Why Vapers are getting a BAD NAME.

[DC2]

You call Staving Off a Sales Ban a Crumb? You don't know which side of the Plate Your Ice Cream is on.

When we are fighting to stave off sales bans, it becomes very clear that not enough of us are fighting.
And when we accept a smoking=vaping ban instead, then it becomes very clear that we are acting like good little sheep.

Sheep have never changed anything in this world.
At least as far as I can remember.

 

[DC2]

So these bans, are there means of enforcement? If you break the rules what happens? A citation? A fine? A bench warrant? Wouldn't it look bad for the supporters of these draconian measures to be sending regular, everyday people to jail? Maybe the best PR campaign of all would be showing someone's grandma being locked in the clink for enjoying a quiet vape on a park bench. My Grandma wouldn't be good though. She's a tough ol' bird that inspires little empathy. More like fear of hellfire.

This... all day long...

 

[zoiDman]

When we are fighting to stave off sales bans, it becomes very clear that not enough of us are fighting.
And when we accept a smoking=vaping ban instead, then it becomes very clear that we are acting like good little sheep.

Sheep have never changed anything in this world.
At least as far as I can remember.

Yeah... Were All Sheep DC2.

Go out there and show us how it Should be Done. And then Report back with How Well Things Worked Out being a Wolf.

 

[DC2]

Yeah... Were All Sheep DC2.

Go out there and show us how it Should be Done. And then Report back with How Well Things Worked Out being a Wolf.

What some people see as compromise, I see as them slowly chipping away at us.
And eventually they will take everything.

What we win in compromise today is what they will be taking from us tomorrow.

We've all seen this before when we were smokers.
It amazes me that so many are falling for it all over again.

 

[Anjaffm]

As the father of a youngin', myself. I somewhat understand the OP's problem with vaper-girl.

Got it.

However, it's always gonna be something. There's always going to be SOME thing people want to ..... about. I had the same problem when I smoked Analogs. The people who would get a whiff, and act like they just contracted Cancer immediately with their nonsense coughing and waving. If they take their air-quality so damn seriously, maybe they should be on top of the research?

For instance: Exposed: Cancer-Causing Toxins Found in Air Fresheners | Care2 Healthy Living

Now, was the OP equally offended by the use fog machines at theaters or concerts? Does he complain about the air-quality there? I wonder is he has an issue with the use of Air Fresheners in the Doc's office? No. But no doubt SOMEONE will.

If not by Air Fresheners, then maybe: Is Your Mattress Toxic? Hidden Dangers in Your Sleeping Environment - Red and Honey

It's everywhere. Something "bad for us" is EVERYWHERE. Even in our own beds.

I wonder how many people who faux cough or gag when real tobacco smoke, or even when relatively harmless vapor is around, have fireplaces in their home? How many snuggle with their little ones around a cozy fire breathing in it's essence?

They might want to see this: American Lung Association Cautions Against Wood-burning and Urges Cleaner Alternatives for Winter Heat - American Lung Association

We live in a synthetic world. Most the things we live in, and around, could very well endanger us, and our children. From our chemically-treated furniture and mattress, to the very shirt on our back: Synthetic Dyes: A look at Environmental & Human Risks | Green Cotton

Taking it all into consideration, a little vaporized E-Liquid is peanuts.

excellent! Thank you!

 

[zoiDman]

What some people see as compromise, I see as them slowly chipping away at us.
And eventually they will take everything.

What we win in compromise today is what they will be taking from us tomorrow.

We've all seen this before when we were smokers.
It amazes me that so many are falling for it all over again.

Ya Know, It's Funny.

Both You and Me Want the Same Thing.

We Both would Like to See Nothing Change with regards to e-Cigarettes or e-Liquids. And Everything would be Just Like it was when we Started Using them.

But the Difference between Us is I Realize that this Isn't Going to Happen. It is All Going to Change.

If you think that Getting Something for Vaper's, Not Everything - but Something, by Dealing with Policy Makers is Being a Sheep or Laying Over, you are Entitled to your Opinion.

I Don't see it that way. Because I see getting Something thru Compromise is Better than Getting Nothing thru Non-Compromise.

The Sheep you referee to are the 95% of the People here who make Post After Post about What Wrong with the World. But are doing Nothing to Change It.

 

[Myk]

Ya Know, It's Funny.

Both You and Me Want the Same Thing.

