As confusing as it is, then what's up with their Nude Armor, Nude Armor v2 and v3?
It would seem like they know something.
Cutting 100mg Nic in half to 50mg, then storing. Good or Bad?
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As confusing as it is, then what's up with their Nude Armor, Nude Armor v2 and v3?
It would seem like they know something.
When diluting concentrated nic I consider a good mix to be priority 1. Second priority is not overdoing it. A better way might be a magnetic mixer scaled up to do a couple liters at a time but not all of us have this. The sad fact is that it isn't easy to mix very viscous liquids without adding some air. And I've never seen any titration tests proving a good shake actually does measurable harm.
Then, should the Nude Armor series be considered a gimmick?
P.S. your concerns are another argument to avoid diluting concentrated nic for long term storage. Diluting to 50ml just adds an additional unecessary mix and an additional chance to end up with a non-homogenous mix...
Agreed.
After rationalizing the initial $150 nic/pg/vg/shipping expense to the Mrs., frugality is my next major concern. So, intead of a mixing growler, the empty distilled water jug seems like a good idea; stirred, not shaken. lol.
Makes sense.
BTW - the nic/pv/vg has been stashed in the original box and put under the bed for the last 2 weeks until the amber rounds arrive on Monday. I just want to take time to make sure I don't screw this up.
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I've used quite some 48mg nic: mixed it with 15 parts vg/pg to get 3mg base. I also got some 72mg nic: mixed it with 23 parts vg/pg to get 3mg base. Most of my nic was 100mg: mixed it with 32 parts vg/pg to get ~3mg base. Not exactly the most complicated math ;-)
Why not give your nic-base a real good unopened shake/mix/stir to make sure the nic is well divided, and then poor it into 50ml glass bottles with really little headroom?
That way, everytime you take a 50ml bottle (probably a bit more if you use little headroom) out of the freezer, let it rest for a couple of hours to prevent flooding, shake it really well, and mix it with your desired amount of vg/pg. If you want 6mg base, mix it with 15.66 parts, that makes 833.33 ml base, which would take me almost two months to vape.
This leads into some other related issues. If you split the original liter into smaller long term storage bottles how do you know for sure it came to you well mixed? Should it be given a good shake or stir in that gallon jug before splitting it up? I tend to believe it is unlikely to have hot/cold spots by the time it gets to you but that in itself has seen some controversy here. Same issue when you remove any bottle from the freezer a year or more down the road. No total consensus on that. It's a good reason to consider buying a titration kit and checking nic before use.
That is one reason I don't mess much with my backup liters, leaving them in a one liter container for long term storage. I'll worry about all this 6 years from now after I exhaust my first liter that I did split up a bit. That first liter I shook well in a 2 liter Pepsi bottle, well cleaned, but later decided to use a distilled water jug if/when I do the next one, supposing I actually live that long and vaping doesn't kill me first (yes, some sarcasm there!)
My own reason not to break it into 20 bottles is freezer space. The more bottles the less efficient storage. If space were not an issue your idea has a lot of merit to me, having thought about it for some time now.
try not to overthink things too much ... as for nude nic, wizard labs, my freedom smokes, RTS etc. ... forget them.
you already found one of the very best in Vapers Tek ... when your boston rounds arrive, wash and let them dry them thoroughly.
shake the 1000ml well and fill one 500ml, put it in a ziplock bag, label, and pop it in the freezer ... then take two more bottles, fill them to half, top up with PG and shake well ... ziplock, label, and freeze those two.
I then break down one 500ml into 4x125 ml bottles ... label, and re-freeze.
I then break down one 125ml into 4x30 ml bottles ... label, and re-freeze.
therefore, I only ever have a 30ml bottle unfrozen for mixing.
rinse and repeat as you go through your stash.
Here's a tip I discovered for storing 120ml bottles (which hold 125ml if filled to 1/4" from the top)
(4) 120ml bottles fit into a small USPS flat rate box.
Gives them some more protection, and makes it easy to stack in the freezer.
2 boxes= 1 ltr
(4) 120ml bottles fit into a small USPS flat rate box.
Gives them some more protection, and makes it easy to stack in the freezer.
2 boxes= 1 ltr
That is approximately what I do, with a single 30ml bottle at room temp for working nic. A 30ml bottle lasts me about 2 months at my rate of use (appx 45mg/day).
