Young Kids Vaping. How do you feel about it?

[Mazinny]

Another part is if teens weren't vaping then very probably they would be smoking. Typically, most smokers start around that age.

Since we don't live in a perfect world where no addictions exist, we can yet try our best to prevent our youth falling into the same mistake we did but between bad and bad I rather see them vaping than smoking. At least, when they get to their late 20's they won't be coughing their lungs out. Probably even be able to run a couple of marathons with their PV in their mouth j/k

Perhaps some, but the numbers suggest definitely not the majority. Underage smoking has been on a stead decline since 1997 ( way before vaping ) whereas underage vaping has increased fourfold betweeen 2010 and 2014. One survey suggests that there are in fact more under 18's vaping than smoking in 2015.

 

[DC2]

Perhaps some, but the numbers suggest definitely not the majority. Underage smoking has been on a stead decline since 1997 ( way before vaping ) whereas underage vaping has increased fourfold betweeen 2010 and 2014. One survey suggests that there are in fact more under 18's vaping than smoking in 2015.

You might want to read some of these...

CDC again grossly misrepresents NYTS e-cig youth usage data to deceive, scare and lobby for FDA deeming reg | E-Cigarette Forum

CDC survey finds record annual decline, record low teen smoking; so CDC & FDA attack e-cigs again | E-Cigarette Forum

New FDA webpage repeats CDC’s deceitful spin on 2014 NYTS data about tobacco use, vaping and youth | E-Cigarette Forum

FDA congratulates itself for sharp decline in youth smoking, boasts of winning award | E-Cigarette Forum

 

[Mazinny]

You might want to read some of these...

CDC again grossly misrepresents NYTS e-cig youth usage data to deceive, scare and lobby for FDA deeming reg | E-Cigarette Forum

CDC survey finds record annual decline, record low teen smoking; so CDC & FDA attack e-cigs again | E-Cigarette Forum

New FDA webpage repeats CDC’s deceitful spin on 2014 NYTS data about tobacco use, vaping and youth | E-Cigarette Forum

FDA congratulates itself for sharp decline in youth smoking, boasts of winning award | E-Cigarette Forum

I have read two of these threads but i stopped reading Bill Godshalls posts a while ago. Not gonna start again. No disrespect to you or anyone else who may like him and think he is helpful to our cause, but i believe he engages in everything he accuses the other side of, be it fallacious arguments, disingenuous cherry picking of data, spin etc... Regardless of his motivation, i think he is too emotionally invested to see things clearly. I don't believe zealotry could be fought with zealotry. Don't some of you wish there was a "dislike" button on ECF now !

In any case, i am not interested in a back and forth about him so i won't respond to any negative comments about my take on him. I don't want ( or believe i am able to ) change anyone's opinion on him. To each their own.

If you have any solid data to show vaping has had a significant impact in teenage smoking rate drops, i would love to see them. I don't doubt it has had a small impact, but like i said the rates were on a sharp decline prior to the advent of vaping and i haven't seen any surveys showing the rates are declining faster because of vaping.

 

[DC2]

If you have any solid data to show vaping has had a significant impact in teenage smoking rate drops, i would love to see them

I just posted them.
If you can't be bothered to read them then I don't know what to tell you.

If you've read any of his posts, you would know he links to all kinds of things.
And those links are there in those posts you don't want to read.

 

[Mazinny]

I just posted them.
If you can't be bothered to read them then I don't know what to tell you.

If you've read any of his posts, you would know he links to all kinds of things.
And those links are there in those posts you don't want to read.

Yeah, but he writes 600 page memos with 5000 links, a huge majority of which are red herrings. Again, i am asking you, do you believe underage smoking has been decreasing at a significantly faster rate since the advent of vaping, and if so, link me to a survey ( i will gladly admit i was wring if it is a scientific survey ). I do not believe E-cigs are a gateway to cigarette use in youth mind you, all i'm saying is that i haven't seen any studies showing a significant correlation one way or another.

Believe me i tried following his line of reasoning and just gave up ! I posted this definition as it relates to him and i stick by it :

Proof by Verbosity

The practice of burying you with so much information and misinformation that you cannot possibly respond to it all is called proof by verbosity, or argumentum verbosium. To win a debate, I need not have any support for my position if I can simply throw so many things at you that you can't respond to all of them.

This is the favorite device of conspiracy theorists. The sheer volume of random tidbits that they throw out there gives the impression of their position having been thoroughly researched and well supported by many pillars of evidence. Any given tidbit is probably a red herring, but since there are so many of them, it would be hopeless (and fruitless) to respond intelligently to each and every one of them. Thus the argument appears to be impregnable and bulletproof. It may not be possible to construct a cogent argument using proof by verbosity, but it is very easy to construct an irrefutable argument.

 

[DC2]

Yeah, but he writes 600 page memos with 5000 links, a huge majority of which are red herrings. Again, i am asking you, do you believe underage smoking has been decreasing at a significantly faster rate since the advent of vaping, and if so, link me to a survey ( i will gladly admit i was wring if it is a scientific survey ). I do not believe E-cigs are a gateway to cigarette use in youth mind you, all i'm saying is that i haven't seen any studies showing a significant correlation one way or another.

