The end of microcoils?
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This definition often breaks down since many substances in ordinary experience, such as rocks, salts, and metals, are composed of large crystalline networks of chemically bonded atoms or ions, but are not made of discrete molecules.
I was not suprised about " organic flavors and organic extracts" being a concern.
There's been enough topics over the years I've been here where you can see that the possibly dangerous stuff, like diacetyls, and othr stuff, can be removed in lab-created flavorings, but you can't remove stuff that comes from "mother nature in the wild".
I stopped vaping ejuice w/organic flavorings a while ago due to traces of stuff that I believe is in there and I don't want in my lungs.
As for Dr. F. giving "opinions", I'll take an opinion from a vape friendly medical researcher any day over 1) antz or 2) anyone in the general vaping population who does not have a formal background in medical / physiological / combustion science areas....
Sure he could be less than perfectly right about some things, but when he says "use caution" those are the very things I will tend to be cautious about.....because I don't think Dr. F. makes pronouncements in order to hear himself talk LOL
I subscribe to the "less is more" when considering putting stuff into my lungs, which are already doing a ton of filtering in the human being who doesn't vape or smoke; for someone like me, who smoked for decades, my lungs need to be treated with extra care, since there is no denying that any smoker has incurred damage to their lungs at some level.
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Never say Never.
The Regs are Coming. And a lot is going to Change as to what you can put into a Bottle and sell as an e-Liquid. And what type of Container and Label you will need to have.
Several studies have found metals in e-cig vapor. Most of them were cigalikes, however. In one cigalike they found pretty high concentrations of tin in the vapor (they actually condensed the vapor, spun it in a machine, and produced tin pellets at levels visible by the naked eye). However, another cigalike brand had no tin in it. It seems the tin is coming from the solder joints that some cigalikes use. Since most of us here don't use cheap products with janky solder jobs, we probably aren't susceptible to this.
Other studies have found chromium, nickel, zinc, lead and probably others. Since Kanthal is made of Chromium, Iron, and Aluminum, then it follows that the metal in the vapor much be "leeching" from the coil wire itself. (Nichrome, as its name implies is Nickel, Chromium, Iron. Some cigalikes probably use Nichrome which would explain the nickel being found).
Keep in mind that most of these metals are found in analogs as well (but at lower levels. Nickel and Chromium specifically seem to be higher in e-cigs than in analogs). One study from USC (University of Southern Cal) found that organic molecules (carcinogens in cigs) were detected at near zero levels in e-cigs. However, metals could be present in higher amounts. Overall this study concluded that the total level of particulate matter emitted from e-cigs are 10 times lower than analogs even though some metals are higher. (This was a second-hand vapor study, by the way).
I am still skeptical, however, that pulsing or dry firing the wire (for a couple of seconds) will make much of a difference either way here. Of course, it's possible that a wire that has been stressed repeatedly could emit more particles than a "new" wire, but I don't think anyone has done such research that can tell us exactly when a wire becomes unsafe for our purposes. Kanthal is made to handle high temps and is made for use in things like heating elements. However, it was never intended, obviously, to have a liquid ran over it that is vaporized and inhaled.
Perhaps someone could contact Kanthal and ask an engineer or metallurgist there? This is their specialty.
I've said it before and I'll say it here. I have enough nic in cryostorage, attys and bulletproof mods to confidently say F the government. They will never stop this kid from vaping exactly how I want. What are they gonna do, seize my mod and test my unflavored nic base? Check my coils, make sure I have FDA approved attys?
Yes, I'm confident that product choices will be limited and expensive once the fear mongers, agenda pushers and good ol Uncle Sam really get involved. That'll screw it up for the new or the unprepared but anyone reading here should also be reading the writing on the wall.
I believe Vaping as we know it today is doomed by the interest of big tobacco and how far up the U.S. Governments ayuss their tongues ($$$) are. The shizz kids and are doing with clouds and stuff like that all over Instagram, Facebook and YT are not helping the cause. The blinking lit up pimp stick mods with the skulls do nothing but attract kids to vaping. Kids that probably have better sense than to smoke. "It's only water vapor" is what the average kid believes. Perfectly harmless. Like a flint stones chewable - only cooler - look at my vapor tornado. The media is more focused on fail than win and has ignorant people believing that vaping is just as bad if not worse than analogs.