I seriously doubt that shaking a 90%+ full bottle of PG or especially VG is going to accomplish much. It takes a lot of headroom to mix viscous liquids.
Yes you're probably right. Except i always buy PG nic-base, if i shake it really well for 10 minutes, it has become completely white. You could however divide 1 liter bit by bit over several smaller bottles, that probably will do.
Highly regarded supplier, for sure, but their "science" writing is, as was pointed out, quite convoluted and in my opinion reveals much to be desired in terms of understanding basic chemistry. And I doubt that the tiny amount of ascorbic acid added in their Armor line will do much to prevent long-term oxidation from air exposure. There is just not enough present for that, as far as I can tell. But people value details and peace of mind with their nic, so psychologically it might be beneficial. Chemically I don't see the point at all, and have some concerns.
Here is something I think they fail to understand about nic oxidation. In a closed 50 mL glass bottle of 100 mg/mL nic with 4 mL air headspace there is contained within, nothing to be done about it, enough O2 to react with 8 mg of nic. That's it. So if ALL of it reacts with nic, this will at most mean about 8 mg of nic will oxidize. Not 8 mg/mL, just 8 mg total, out of the 5000 mg of nic present. The cap might allow a bit of O2 over time, but very little, and then in the freezer the reaction rate goes to almost zero. Which means as long as O2 is kept out, a 100.00 mg/mL nic solution will become, at worst, a 99.84 mg/mL solution. This is well within the experimental error (.1 mg/mL precision is not really ever seen), so the 100. mg/mL solution is still 100. mg/mL. And the ascorbic acid added in their Armor line is just enough to prevent not even 8 mg of nic from oxidizing, maybe half of it. And you are inhaling ascorbic acid as well as its diketone oxidation product, neither of which we know about health wise. I think it is a foolish move on their part. They need to find out if inhaling asc acid or its oxidation products are safe. Citing ascorbic acid's use in food/drink preservation has nothing to do with inhalation, and they should know that. It might be fine, but it doesn't look like they explored it scientifically at all.
Another thing is chemical kinetics. Take 50 mL of a 100 mg/mL and a 24 mg/mL nic solution, same carrier liquid, and let them both sit out at room temperature in something more porous to O2, like LDPE. Wait for a given period of time, and measure the amount of nic-oxides in both solutions. The percent of nicotine oxidized will be about THE SAME for both, but total oxidized amount in the 100 mg/mL solution will be more than in the 24 mg/mL solution. This is because the rate is "first-order" in nic concentration, meaning that the half-life of the nicotine is a constant, that is, the time for half the nic to oxidize is the same for both solutions. 100 mg/mL will turn into 50 mg/mL in the SAME amount of time that 24 mg/mL will turn into 12 mg/mL. They might be aware of this chemistry, but comparing two different temperature conditions adds more complexity (very different reaction rates), and the underlying chemistry is lost on the reader. And everything slows down to a virtual standstill in the freezer.
Purging the headspace with N2 or Ar will keep all of about 7 mg of nic from oxidizing. That is it. Negligible, and adds expense. Again, this is not 7 mg/mL, this is 7 mg of nic total from a 4 mL headspace of air.
Diluting before freezing is ok, but there may be considerable space issues. PG-nic can oxidize faster, since it is more liquid in the freezer, but if it is in glass, this is largely moot if O2 can't get in. I do see faster oxidation of PG-nic in LDPE than VG-nic, however. But people are routinely getting years out of their PG-nic if it is in glass and in the freezer. I don't have much freezer/glass data for PG-nic, since I don't use it. But most PG-nic I have taken from the freezer after many months did not change. Some less-pure from 2009 did change.
Shaking a sealed bottle with a few mL of headspace to mix it is really NO different than just letting it sit, in terms of oxidation potential. You don't introduce more O2 by shaking, but it will take less time to react with all O2 inside. Stirring with a deep vortex (magnetic/mechanical stirring) in open air will introduce a lot more O2. Shaking in a sealed bottle, no.
UV (not visible light) catalyzes nic oxidation, but without O2 present, UV will not do anything, at least not UV from the sun. And glass blocks most UV anyway...well it turns it into heat energy which can raise the temperature (think closed car in summer), which will speed up oxidation, but again, no O2 means no oxidation.