We Both would Like to See Nothing Change with regards to e-Cigarettes or e-Liquids. And Everything would be Just Like it was when we Started Using them.

But the Difference between Us is I Realize that this Isn't Going to Happen. It is All Going to Change.

If you think that Getting Something for Vaper's, Not Everything - but Something, by Dealing with Policy Makers is Being a Sheep or Laying Over, you are Entitled to your Opinion.

I Don't see it that way. Because I see getting Something thru Compromise is Better than Getting Nothing thru Non-Compromise.

The Sheep you referee to are the 95% of the People here who make Post After Post about What Wrong with the World. But are doing Nothing to Change It.

I just sent my story to a Philly councilman. Conversing with him on Twitter I equated sending former smokers out with smokers is like having AA meetings in bars.

Considering all the places that bans have been pushed this year and all the places that didn't get them I think we're doing pretty good at convincing them. We even got Utah to back off and that was all but a complete ban.

What's going on is the ANTZ are finding some squishy minded politicians and they're playing them with lies. That's not how you reach a compromise.

We already have compromise. Rude vaper in a bar, gets told to stop, goes into a rant and keeps on vaping. Cops or a bouncer throws them out. Considerate vaper in a bar, nobody cares. Compromise reached.

 

[LDS714]

I just sent my story to a Philly councilman. Conversing with him on Twitter I equated sending former smokers out with smokers is like having AA meetings in bars.

We already have compromise. Rude vaper in a bar, gets told to stop, goes into a rant and keeps on vaping. Cops or a bouncer throws them out. Considerate vaper in a bar, nobody cares. Compromise reached.

This!!!!!!

 

[LDS714]

Just stealth vaped in a busy Chicago Restaurant. For about an hour.

No one noticed.

No one was affected.

I could feel the ghost of Al Capone smiling down on me for being a fellow outlaw.

 

[Berylanna]

What some people see as compromise, I see as them slowly chipping away at us.
And eventually they will take everything.

What we win in compromise today is what they will be taking from us tomorrow.

We've all seen this before when we were smokers.
It amazes me that so many are falling for it all over again.

IMO it's both. But I don't think we gain by losing it all now. The reason: we need time. So losing slowly gives us better long-term odds than losing quickly. Live to fight another day.

 

[zoiDman]

IMO it's both. But I don't think we gain by losing it all now. The reason: we need time. So losing slowly gives us better long-term odds than losing quickly. Live to fight another day.

VERY Well Put Berylanna.

 

[DC2]

I'd rather see the FDA regulations come down now.
The idea of having more time pass was good in the beginning, but now it's not.

If the regulations screw us over, then we will have a rallying point and I hope we will fight.
If we don't fight, then we get what we deserve.

As it is, they are following a strategy that has worked throughout the ages.
Picking us apart piece by piece while not putting enough pressure at any one time to unite us in a fight that is sorely needed.

We're on a sinking ship, and we're all watching as the water slowly flows in.
I want to sink or swim, and I want that sooner rather than later.

Because later is going to be too late from what I've been seeing lately.
I sure hope I'm wrong though, I'll give you that much.

But to be honest, I'm starting to feel like a frog in a pot of water that will eventually be boiling.


The snus ban in the European Union speaks volumes.
And the new Tobacco Product Directive there is just another chapter.

That is the book I'm reading, and it's coming to a bookstore near you.
And they are hoping that by the time you read it, you'll have already given up.

 

[Myk]

As it is, they are following a strategy that has worked throughout the ages.
Picking us apart piece by piece while not putting enough pressure at any one time to unite us in a fight that is sorely needed.

Same thing they did for Prohibition.

And what fixed Prohibition? Was it not drinking where alcohol was forbidden?

 

[Berylanna]

I'd rather see the FDA regulations come down now.
[\QUOTE]

Yeah, and the FDA knows that.

The idea of having more time pass was good in the beginning, but now it's not.

If the regulations screw us over, then we will have a rallying point and I hope we will fight.
If we don't fight, then we get what we deserve.

As it is, they are following a strategy that has worked throughout the ages.
Picking us apart piece by piece while not putting enough pressure at any one time to unite us in a fight that is sorely needed.

I guess the idea of "when" time stops being on our side depends a lot on what we can do with the time. We need to get media educated. And maybe put pressure on our doctors to start gossiping about the bad stances of the AMA, and some other groups, I think pulmonary also has it wrong.

We're on a sinking ship, and we're all watching as the water slowly flows in.
I want to sink or swim, and I want that sooner rather than later.

