Workplace banning e-cigs

[elfstone]

Hi,

My workplace recently issued a clarification to the tobacco-free policy to explicitly include e-cigarettes. They state that the policy covers "all forms of tobacco use, including cigarettes, electronic cigarettes, cigars, pipes and smokeless tobacco". The policy also extends to hiring - nobody who uses tobacco can be hired.

I believe that e-cigarettes are wrongly defined as tobacco use. I find the whole policy inappropriate, especially the part of not hiring smokers, but not hiring vapers?

Does CASAA or anyone else have any form of informational tool or method of challenging such abusive inclusions? I wonder what is the basis for such a policy - are there any new pieces of information showing risks or hazards related to vaping?

It's very concerning. My employer is the kind that can influence state policies and other businesses, traditionally, follow the example of employers such as mine. Right now, they are very aggressively targeting currently employed tobacco users with cessation programs and public shaming and counseling and all sorts of measures. I'm assuming I will get in that same boat now, as a vaper. And I am pretty sure soon they will start firing whatever they define as tobacco users who fail to quit in spite of the extensive programs.

I feel like I am in some dark dystopia. It's hard to believe this is the USA anymore.

Any suggestions?

 

[jeffjr464]

sounds like a biiig wrongful dismissal suit if they fire you for being a smoker, who do you work for ? the third reich? if i was you i'd be going to the human rights commission with that because that's gross discrimination, you can't say "we don't hire smokers", so many civil rights being violated in this case, if you have a union, where are they? call a lawyer or if you really want to get this solved inform the media

 

[proudlion]

I don't know about Canada, but here in the US there are 21 States that can refuse to hire smokers

Editorial: Not hiring smokers crosses privacy line

sounds like a biiig wrongful dismissal suit if they fire you for being a smoker, who do you work for ? the third reich? if i was you i'd be going to the human rights commission with that because that's gross discrimination, you can't say "we don't hire smokers", so many civil rights being violated in this case, if you have a union, where are they? call a lawyer or if you really want to get this solved inform the media

 

[jeffjr464]

wow i didn't know that, it's so communist.... soon you will all be "working for the common good"

 

[Territoo]

I agree in the regards to the wrongful dismissal suit for firing simply because of smoking, however to now say that it is ok to say "that e-cigarettes are wrongly defined as tobacco use" make vapers come across as wanting to have our cake and eat it too. Remember, that during the SE/NJoy v FDA hearings, we were fighting to have e-cigs classified as tobacco products. Now that we have won that battle, are we gonna turn around and say that they aren't tobacco products. They are tobacco products, they just are not smoking products. They are a smoking alternative. So is the policy against smoking or is it against tobacco? If it includes all forms of tobacco, then it must include e-cigs. I work at a place where it is a criminal offense to bring tobacco products onto the facility. I don't even make an attempt to fight the issue w/ my e-cig, even though I will soon be going down to zero nic.

 

[elfstone]

Well... it's not that simple.

The point is what is the basis for it?

With smoking, there is a defensible position saying that there is strong evidence for loss of workdays due to sickness, and a disadvantage in negotiating group policies because of hard actuarial data about smokers' health expenditure and life expectancy... They will never say that - they say they do it for your own good, giving me flashbacks of paternalistic communist countries, but the real reason is bottom line and if push come to shove it's defensible in court.

But for vaping, there is no such argument, and in fact for other smokeless tobacco products, it is a difficult case to make. There is no data, little data or data showing insignificant risk.

The issue is really whether corporate can classify something as undesirable behavior by the power of fiat. If that's possible, and can't be fought, then the actual form of government of the country doesn't matter anymore, because I spend 80% of my awake time either at work or in activities are directly influenced by my work. Now they come after the 20% I still have. So, then, I will live my entire life in the corporate dictatorship, not as a free citizen.

Say - quit, you will, won't you? Well, that's not an option for me, and it's already not an option for a large proportion of the population. Soon, there won't really be any economic activity outside some form of corporate umbrella. So, what then?...

 

[havok333]

I'm curious, will you and fellow employees be subjected to nicotine testing? It seems I heard about asome company starting to do this a year or so ago on the news. I guess the next phase after this will be to dictate what you can/cannot eat.

 

[Luisa]

I'm curious, will you and fellow employees be subjected to nicotine testing? It seems I heard about asome company starting to do this a year or so ago on the news. I guess the next phase after this will be to dictate what you can/cannot eat.

That is already here and it will only get worse.

 

[elfstone]

I'm curious, will you and fellow employees be subjected to nicotine testing? It seems I heard about asome company starting to do this a year or so ago on the news. I guess the next phase after this will be to dictate what you can/cannot eat.

Funny you should say that. It's in the works. For now it is a voluntary enrollment in a company "healthful living plan", but I smell it becoming less voluntary as time goes by...

 

[jeffjr464]

i'm baffled by the sheer arrogance of a company that would submit people to "nicotine testing", i'm sorry but i'd say a few choice words before i walked out of that room, such an invasion of privacy and your body, they don't have a legal leg to stand on, go talk to a lawyer, if crap like this is allowed to continue it will someday become the norm and we will all end up being barcoded and sorted into classes etc, the real world really is turning into an L Ron Hubbard novel!!!!!