If you want a long-term supply of nic, by high-nic, put it in glass and freeze it, leave a bit of headspace for possible expansion. It's what I have always done, with virtually perfect results after almost 7 years. No N2, Ar or ascorbic acid. Glass + freezer + headspace. Done. People are freaking out over minute quantities of O2, which at worst will lead to negligible oxidation, and paying top dollar for liquid treatments that cannot even mitigate more than a very minor amount of oxidation. But as I said, some feel calmer about their long-term prospects with overkill methods, and this "peace of mind" might be financially worth it to them. NudeNic won't mind that mentality, I'm sure.
If you want a long-term supply of nic, by high-nic, put it in glass and freeze it, leave a bit of headspace for possible expansion. It's what I have always done, with virtually perfect results after almost 7 years. No N2, Ar or ascorbic acid. Glass + freezer + headspace. Done. People are freaking out over minute quantities of O2, which at worst will lead to negligible oxidation, and paying top dollar for liquid treatments that cannot even mitigate more than a very minor amount of oxidation. But as I said, some feel calmer about their long-term prospects with overkill methods, and this "peace of mind" might be financially worth it to them. NudeNic won't mind that mentality, I'm sure.
That pretty much sums it up. Thanks Kurt!
Hi smacuser,
I had a conversation with @Kurt a couple of months ago about this exact abstract/article and we talked about this specific paragraph as well. He said to me that he has never experienced nicotine separation below concentrations of 250mg/mL in either VG or PG.
I also wrote a rather lengthy email to Nude Nicotine (sent to their company "contact" page) asking for clarification and they chose not to reply.
After about a week of back-and-forth emails with Kurt, I came away with the following understanding in regards to preserving nicotine:
-- Avoid oxygen. Use glass bottles as plastic will allow oxygen migration. Strive for LIMITED headspace (some IS required due to some liquid expansion when returning to room temperature)(if I am recalling correctly I think Kurt said about 1/4 of an inch from the top). Use a quality seal such as a poly-cone cap.
-- Avoid Light. Amber/blue bottles are best; though are mostly redundant when being stored in a dark place (like a freezer or closet).
-- Reduce storage temperature. This simply slows down the movement of the molecules. Colder is better hence storing in the freezer.
Beyond that; everything else is icing on the cake and will only provide minimal benefit (things like VG vs. PG, purging the headspace with an inert gas, sealing the caps with bands or wax, etc.).
If you prefer to work with more diluted levels of nic, and find it easier to dilute first, go for it. The only downside is it takes up more space. The only upside is your personal convenience.
As for mixing, I am a bit OCD about accuracy, so dumping into a large container and stirring doesn't appeal to MY sensibilities. Too many unaccounted variables. Product left clinging to the insides of the original containers effecting actual ratios, thoroughness of the mixing, introduction of unnecessary additional oxygen, and the like.
Instead, I would measure ingredients directly into each storage bottle, cap, shake, and store/freeze. That way I know what is in the bottle is my intended ratio. Then when I am ready to use: warm, shake again, and use. But again; that's just me.
Nicely stated Kurt your theory has been my thought all along since I've started freezing NIC back in 2013. My oldest stock of NIC is still as fresh, odorless and colorless as the day I froze it. My titration tests show negligible loss.
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Thanks @Kurt! I must type WAY TOO S L O W. Beat me to the punch again... <sigh>If you want a long-term supply of nic, by high-nic, put it in glass and freeze it, leave a bit of headspace for possible expansion. It's what I have always done, with virtually perfect results after almost 7 years. No N2, Ar or ascorbic acid. Glass + freezer + headspace. Done. People are freaking out over minute quantities of O2, which at worst will lead to negligible oxidation, and paying top dollar for liquid treatments that cannot even mitigate more than a very minor amount of oxidation. But as I said, some feel calmer about their long-term prospects with overkill methods, and this "peace of mind" might be financially worth it to them. NudeNic won't mind that mentality, I'm sure.
Thanks for chiming in!To everyone... Sorry for the redundancy.
Once again, if you follow Kurt's advice to minimize headspace to 1/4 inch or so, you are unlikely to accomplish much on the shake. And since the diluting solution is about the same color as the nic there are no visual clues of success. Assuming a clear container is even used; most of us use heavily tinted bottles.Instead, I would measure ingredients directly into each storage bottle, cap, shake, and store/freeze. That way I know what is in the bottle is my intended ratio. Then when I am ready to use: warm, shake again, and use. But again; that's just me.
This is a major fly in the ointment when trying to eliminate a larger secondary mixing container. And leads me to avoid mixing down for long term storage.
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