Because later is going to be too late from what I've been seeing lately.
I sure hope I'm wrong though, I'll give you that much.

But to be honest, I'm starting to feel like a frog in a pot of water that will eventually be boiling.


The snus ban in the European Union speaks volumes.
And the new Tobacco Product Directive there is just another chapter.

That is the book I'm reading, and it's coming to a bookstore near you.
And they are hoping that by the time you read it, you'll have already given up.

Since I feel that way only on even-numbered days, I figure we must be on the cusp between need time and time's up. That's a good reason to try to hurry. I've been buried at work for months and will not get active until April. I'd love to see more T-shirts, slogans, media events (like cigarette .... cleanups), but I can't drive any of that before April. At that point I might try to drive some T-shirt somethings, not sure.

 

[aikanae1]

I think there's a lot more organizing going on than what may be obvious, "under the radar". That doesn't mean that it's time to slack off either, but I think business' are getting the picture that local regulations are not intended to be surviable. One example of a nice campaign is #IMPROOF. I'm seeing signs of more organized approaches. I think more people are converting to vaping faster than ANTZ can dish out propoganda.

 

[Bramble]

Replied to your PM message...

And I always wanted a rat for a pet.

I will love dogs until my last dying breath, perhaps more than almost every person I've ever met...
But rats do seem to have some favorable characteristics and I wish my wife would jump on board with the idea.

My dog would probably just eat it anyway, so maybe that idea is a non-starter either way.
:sigh:

And I LOVE Renaissance Faires because things can get really funky there.
I've had some after hours experiences I wouldn't even try to describe in this forum.

I certainly wouldn't enjoy confessing them to a priest.

Rats are the BEST, sweetest critters, we had them for years

 

[Anjaffm]

The Sheep you referee to are the 95% of the People here who make Post After Post about What Wrong with the World. But are doing Nothing to Change It.

I am very happy that you are obviously not referring to those vapers in Europe who have spent a lot of time and energy in writing to their MEPs before the vote on the TPD. A LOT of time and energy.
If we had not done that, then e-cigs would have been summarily banned - regulated as "medicines" - on 8 October 2013 already. As that was the plan.
Yes, our fight in Europe is far from over. But at least a total and complete e-cig ban - comparable to the total and complete snus ban outside Sweden - was prevented. By the people, the private citizens who raised their voices and who raised awareness among those who have the power to rule our lives.

And I am very happy that you are not referring to those vapers who are active in other countries, as well.

Yes, I agree: it is time for more people to get off their behinds and to actually do something.

Joining CASAA can be a great first step.
So is writing to your Congressman / your representatives. Let them know how you feel. And why this issue is important to you.
Do not expect a reply. Not at first, anyway. Write. Write again. Get others to write.
Yeah, they may even insult you and those like you by calling you "astroturfs" (paid industry shills) but yes, they WILL notice you.

Disclaimer:
Though I am a member of CASAA, my opinions on this forum are my own. When I speak, I speak for myself. And for nobody else. I wish to make this absolutely clear. And I most certainly hope that I have now made this absolutely clear.

 

[Jay-dub]

I just sent my story to a Philly councilman. Conversing with him on Twitter I equated sending former smokers out with smokers is like having AA meetings in bars.

Considering all the places that bans have been pushed this year and all the places that didn't get them I think we're doing pretty good at convincing them. We even got Utah to back off and that was all but a complete ban.

What's going on is the ANTZ are finding some squishy minded politicians and they're playing them with lies. That's not how you reach a compromise.

We already have compromise. Rude vaper in a bar, gets told to stop, goes into a rant and keeps on vaping. Cops or a bouncer throws them out. Considerate vaper in a bar, nobody cares. Compromise reached.

Right. This is rousing to fellow vapist's in a vape forum. Cool story bro...

But in the political world the industry is in a shakedown. You don't get targeted without paying a price for a reprieve. They started high - we say it's not for sale - they smash it. So, we have to barter. There's no way around it. No industry can be profitable without "playing the game". This is what happens when you hit the big leagues. If you can devise a means to reduce the gov's strong-arm, shakedown leverage without compromise I'd love to hear it. It would be a model no other industry has devised to date... I'd support it 100%. But in the meantime, it wouldn't hurt to engage by the only means available. The system, which is corrupt, is at least corrupt for all those who can afford. We need to find away to afford the means to bid at the rule making auction block. That's the only way to really get lawmakers attention. Or convincing enough voters to care enough about vaping to throw out any official, even ones they like, solely based on their vaping policy. I'd think that would be tougher and more expensive than other means...

