Your feelings on manufacture of vape gear- China
- Thread starter Burner52
- Start date
- th_trl_thread_readers 0
- Status
Agreed!
There is a bunch of very reputable manufacturers that are based out of china, and I would have no qualms about buying from them. IMHO, consumers of vaping products or actually anything in general, need to learn how to make more informed choices to what they are buying and consuming. A bottle of snapple labelled "all natural" doesn't actually mean anything, so if you were very health conscious and knew what you were buying, you wouldn't buy snapple.
That said, today, I would only go far enough to purchase hardware from Chinese manufacturers, not e-liquids, and to that end, reputation is everything because I have no way of making sure I know what I am getting. But when I buy a tank that is supposed to quartz glass, I would know when I get it if it wasn't, same for aluminium, brass, or stainless steel.
Replied from an apple computer, mostly made in China.
I don't LIKE the fact that I'm sending money to China but, on the other hand, I appreciate what they have done for vaping and that they provide an inexpensive means for people to buy devices at affordable prices. I'm very fortunate to be able to purchase some authentic devices but most people can not; and very few people would have tried vaping if it hadn't been for the abundance of low-priced devices, to make the experiment affordable. So, it's hard for me to be that harsh on China; but sending any money to a nation that represses it's people the way that China does, and that doesn't respect religious freedoms and human rights, IS very bothersome. That's why I try to buy as much non-China stuff as possible.
I'm MORE troubled by these "authentic" companies, and many of the vendors, that fleece customers for FAR more than the products are worth. I'm a free-market guy so I support their right to charge whatever they want for their products and I trust the marketplace to decide their fate. However, the markups that most of these companies and vendors are using (on these "authentics") are only feeding the China monster. The ridiculous prices are (unnecessarily) pushing the majority of vapers to Chinese products and clones. It's one thing to charge a premium price for better machining and QC, but charging 1000%-2000% more than what a machinist in China can produce the product for is just plain stupid. Take an authentic dripper that may cost $120 and it's best (1:1) clones that are available for $15. The authentics probably run less than $25 to produce. A $95 mark-up, by the time it reaches the consumer, is out of hand. A $60-$80 price leaves plenty of room for profit for both the manufacturer and the vendor while enticing the consumer to keep the money here at home. Kryptonite and their 454 Big Block is a PERFECT example of an authentic maker doing it right and, in my opinion, they're putting the other authentic companies TO SHAME with it - they're proving that the other guys have been taking advantage of the consumer for a long time. How about the regulated mod market Hana takes a $60 DNA40 chip (that they don't even make and is the heart of their mod) and charge $250 for an aluminum box with some buttons and screws on it, when a similar box can be had for $5-$10? Thats highway robbery and pure hubris. I EXPECT China to try and exploit us; I DON'T expect our own makers to jack us around. But they do. It's a shame. I think that, IF they produced their products (in larger numbers) and sold them for a more reasonable price, they would see FAR more sales - I think that more people would, like me, spend the extra money to buy American and authentic. Instead, they seem hell-bent on driving the 'average Joe' as far away as they can and catering to we lucky few that can afford luxury and extravagance. As a business owner, I'd prefer to be Walmart over Saks 5th Avenue every day of the year! Saks may be more prestigious but Walmart makes a WHOLE lot more money and does better by their customers.
As for QC in China - it's as good as it is anywhere in the world. The difference is the demands that are placed on a particular facility and a particular product. They are capable of extremely high QC; and the iPhone is a prefect example of what they're capable of. The thing with most vaping products made in China is that they are intended for a consumer that demands low price FAR more than they demand quality. They are simply delivering what we are asking for. Sure, some of us will gripe about the QC but MOST people just buy, buy, buy the cheap products they sell. Like my previous example, buy a $15 clone of a $120 authentic dripper - you can buy 4 of them for 1/2 the price of an authentic. Chances are, at least a couple of them will be decent, if not more. In the end, even if you toss one or two, the value is actually a lot better than the authentics. That's how most consumers look at it, and how they prefer it. The QC problems don't occur because they aren't capable of high QC, it occurs because they're always seeking to bring products to market at a lower price and in HUGE volumes. If we had to depend on our own domestic, high QC manufacturers there'd be a waiting line for people to get into vaping, because they can't even keep up with the demand of the authentic market - FORGET about them handling the mainstream vaping market.
The shame of it all is that some of these authentic manufacturers could REALLY take over the market if they got their act together - realized that selling volume at reasonable prices beats limited quantities at high prices, EVERY time. Realized that bringing a product to market on time and in sufficient quantities beats pre-orders and limited quantities, EVERY TIME. All these things make more money and create a larger and more loyal consumer base, and that's the point! If only the cutting edge designers were as good at business as they are at designing devices. Ah well, we can always dream.
Carry on. Rant over. Lol!