Stock up, say I.
Yes, I'm confident that product choices will be limited and expensive once the fear mongers, agenda pushers and good ol Uncle Sam really get involved. That'll screw it up for the new or the unprepared but anyone reading here should also be reading the writing on the wall.
I believe Vaping as we know it today is doomed by the interest of big tobacco and how far up the U.S. Governments ayuss their tongues ($$$) are. The shizz kids and are doing with clouds and stuff like that all over Instagram, Facebook and YT are not helping the cause. The blinking lit up pimp stick mods with the skulls do nothing but attract kids to vaping. Kids that probably have better sense than to smoke. "It's only water vapor" is what the average kid believes. Perfectly harmless. Like a flint stones chewable - only cooler - look at my vapor tornado. The media is more focused on fail than win and has ignorant people believing that vaping is just as bad if not worse than analogs.
Stock up, say I.
Gawd that's one beautiful setup. Lucky basterd...
I know...Did you take that picture yourself? It's just stunning...
this is exactly how I feel about it. His warning sentences began with "suggest" and "advise" - not less, but also nothing more than that. He did not talk about studies about it, he recommendended something in a radio interview (not in a scientific paper). And given the fact that Dr. F. frequently talks about "minimizing the risks", I tend to take this recommendation for what it is: a potentially risk-minimizing recommendation from a very risk-conscious person, which is more than fine with me (given the fact that I don't have to stop vaping if I follow his advice).
Just remember how microcoils and glowing the coils (and for that matter: flavoring our liquids ;-) came into our vaping life. Somebody had an idea ... good or bad, we do it, without asking about health related or scientific details of that idea. And if Youtube guys stop white-red-glowing their wires for extended periods (and for that matter: if microcoils stop to be central to coil making what they not necessarily have to be) : I can live with that.
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I'm not sure which study you're referring to, but I do remember our discussion not long ago. Follow the link if you want to see the thread. We've been at it for quite sometime...
That's the problem. We don't know for sure. I've seen many speculations about possible dangers of chromium in kanthal...
We can't really compare Ni in gums (or food) to Ni in vapor--which we inhale directly into our lungs.
Imeo is using titanium wire (Ti) in his new device. Is that any better? I wish Dr. Farsalinos did a study comparing all kinds of wires used in our coils. I've seen a study where Cr and Ni levels were elevated in vapor, but they were still lower than Cr and Ni levels in ambient air.So, if you vape in Los Angeles, your e-cig vapor is cleaner than the air you breathe....
The Dangers of E-Cigarettes: Toxic Metals Exposed | E-Cigarette Forum
I'll take any opinion that is sound and backed by good science. I don't care where it comes from. "Because I say so" never worked for me--not since I turned 4 or 5, anyway. And so far, Dr. F, whom I respect and admire, hasn't offered any scientific explanation for his recommendations. On the contrary, he himself says that tests are needed because we really won't know until we test.
From here...
Dry-burning metal coils: is it a good thing?
Ummm, what? Dry burning their liquids? And here I thought he was talking about the coils.
Now I'm really cornfused...
I hear you Katya. Its just that I do "consider the source".
Last time Dr. F. had "concerns" about something, let's just go ahead and call it a hunch.....it ended up with testing eliquids for diacetyls. And to the surprise of many, over 70% contained it.
Since I wager on racehorses, I have come to learn what is and what is not a good "hunch" ----- and I'll put Dr. F. up there with the best of 'em. In other words, I'd take a hot tip from him.
I think you expressed how I feel.
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I agree, with a small modification for my own use
: I'll take any facts (i.e., something stated as a fact) backed by good science.
An opinion is just that, an opinion.
I hear you too, and I too do "consider the source," but try not to be influenced by it. I want information and I don't care where it's coming from if it's good and reliable. I'll take any well-conducted, peer-reviewed and reproducible study results from the NIH over an 'opinion' or a 'hunch' from our side.