You're looking at this from the perspective of Rights and fairness. I wish I could believe those things mattered...

 

[Anjaffm]

Looks to me like Zoidman and Jay-dub are playing good guy / bad guy.

ZoidMan has recently advocated writing to one's congressman / representative.
While Jay-dub is now saying: that is no use. Either pay for lobbyists or despair.
(knowing very well that normal people cannot compete with, for example, a company that easily shelled out 273 mil US$ to keep their potentially deadly drug on the market. - And adding just a little contempt, for good measure).

I thought you guys were a team? Which is it, now? What IS your recommendation? What CAN ordinary citizens do?

This good guy / bad guy stuff won't fly. It is too obvious.

 

[Jman8]

What some people see as compromise, I see as them slowly chipping away at us.
And eventually they will take everything.

What we win in compromise today is what they will be taking from us tomorrow.

We've all seen this before when we were smokers.
It amazes me that so many are falling for it all over again.

Ya Know, It's Funny.

Both You and Me Want the Same Thing.

We Both would Like to See Nothing Change with regards to e-Cigarettes or e-Liquids. And Everything would be Just Like it was when we Started Using them.

But the Difference between Us is I Realize that this Isn't Going to Happen. It is All Going to Change.

If you think that Getting Something for Vaper's, Not Everything - but Something, by Dealing with Policy Makers is Being a Sheep or Laying Over, you are Entitled to your Opinion.

I Don't see it that way. Because I see getting Something thru Compromise is Better than Getting Nothing thru Non-Compromise.

The Sheep you referee to are the 95% of the People here who make Post After Post about What Wrong with the World. But are doing Nothing to Change It.

Mainly responding to parts I chose to bold, but felt it best to present above quotes in their entirety.

I think we vapers (who were or are smokers) get that a whole lot of "compromise" is bound to happen if you are thinking the law for vaping ought to be exactly as things were in say 2010 for the industry. Hence, we are, or just were, in a golden era. In my neck of the woods, nothing has changed, that I'm aware of, from the 2010 world. But I reckon that by 2017, it'll be vastly different.

A few days ago, I watched hearing on usage ban (or actually usage allowance) that took about 2 hours to go thru. Not once did opposition say, "people are using these in a rude manner." Instead, it was what I'd call typical tactic of essentially saying, it is rude to use these anywhere indoors. Doesn't matter how it is used. Doesn't matter the device. Also seemingly doesn't matter if it has nicotine or not. What truly matters to opposition is that it is used period. Their version of compromise is, "don't use it at all now, anywhere. Possible exception would be your own home." As that isn't offering any compromise, then there position is, "just wait for the long term science to come in and prove these things are not harmful to innocent bystanders." When that occurs, then we can have the discussion about where and when to use these in public.

And never mind that in the mean time, that (well funded) factions of the opposition will be demonizing eCigs, and shaming all users who aren't using these things strictly to quit smoking, and when that is done, it is time to stop vaping. Continue vaping indefinitely, and opposition will continue to shame indefinitely.

That's what we fell for, still are falling for, in the anti-smoking campaign.

Why wouldn't vaping community use the history of smoking laws as a guide to what compromise will lead to? Has a fair compromise been reached with smoking? Is opposition done with that battle, or are they still going on? Indefinitely, as there are still young people who may smoke, and so as long as that's the case, perhaps more laws / restrictions are necessary.

The "vape everywhere" position gives vaping community the best chance for gradual compromise to be reached. Concede the whole indoors in one fell swoop, as inevitable anyways and congratulations on handing opposition a huge front without even a fight. If I were opposition, I'd think vaping community will be easy to roll over if such concessions are given without a fight.

Ultimate goal as far as I can tell with current strategy utilized by opposition is: ban its use everywhere (except own home), get rid of online sales, tax the heck out of face to face sales, and make the case that this is equal to smoking primarily for taxation purposes. Bonus points if you can get the shaming aspect in there as well. Having vapers feel as shameful as smokers do today would be icing on the cake. Go for it, and do not compromise. These vapers are really really easy to roll over on. They will barely fight you on usage bans. Once we get that and the online sales thing, we are mostly done. Victory is ours!

To which Jman, and many others will say, "still going to vape indoors, everywhere and you're still not going to catch me or even notice."