You don't have to read his immense rebuttals to all the propaganda.
With all of the links he provides as evidence of his arguments.

Just read the threads I linked.
Or at least one of them maybe.

EDIT: How did you get that ANY of his links are to "red herring" studies?
EDIT: Let alone a "huge majority" of them.

 

[YoursTruli]

The only advice I can offer the original poster is to inform your parents of the situation and let them do the parenting. Sure, it's not cool to be a rat. But let's be frank, family looks out for family first and while it may be an unpopular choice... if you can't look out for a family member and do the right thing, who's gonna do it for you??

This is how I raised my kids 3 of 5 are adults now. We always encouraged them to look out for each other, but made it clear they are not responsible to parent their siblings. If their siblings were doing something wrong or dangerous... talk to us and let us handle it... if it's an immediate danger stop it and call us.

Should a 13 year old be vaping?? I'd say not at all. It is of no positive value to physical and intelectual development. There's no benefit at all. I'd also question where this 13 year old is getting access to the gear and juice. A mod, tank and juice isn't that cheap.

I don't support the mindset of well I made this poor choice as a teen to start smoking... so I can't tell any other kid they should not make that choice. The "everyone is doing it" justification was stupid in the 70's when I pulled it and still stupid today. That's just flippin irresponsible as almost any adult smoker knows starting at any age is not a wise choice and nothing good comes from smoking. If given an opportunity to educate someone that helps them make a better life choice... who says every teenager needs to learn bad life lessons the hard way. Many may have to learn the hard way, but many won't if caring adults can give them valuable guidance.

^This^

+in this case the parents should be made aware period.

and I also do not support the I did it at that age, kids are going to do what they want to do, you can't stop them ...type arguments... doesn't that fly in the face of all of the "parents should be parenting their children" cries that usually run through most similar "kids" threads?
How is it OK as a parent to step back throw up your hands and say kids will be kids there is nothing I can do about it I guess I am glad they are picking what I feel is the lesser evil and when did it become OK to pick and choose which laws they get to break? Because you (as a parent/adult) feel it's OK to break this one?

 

[Mazinny]

You don't have to read his immense rebuttals to all the propaganda.
With all of the links he provides as evidence of his arguments.

Just read the threads I linked.
Or at least one of them maybe.

EDIT: How did you get that ANY of his links are to "red herring" studies?
EDIT: Let alone a "huge majority" of them.

I had read two of them and just finished reading the third ( just for you ! ). Still i haven't seen a link to any study showing teenage smoking rates have fallen as a result of vaping. I will read the fourth one too. I have however seen many surveys showing a steady decrease in teenage smoking since it's recent peak in 1997.

I used to follow his postings until i couldn't any more. So so frustrating. My main issue with him was/is that most of the data supports our position. No need to exaggerate and dismiss offhandedly and habitually even the smallest tangential studies that don't seem to support our position. It's ok to concede some small insignificant points the other side makes. It doesn't look good if our advocates come across as zealots too.

edit : just read the fourth one. This is his statement :

FDA's CTP sent the following e-mail out today (to subscribers), which of course didn't mention how the sharp increase in vaping has sharply reduced youth cigarette smoking to a never anticipated record low.

Where are the supporting studies proving the above ?

 

[DC2]

That's because you are confusing "tobacco use" with smoking.
Which is what the "official" surveys are purposely trying to make you do.

They include electronic cigarettes with tobacco use.
Even though they are NOT YET deemed to be tobacco products.

They define anyone who has "used" the product in the last 30 days as a user.
They fail to even differentiate between zero nicotine use and nicotine use.

 

[AndriaD]

Proof by Verbosity

The practice of burying you with so much information and misinformation that you cannot possibly respond to it all is called proof by verbosity, or argumentum verbosium. To win a debate, I need not have any support for my position if I can simply throw so many things at you that you can't respond to all of them.

This is the favorite device of conspiracy theorists. The sheer volume of random tidbits that they throw out there gives the impression of their position having been thoroughly researched and well supported by many pillars of evidence. Any given tidbit is probably a red herring, but since there are so many of them, it would be hopeless (and fruitless) to respond intelligently to each and every one of them. Thus the argument appears to be impregnable and bulletproof. It may not be possible to construct a cogent argument using proof by verbosity, but it is very easy to construct an irrefutable argument.

I saw this posted somewhere around here; I thought it was pointed at Jman.

Andria

 

[Mazinny]

No i'm not confusing the two. I have read the surveys. The CDC and Bill Godshall are both spinning the same data to arrive at opposite conclusions.

My point was and is : smoking of cigarettes has been decreasing steadily among high school students since 1997 ( way before vaping ). Where are the studies showing that the rate of decrease was affected significantly by e cig use ?

 

[Mazinny]

I saw this posted somewhere around here; I thought it was pointed at Jman.

Andria

He as well . Bill Godshall was in the back of my mind when i posted it originally !