He didn't really have a hunch. The issue of diacetyl (and dangerous 'aldehydes') in eliquid flavorings has been a huge topic of discussion on this forum from its inception. I remember Kate posting about diacetyl in 2008 or 2009, and I had conversations with Kurt about cinnamaldehyde in 2011:
Do you vape cinnamon flavors? Read this! | E-Cigarette Forum
I can't figure out how to do a search for the oldest posts on this platform--we had that feature before (one could search in ascending order). Never mind. Here's a thread from 2010--just look at the OP:
Starting a LIST of diacetyl-free ejuice suppliers. Please, keep to JUST listing the supplier names! | E-Cigarette Forum
The same is true for the wires and wicks--search the modders forums and you'll find a mile long threads about the safety of different alloys, wicking materials, polycarbonate, nickel-plated drip tips, and so on. Dr. F has been a blessing to our community because he actually started to do real research--and I'll be forever grateful. I hope he'll continue--we need more tests and more science. We have plenty of opinions already.
I agree, with a small modification for my own use
I'll take any facts (i.e., something stated as a fact) backed by good science.
An opinion is just that, an opinion.
Right, except he never indicated to us that he was just offering his "opinion." Rather, he quite emphatically stated:
"Do not overheat the coils. It's one of the worst things that you're doing is to burn the coil until it's getting red. ... It's the most disastrous things you are doing. Because when you are heating the metal to the point that it's getting, where it's glowing red you are basically destroying the bonds between the metal molecules and then you are greatly facilitating the emission of metals from the coil into the vapor. ... Period. Just by doing it once you are destroying the metal structure. You shouldn't do it. ... It's the worst thing that you are doing. You're completely destroying the metal structure."
Does this sound like an opinion to you?
Right, except he never indicated to us that he was just offering his "opinion." Rather, he quite emphatically stated:
"Do not overheat the coils. It's one of the worst things that you're doing is to burn the coil until it's getting red. ... It's the most disastrous things you are doing. Because when you are heating the metal to the point that it's getting, where it's glowing red you are basically destroying the bonds between the metal molecules and then you are greatly facilitating the emission of metals from the coil into the vapor. ... Period. Just by doing it once you are destroying the metal structure. You shouldn't do it. ... It's the worst thing that you are doing. You're completely destroying the metal structure."
Does this sound like an opinion to you?
Of course not, Katya, if we take this part of his communication. But I began reading at the first sentence
If you take only this part: yes, too much, especially considering his authority and the expectations he is confronted with.
But let's also consider that this was not even a publication - only a verbal recommendation. This is why, all in all, taken the whole context, maybe he exaggerated as to how to word a recommendation correctly, yes. And then, we exaggerated back
"WE" did not exaggerate. I've deleted further comments for propriety.Of course not, Katya, if we take this part of his communication. But I began reading at the first sentence
He misstated facts based on a completely erroneous interpretation
If you take only this part: yes, too much, especially considering his authority and the expectations he is confronted with.
But let's also consider that this was not even a publication - only a verbal recommendation. This is why, all in all, taken the whole context, maybe he exaggerated as to how to word a recommendation correctly, yes. And then, we exaggerated back
I'm referring to the USC study that is being discussed in the thread you linked. Keep in mind, though, that that is not the only study that detected heavy metals in e-cig vapor. It appears to be a real phenomenon.
Another study used a very janky looking cartomizer with a nichrome wire that was soldered to a silver coated copper wire. However, they did find nickel and chromium in the vapor (which is what nichrome is composed of) which suggests that there is some leeching of metals from the wire. The levels of the metals were similar to or exceeded cigarette smoke, so we can't merely brush it off as "background noise."
Another study found that vaping caused a 2-4 fold increase of aluminum in indoor air (Kanthal has aluminum in it).
Remember that heavy metals are cumulative, so there is really no "safe limit" for these metals as it's all about chronic exposure. The less the better. I am going to keep on vaping, though.
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