I'm MORE troubled by these "authentic" companies, and many of the vendors, that fleece customers for FAR more than the products are worth. I'm a free-market guy so I support their right to charge whatever they want for their products and I trust the marketplace to decide their fate. However, the markups that most of these companies and vendors are using (on these "authentics") are only feeding the China monster. The ridiculous prices are (unnecessarily) pushing the majority of vapers to Chinese products and clones. It's one thing to charge a premium price for better machining and QC, but charging 1000%-2000% more than what a machinist in China can produce the product for is just plain stupid. Take an authentic dripper that may cost $120 and it's best (1:1) clones that are available for $15. The authentics probably run less than $25 to produce. A $95 mark-up, by the time it reaches the consumer, is out of hand. A $60-$80 price leaves plenty of room for profit for both the manufacturer and the vendor while enticing the consumer to keep the money here at home. Kryptonite and their 454 Big Block is a PERFECT example of an authentic maker doing it right and, in my opinion, they're putting the other authentic companies TO SHAME with it - they're proving that the other guys have been taking advantage of the consumer for a long time. How about the regulated mod market Hana takes a $60 DNA40 chip (that they don't even make and is the heart of their mod) and charge $250 for an aluminum box with some buttons and screws on it, when a similar box can be had for $5-$10? Thats highway robbery and pure hubris. I EXPECT China to try and exploit us; I DON'T expect our own makers to jack us around. But they do. It's a shame. I think that, IF they produced their products (in larger numbers) and sold them for a more reasonable price, they would see FAR more sales - I think that more people would, like me, spend the extra money to buy American and authentic. Instead, they seem hell-bent on driving the 'average Joe' as far away as they can and catering to we lucky few that can afford luxury and extravagance. As a business owner, I'd prefer to be Walmart over Saks 5th Avenue every day of the year! Saks may be more prestigious but Walmart makes a WHOLE lot more money and does better by their customers.
As for QC in China - it's as good as it is anywhere in the world. The difference is the demands that are placed on a particular facility and a particular product. They are capable of extremely high QC; and the iPhone is a prefect example of what they're capable of. The thing with most vaping products made in China is that they are intended for a consumer that demands low price FAR more than they demand quality. They are simply delivering what we are asking for. Sure, some of us will gripe about the QC but MOST people just buy, buy, buy the cheap products they sell. Like my previous example, buy a $15 clone of a $120 authentic dripper - you can buy 4 of them for 1/2 the price of an authentic. Chances are, at least a couple of them will be decent, if not more. In the end, even if you toss one or two, the value is actually a lot better than the authentics. That's how most consumers look at it, and how they prefer it. The QC problems don't occur because they aren't capable of high QC, it occurs because they're always seeking to bring products to market at a lower price and in HUGE volumes. If we had to depend on our own domestic, high QC manufacturers there'd be a waiting line for people to get into vaping, because they can't even keep up with the demand of the authentic market - FORGET about them handling the mainstream vaping market.
The shame of it all is that some of these authentic manufacturers could REALLY take over the market if they got their act together - realized that selling volume at reasonable prices beats limited quantities at high prices, EVERY time. Realized that bringing a product to market on time and in sufficient quantities beats pre-orders and limited quantities, EVERY TIME. All these things make more money and create a larger and more loyal consumer base, and that's the point! If only the cutting edge designers were as good at business as they are at designing devices. Ah well, we can always dream.
Carry on. Rant over. Lol!
If the authentic mod makers are fleecing customers and charging too much, how is it they sell out so quickly? One thing I learned in a business class years and years ago was that a manufacturer should price according to supply and demand. If demand is high, raise the price until they are able to keep up with demand. Seems most authentic mods are underpriced. The argument that things should be priced based on what they cost to manufacture is just silly. I don't buy things based on cost of materials or scrap value plus a few hours labor. I buy things I like. Just about everything I buy is worth what I paid for it, or I would not have bought it. I do research first.
Is a nice dinner at an exclusive restaurant and balcony seats at Swan Lake for 2 worth $600? Not to most. But the experience with someone special made the dinner and show worth every penny to me...
Is a nice dinner at an exclusive restaurant and balcony seats at Swan Lake for 2 worth $600? Not to most. But the experience with someone special made the dinner and show worth every penny to me...
FACT: You can't make any money if you don't have any stock!
__________________________________
I just don't fully understand why these non-Chinese "authentic" mod makers do what they do .... They will make a run of a couple of hundred mods and then stop production. Then maybe 6 months later they may make another limited run, and stop again.
Is that any way to do business? As long as there remains a demand for there overpriced authentic, you would think that they would just keep making them until the demand finally tapered off. The way it normally is with the majority of these mod makers, you would think that there product is made from "Unobtainium" or something similar.
__________________________________
The Lays Potato Chip company here in the US had the right idea when they would say in one of there old TV advertisements years ago .... "Eat as many as you want, we'll just make more"!
__________________________________
I just don't fully understand why these non-Chinese "authentic" mod makers do what they do .... They will make a run of a couple of hundred mods and then stop production. Then maybe 6 months later they may make another limited run, and stop again.
Is that any way to do business? As long as there remains a demand for there overpriced authentic, you would think that they would just keep making them until the demand finally tapered off. The way it normally is with the majority of these mod makers, you would think that there product is made from "Unobtainium" or something similar.
__________________________________
The Lays Potato Chip company here in the US had the right idea when they would say in one of there old TV advertisements years ago .... "Eat as many as you want, we'll just make more"!