 

[RosaJ]

What about if you test positive for nicotine but are using a nic patch to quit smoking, or the gum for that matter?

 

[elfstone]

FDA approves that for 3 months. Using it beyond the regular preescription duration constitutes tobacco use.

 

[purelyscientific]

If they try to say they don't want vapers working for them because "tobacco" users get sick more ofter bring up that fact that inhailing PG prevents colds and if they really cared about keeping their employees healthy they would encourage them to vape.(no-nic juice of course )

“…the researchers found that the propylene glycol itself was a potent germicide. One part of glycol in 2,000,000 parts of air would—within a few seconds—kill concentrations of air-suspended pneumococci, streptococci and other bacteria numbering millions to the cubic foot.”

“Dr. Robertson placed groups of mice in a chamber and sprayed its air first with propylene glycol, then with influenza virus. All the mice lived. Then he sprayed the chamber with virus alone. All the mice died.”

» propylene glycol

They should be ENCOURAGING VAPING! HOORAH!

 

[elfstone]

OK, so to finalize this. CASAA doesn't have a portofolio of presentations and/or written statements/briefs about the state-of-the-art in vaping related research and policy making?

Isolated and non-congruent messages could harm more than no messages at all.

I really hope this could be done, though. I don't have the time or experience to start and lead such an effort, but should a workgroup be organized, I'd be happy to contribute. If there were some sort of task roster, I and others could probably pick up tasks and do them. Just a thought, really, no criticism - I know how hard is to keep up with all these emerging priorities in such an unfriendly environment... Thanks for all your efforts, really.

 

[havok333]

I kinda agree that it's surprising no one has come forward with documentation, presentations, etc. for combatting these type of policies. When legislators are being lobbied to NOT enact vaping bans there has to be something they have at the ready to present overly ambitious politicians Maybe if you could come up with the press clippings of already fought legal battles and get to the court transcripts?

I really hope things work out for you with this workplace lunacy. I don't like the sound of this heavy-handed policy making style at all but have no idea of any legal precedents that may already be in place for something similar.

 

[sonicdsl]

OK, so to finalize this. CASAA doesn't have a portofolio of presentations and/or written statements/briefs about the state-of-the-art in vaping related research and policy making?

Isolated and non-congruent messages could harm more than no messages at all.

I really hope this could be done, though. I don't have the time or experience to start and lead such an effort, but should a workgroup be organized, I'd be happy to contribute. If there were some sort of task roster, I and others could probably pick up tasks and do them. Just a thought, really, no criticism - I know how hard is to keep up with all these emerging priorities in such an unfriendly environment... Thanks for all your efforts, really.

Have you looked at the CASAA.org website? Specifically, here? Also, did you see the series of articles that Dr. Carl Phillips of CASAA posts here?

Hope these help!

 

[Mac]

This might help:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/outside/108748-how-beat-nicotine-urinalysis-screening.html

 

[elfstone]

Thanks, Mac. I had looked at those, of course, that's how I came to post here for help - I saw that there was something there.

And, no, I really am not interested in "beating the test". I mean, if I have to, I could do it, of course. It is a matter of principle.

I know someone did a lit review on the topic, I have that but I don't know if I can post it (it was posted somewhere on the forum...)

I am actually thinking of re-doing that, but I wouldn't be able to publish it, of course...

Unfortunately, it's no longer an emergency for me - I had thought I would have an opportunity to meet with certain people sort of high up that were willing to discuss the issue. I got an e-mail yesterday that this is no longer the case...

 

[kristin]

Elfstone, look here: CASAA Printable Material specifically the "Legislative Packet" and Here: Lab Reports: ecigarettes for what lab reports we could get our hands on and Here: Clinical Research: Electronic Cigarettes for all of the clinical research we could get and finally Here: Scientific Opinon: Electronic cigarettes for scientific opinion papers on e-cigs. Some of the most recent research is not available for free to the public or for us to post. If you want copies of those you'd need to buy them.

We actually have been discussing putting together a packet for people to take to work and web page to send employers to, but it's kind of tricky because most employers have the right to restrict smoking/tobacco use on their property (ironically, the opposite isn't true anymore in most places.) But it IS in the works - it's taking a bit of a back seat to some other major projects we have been doing. We may take you up on your offer to help!

OK, so to finalize this. CASAA doesn't have a portofolio of presentations and/or written statements/briefs about the state-of-the-art in vaping related research and policy making?

Isolated and non-congruent messages could harm more than no messages at all.

I really hope this could be done, though. I don't have the time or experience to start and lead such an effort, but should a workgroup be organized, I'd be happy to contribute. If there were some sort of task roster, I and others could probably pick up tasks and do them. Just a thought, really, no criticism - I know how hard is to keep up with all these emerging priorities in such an unfriendly environment... Thanks for all your efforts, really.

 

[elfstone]

Thanks, kristin - that I had missed (http://casaa.org/Printable_Material.html).

I fully understand and am content with smoking and vaping restrictions on institutional property. I am not OK with smoking / vaping restrictions at my home.

Seriously, is there a way I can help?