 

[Jman8]

Just wait till I bust out my "proof by mediocrity" stuff on what you post @Mazinny

 

[Mazinny]

Just wait till I bust out my "proof by mediocrity" stuff on what you post @Mazinny

lol now that was actually funny. Diverting our attention from the actual issue as usual, but still funny !

p.s. I didn't say it was directed at you, i just agreed that it applies to you as well

It might be telling though, that some members here think of you when they read the definition !

 

[Jman8]

lol now that was actually funny. Diverting our attention from the actual issue as usual, but still funny !

Just trying to keep up with your humorous, albeit pathetic, use of the "proof by verbosity" stuff.

 

[Mazinny]

Just trying to keep up with your humorous, albeit pathetic, use of the "proof by verbosity" stuff.

that is sweet of you !

 

[AndriaD]

lol now that was actually funny. Diverting our attention from the actual issue as usual, but still funny !

p.s. I didn't say it was directed at you, i just agreed that it applies to you as well

It might be telling though, that some members here think of you when they read the definition !

Well I actually agree with about 99% of everything Jman writes around here (really everything except the stuff about "moderate smoking" -- never a possibility for me!), but at the time I saw that Proof by Verbosity thing, he had *just* posted some very long-winded reply to someone, so it seemed apt, if pointed in his direction.

I think the thing to keep in mind is that while Godshall is now on "our side" as regards vaping and THR, he didn't start there -- he started out as one of the smoke-free nannies, so I suppose it's natural for him to still be using the same tactics. It's convenient for vaping that he espouses our cause, but he started off spouting the anti-smoking/2nd-hand smoke lies chapter and verse -- he's really a nanny/anti that has "seen the light" regarding THR. Pity that more of them can't do the same.

Andria

 

[englishmick]

No i'm not confusing the two. I have read the surveys. The CDC and Bill Godshall are both spinning the same data to arrive at opposite conclusions.

My point was and is : smoking of cigarettes has been decreasing steadily among high school students since 1997 ( way before vaping ). Where are the studies showing that the rate of decrease was affected significantly by e cig use ?

There's a name for this, I can't recall it right now. I heard it recently in a discussion about a change in some aspect of wealth distribution in America. This had been changing on a straight line since around 1980. For 8 years it was Bush's fault. Then it became Obama's fault for the last 6 years. Soon someone else will start getting the blame for it.

I'm not sure how you would prove a cause and effect relationship between a decrease in smoking and an increase in vaping, even if it's there.

SmokeyJoe talks about the 20% Prevalence Rate effect. This applies to the population as a whole, I don't know if 20PR can be applied directly to teenagers. Does a drop in the smoking rate among teens mean there will be a drop among adults down the road, or just people starting later? Is the anti propaganda working? Are teens smarter these days? Is the availability of vaping reducing the movement of teens into smoking? Is 20PR breaking down? Everyone will tend to apply their own best guess to it. Common sense indicates to me that there would be a connection, but that's not proof. I haven't seen any convincing proof though it may be there and I haven't come across it.

 

[Mazinny]

Well I actually agree with about 99% of everything Jman writes around here (really everything except the stuff about "moderate smoking" -- never a possibility for me!), but at the time I saw that Proof by Verbosity thing, he had *just* posted some very long-winded reply to someone, so it seemed apt, if pointed in his direction.

I think the thing to keep in mind is that while Godshall is now on "our side" as regards vaping and THR, he didn't start there -- he started out as one of the smoke-free nannies, so I suppose it's natural for him to still be using the same tactics. It's convenient for vaping that he espouses our cause, but he started off spouting the anti-smoking/2nd-hand smoke lies chapter and verse -- he's really a nanny/anti that has "seen the light" regarding THR. Pity that more of them can't do the same.

Andria

Yup the mindset of a zealot won't change. Doesn't matter the issue, the tactics will remain the same. Completely inflexible, and unable to fully listen to or grasp what the other side says. We have all come across people who are already forming a response in their heads when listening to the others argument.

 

[Mazinny]

There's a name for this, I can't recall it right now. I heard it recently in a discussion about a change in some aspect of wealth distribution in America. This had been changing on a straight line since around 1980. For 8 years it was Bush's fault. Then it became Obama's fault for the last 6 years. Soon someone else will start getting the blame for it.

I'm not sure how you would prove a cause and effect relationship between a decrease in smoking and an increase in vaping, even if it's there.

SmokeyJoe talks about the 20% Prevalence Rate effect. This applies to the population as a whole, I don't know if 20PR can be applied directly to teenagers. Does a drop in the smoking rate among teens mean there will be a drop among adults down the road, or just people starting later? Is the anti propaganda working? Are teens smarter these days? Is the availability of vaping reducing the movement of teens into smoking? Is 20PR breaking down? Everyone will tend to apply their own best guess to it. Common sense indicates to me that there would be a connection, but that's not proof. I haven't seen any convincing proof though it may be there and I haven't come across it.

Don't even get me started on " putting blame on or giving credit to " presidents for phenomena that has absolutely nothing to do with their presidency.