Last edited:
Crunch all you want. We'll make more.
While I agree that they'd make more money keeping stock, it's just not that simple. These guys aren't manufacturing in house usually. They have to deal with logistics, being put in line at the machine shop, sourcing materials, then upgrading and sourcing new and better materials... All while attempting to keep the cost reasonable.
And they have to gather feed back after each run to decide whether another run is worth it and where to improve.
There's a lot that goes into it if you care at all about your end product. It can easily take months to go from feedback to sourcing materials to starting another run to receiving materials to assembly.
While I agree that they'd make more money keeping stock, it's just not that simple. These guys aren't manufacturing in house usually. They have to deal with logistics, being put in line at the machine shop, sourcing materials, then upgrading and sourcing new and better materials... All while attempting to keep the cost reasonable.
And they have to gather feed back after each run to decide whether another run is worth it and where to improve.
There's a lot that goes into it if you care at all about your end product. It can easily take months to go from feedback to sourcing materials to starting another run to receiving materials to assembly.
Last edited:
Meanwhile that "P" company just keeps making one after another ... after another. So I really can't buy into the 'jump into the market' ... 'dazzle folks with BS' ... 'and then wait for the dust to settle' as a good market strategy.
You can either get high quality products for way too much money, or low quality products for 1/10 of the price, it's your choice.
As long as the Chinese manufacturers don't sell their clones as authentics its all goos.
Besides there are some Chinese manufacturers that have nice quality products, not everything from china is junk.
As long as the Chinese manufacturers don't sell their clones as authentics its all goos.
Besides there are some Chinese manufacturers that have nice quality products, not everything from china is junk.
The "p"thingy company?
That's not exactly a guy in his basement or a b+m operation outsourcing like most authentic mech makers.
But i totally agree that dazzle folks with bs is bad for business.
Sent from my device.
And just how did they transition from "a guy in his basement" into "not exactly a guy in his basement" is my point.
The same can also be said for Brandon at Evolv.
How about Rob at Reo?
All three companies started in a basement.
Here's a successful business model for you.
AMG started out as a 2 man shop. Last year they produced 30,200 engines.
Last edited:
And yet your examples will help justify my statement.
How many people right now are up in arms about the availability of the p3?
Evolve is notorious for putting out chips they cannot meet the demand for.
And Rob is out of something I'm looking for almost every time I visit reosmods.
It doesn't just happen. And financing something that blows up over night on a 9 to 5 doesn't allow for growth at its potential. You have to see a return on your investment before you can invest more.
Hence scottua
Hence Ikenvape
Hence mountainoak
Hence ad nauseum...
And yet there are companies that built an empire with $50 and a slide whistle... Microsoft and macintosh...
Sent from my device.
Last edited:
the reason it cost 1000 to 2000 % more than for a similar product made in china
is because it costs 1000 to 2000 % more to make it here.
really.
a good machinist here makes between 20 and 40 bucks plus beni's an hour.
add in workmans comp,unemployment insurance an various other costs just for
hiring help you can see why there is such a difference in pricing.
maybe they are out to steal your money but,its not for the reasons you think
they are.
regards
mike
the reason it cost 1000 to 2000 % more than for a similar product made in china
is because it costs 1000 to 2000 % more to make it here.
really.
a good machinist here makes between 20 and 40 bucks plus beni's an hour.
add in workmans comp,unemployment insurance an various other costs just for
hiring help you can see why there is such a difference in pricing.
maybe they are out to steal your money but,its not for the reasons you think
they are.
regards
mike
A steel tube including all the things involved, doesn't cost 200$ to make,not even close.
If a European manufacturer can manage to sell a high quality mod for 50-70€ and still make a profit, so can you.
Last edited:
thats still quite higher than in China.people pay more for some model cars when another maker has
a car model of equal value for a few thousands less. perceived value factors in also.
i just don't buy into the"they are ripping me off"mentality.
make your own mod and sell it. i'll bet your perceived value of that item will change.
regards
mike
100's of Chinese product fails perhaps thousands. Defective GLASS was a big one...
eh, so far the Joyetechs seem well made, and for the most part kangers too. doesnt bother me much. Less toxic than a cig.
i believe the only people bringing this up are small us manufacturers who are trying to compete with very little capital in markets that require it.
it would be one thing if they had usa made phones, usa made computers, and usa made tv's to back up their "i only buy usa products". but you and i both know they dont.
if you dont want money going to china, go to your local caucus. Write and call your representatives. But telling people to not buy it only the market you're invested in, is just guilt trip marketting and i think thats kind of sad and pathetic.
it would be one thing if they had usa made phones, usa made computers, and usa made tv's to back up their "i only buy usa products". but you and i both know they dont.
if you dont want money going to china, go to your local caucus. Write and call your representatives. But telling people to not buy it only the market you're invested in, is just guilt trip marketting and i think thats kind of sad and pathetic.
Although breaking up paragraphs isn't grammatically correct, it's preferred online for those of us who can't read walls of text on a monitor. Your post appears to be well thought out and I'm sure you had interesting observations, but there is no way I could possible read it.
- Status
Similar threads
