doing above the minimum refinement necessary. LOL! I made myself laugh...MSDS. As far as carcinogens... it's feasible. There's an allowance of 5PPMs of heavy metals. Pretty sure vaporizing a heavy metal, even in PPMs, produces carcinogens. But, probably less than in the air I'm breathing right now. Could be wrong... just thinking out loud.

 

[Bramble]

Coffee aroma, by itself, may be stimulant enough

Was 2nd link I found on google search of: grinding coffee, stimulant

Update: just do google search on: coffee aroma, stimulant - for more hits.

This isn't like doing some experiment with human people entering a coffee shop after a baseline assessment for caffeine, spending some hours in the place, and then assessing their blood levels afterwards.

All of this second-hand stuff (whether it's coffee or vapor) should be easy enough to establish with a large enough and well enough controlled experiment that a 10 grader could even do as a science fair project.

I'm not arguing with anyone just wondering why this whole second-hand vapor nicotine exposure thing hasn't been put to rest by now. It would seem to be insanely easy to prove or disprove.

 

[Nermal]

I have NEVER EVER seen someone else vaping here unless it was in a vape shop or it was someone I lent an ecig to.
I'm sorry but the massive amounts of vapers fogging up restaurants and movie theaters isn't happening here.
Maybe eventually but it's not happening now.

Not happening in NW New Mexico, either. With a population of 40,000 we now have four dedicated vape shops, and it just isn't happening here. Maybe human nature is completely different elsewhere. . . .

 

[Ohms Lawbreaker]

Kind of true. If you look at the acceptable levels of metals and toxins in USP Glycerin you have to admit they're there. Unless, a manufacturer is doing above the minimum refinement necessary. LOL! I made myself laugh...MSDS. As far as carcinogens... it's feasible. There's an allowance of 5PPMs of heavy metals. Pretty sure vaporizing a heavy metal, even in PPMs, produces carcinogens. But, probably less than in the air I'm breathing right now. Could be wrong... just thinking out loud.

If I understand some of this: Some things may be carcinogens in and of themselves, and some things, when combusted or brought to a certain temperature, may produce new compounds or substances that are carcinogenic. No?

 

[Jay-dub]

If I understand some of this: Some things may be carcinogens in and of themselves, and some things, when combusted or brought to a certain temperature, may produce new compounds or substances that are carcinogenic. No?

Looks like it.
I was intentionally using the phrase "vaporizing a heavy metal" as opposed to "the combustion of heavy metals". I'd look up more on the MSDS sheets of these "Heavy Metals" but I haven't found any specific ones listed as being part of the 5PPM's yet.

 

[Berylanna]

This isn't like doing some experiment with human people entering a coffee shop after a baseline assessment for caffeine, spending some hours in the place, and then assessing their blood levels afterwards.

All of this second-hand stuff (whether it's coffee or vapor) should be easy enough to establish with a large enough and well enough controlled experiment that a 10 grader could even do as a science fair project.

I'm not arguing with anyone just wondering why this whole second-hand vapor nicotine exposure thing hasn't been put to rest by now. It would seem to be insanely easy to prove or disprove.

Because the ANTZ were given a sarcophagus by the Goa'uld as part of their alliance agreement.

 

[Jay-dub]

Does anyone have an idea of the evaporation rate of nicotine? Just curious, since I've blown my vapes out through a tube covered by a folded paper towel over a period of nearly three months. I gave up after that because I saw no observable change to the paper towel. Except for the evidence that I was exhaling a liquid mist. But the moisture would evaporate like water and leave no trace in a matter of minutes. I would have thought that a little nicotine would have stayed in the paper towel's fibers. Then, it would have darkened. None of which happened. So, it must not be exhaled in significant amounts, evaporates too fast to capture using my rudimentary methods, or I'm not a scientist so don't ask me.

 

[zoiDman]

...

I hear you saying it will lead to bans, but you have nothing to back this up other than the appeal to emotion or false authority.

...

Hey, I'm Not saying that your Chances are Less of getting a Raise if you tell your Boss she dresses like a Cheap ..... 2 minutes Before you Ask for a Raise, but Common Sense tells me that it will.


If you think that the "In Your Face" Attitude and the Vape Everywhere Approach is going to work Best with Non-Vaping Policy Makers, there isn't much to say to you.

I just Hope that you Don't Cause more Damage than Good. Because you can Educate a Hundred Smokers. And Even some of the Non-Smokers.

But if you Tick Off One Person who has the Power to Make e-Cigarette Policy or Give that Policy Maker a Justification to Initiate Harsh and Over Zealous Bans, well, then all your Efforts just Went Down the Drain.

 

[Bramble]

Because the ANTZ were given a sarcophagus by the Goa'uld as part of their alliance agreement.

I don't follow your simile about sarcophagi but it cannot be this hard to show by empirical evidence what if any effect in blood nicotine levels it would have on a person to be in a room with people vaping around them.

I will maintain that if the harm that is the basis for all the vaping bans could be shown, heaven knows the ANTZ would have shown it by now -- again with this very simple experiment that... ok I said 10th grader but, honestly the average 7th grader could come up with.

Why don't they get some people willing to sit in a room full of people vaping and demonstrate some tangible harms and then wave that flag high and proud if they are right? After all, the onus of showing the harm is on the ANTZ because they are the ones demanding laws to restrict the freedoms of others.

I believe it hasn't happened because it can't be shown. They wring their hands saying they don't know and bleat about The Children but do not insist on demonstrating anything the way real scientists would WANT to. Something tells me possibly, just maybe... they have already tried to demonstrate this but did not get any results that would help their arguments.

 

[Dominique Hoogduin]

Because the ANTZ were given a sarcophagus by the Goa'uld as part of their alliance agreement.

+ 1 stargate reference.

 

[zoiDman]

...

Why don't they get some people willing to sit in a room full of people vaping and demonstrate some tangible harms and then wave that flag high and proud if they are right? After all, the onus of showing the harm is on the ANTZ because they are the ones demanding laws to restrict the freedoms of others.

...

This isn't Exactly True.

In this Country, If I make something and the Intent is for it to be Put Into/Onto Someone's Body, the Burden of it Being "Safe" is on me. And not on Others to Prove that it is Not "Safe".

 

[zoiDman]

Because the ANTZ were given a sarcophagus by the Goa'uld as part of their alliance agreement.

I heard it was "A Measure of Wheat for a Penny".

 

[Bramble]

This isn't Exactly True.

In this Country, If I make something and the Intent is for it to be Put Into/Onto Someone's Body, the Burden of it Being "Safe" is on me. And not on Others to Prove that it is Not "Safe".

Right, good point... but ANTZ orgs are spending a fortune and a lot of energy to claim that e-cigs are harmful. The fact that they have not shown it to me indicates that they can't.

eCig advocates could address a specific harm that is being claimed, for sure, and we should. But we can't prove something is safe, ever.

I just think someone should put that baby to bed, so to speak. "If I sit in a bar or coffee shop for 2 hours and someone is vaping in the room, does it raise my nicotine levels at all? Will it put toxic chemicals in my bloodstream?" Those are not hard questions to answer. Heck, with the right funding you could even do lung function tests before and after the exposure. Make everyone happy with the truth instead of all this bickering about "safety."

 

[Berylanna]

I don't follow your simile about sarcophagi but it cannot be this hard to show by empirical evidence what if any effect in blood nicotine levels it would have on a person to be in a room with people vaping around them.

I will maintain that if the harm that is the basis for all the vaping bans could be shown, heaven knows the ANTZ would have shown it by now -- again with this very simple experiment that... ok I said 10th grader but, honestly the average 7th grader could come up with.

Why don't they get some people willing to sit in a room full of people vaping and demonstrate some tangible harms and then wave that flag high and proud if they are right? After all, the onus of showing the harm is on the ANTZ because they are the ones demanding laws to restrict the freedoms of others.

I believe it hasn't happened because it can't be shown. They wring their hands saying they don't know and bleat about The Children but do not insist on demonstrating anything the way real scientists would WANT to. Something tells me possibly, just maybe... they have already tried to demonstrate this but did not get any results that would help their arguments.

These tests have already been done and published. No effect on nic blood levels after 10 hours in a sealed chamber with vapers.

It doesn't matter. If someone from a trusted organization says it puts that stuff in the air, then it must be dangerous.

I listened to someone from the American Cancer Society talk for 1/2 hour about the tragedies he's seen as an oncologist, the harm from smoke. He never SAID that vapor would cause that harm. He just talked about it for 1/2 hour then said we should keep people, especially pregnant women, away from 2nd-hand vapor. Two statements back-to-back.

The impact on politicians: they must be related, right?

The "bad guys" in Stargate could resurrect someone nearly an infinite number of times, after they have died. Didn't even have to be immediate as long as it was soon-ish. That's what sarcophagi were used for in that show.

We kill it, they resurrect it. Infinitely.