Cutting 100mg Nic in half to 50mg, then storing. Good or Bad?

[Kurt]

@IDJoel: no problem at all.

@VNeil Did I once say 1/4 inch headspace?? That is very small. For 50 mL Boston rounds, I fill to 1/2 the way where the bottle starts to taper in, which is about ~5 mL headspace. I don't dilute before storing, but this would be enough to shake-mix if you wanted to dilute it before filling. I would probably mix a large amount in something big, then fill the smaller bottles, and not worry about oxidation from air exposure as long as I was quick and didn't really froth it up.

Shaking the bottle you get from the vendor is not a bad idea if it is VG-nic. Might be some hot spots still. But the big vendors today are pretty careful about fully mixing their nics. I've not heard of hot spots in at least 5 years, even in VG-nic. Most add 5% water or more to their VG-nic to help mix it easier.

OT, but I personally happen to like what a bit of oxidation does to a nic. Adds TH, pepper and a bit of toasty tobacco notes. I understand this is a small minority preference. Most want an "invisible" nic, especially when making non-tobacco juices. But if it is colorless and "invisible" when you put it in the freezer in glass, it should be the same after a very long time indeed.

 

[57chilicat]

Hey guys! Does it matter if my nic base is 50/50, 70/30 or any other mix of pg and vg? I know that most of the premixed juices I vape are 50/50 and this will be my first time trying the diy!
My bottles are in but I want to place my NN order and not sure whether to get the 70/30 or 50/50.

 

[IDJoel]

@IDJoel: no problem at all.

@VNeil Did I once say 1/4 inch headspace?? That is very small. For 50 mL Boston rounds, I fill to 1/2 the way where the bottle starts to taper in, which is about ~5 mL headspace.

Sorry @Kurt; he may have been quoting my earlier comment:

(if I am recalling correctly I think Kurt said about 1/4 of an inch from the top).

That is what I get for trying to work from memory! Sorry for putting words in your mouth. And thank you for the correction/clarification.

 

[AzPlumber]

Hey guys! Does it matter if my nic base is 50/50, 70/30 or any other mix of pg and vg? I know that most of the premixed juices I vape are 50/50 and this will be my first time trying the diy!
My bottles are in but I want to place my NN order and not sure whether to get the 70/30 or 50/50.

Keep in mind that most flavorings are PG based and will increase the PG ratio of your final mix.

 

[VNeil]

@IDJoel: no problem at all.

@VNeil Did I once say 1/4 inch headspace?? That is very small. For 50 mL Boston rounds, I fill to 1/2 the way where the bottle starts to taper in, which is about ~5 mL headspace. I don't dilute before storing, but this would be enough to shake-mix if you wanted to dilute it before filling. I would probably mix a large amount in something big, then fill the smaller bottles, and not worry about oxidation from air exposure as long as I was quick and didn't really froth it up.

Shaking the bottle you get from the vendor is not a bad idea if it is VG-nic. Might be some hot spots still. But the big vendors today are pretty careful about fully mixing their nics. I've not heard of hot spots in at least 5 years, even in VG-nic. Most add 5% water or more to their VG-nic to help mix it easier.

OT, but I personally happen to like what a bit of oxidation does to a nic. Adds TH, pepper and a bit of toasty tobacco notes. I understand this is a small minority preference. Most want an "invisible" nic, especially when making non-tobacco juices. But if it is colorless and "invisible" when you put it in the freezer in glass, it should be the same after a very long time indeed.

Sorry Kurt I may have misspoken. In my case I do fill to within a quarter inch of the top and have not yet cracked a bottle. But that may not be good general advice? All of my freezer nic is 50/50.

I do have a question that is nagging me. How bad is HDPE for longer term storage? Your best WAG would be fine if you have no data or calculations.

Eta: The question assumes freezer storage and therefore slow reaction rate etc.

I left a liter of MFS nic with a friend for storage, me being freezer space challenged. I left it in the HDPE bottle because I was more concerned about the potential problems surrounding a broken liter bottle of nic than oxidation. So I'm trying to balance that type of trade-off.

 

[Alien Traveler]

Then, should the Nude Armor series be considered a gimmick?

Another thing is chemical kinetics. Take 50 mL of a 100 mg/mL and a 24 mg/mL nic solution, same carrier liquid, and let them both sit out at room temperature in something more porous to O2, like LDPE. Wait for a given period of time, and measure the amount of nic-oxides in both solutions. The percent of nicotine oxidized will be about THE SAME for both, but total oxidized amount in the 100 mg/mL solution will be more than in the 24 mg/mL solution. This is because the rate is "first-order" in nic concentration, meaning that the half-life of the nicotine is a constant, that is, the time for half the nic to oxidize is the same for both solutions. 100 mg/mL will turn into 50 mg/mL in the SAME amount of time that 24 mg/mL will turn into 12 mg/mL.

Here I disagree with you.
In my opinion speed (rate) of nic oxidation plays minor role. The bottleneck is speed of diffusion of O2 through bottle. Then amount of oxidized nic will depend on amount of O2 which diffused into bottles, and it is the same amount for both concentrations. Then percent of oxidized nic will be lower in bottle with higher nic concentration. So, it's better to store nic of high concentration, when plastic bottle is used for storage. For glass bottle there should be no difference.

 

[puffon]

Regarding expansion.
If the liquid is put in the bottle at room temp, frozen, then thawed to room temp, why would it expand any further than what it was originally, when put in the bottle?
I fill to about 1/4", sometimes less, never had a problem with overflowing/expanding when thawed.
Maybe the polycone cap is compressing?
I know water pipes will burst, because water expands when frozen, not from thawing.

 

[Kurt]

Sorry Kurt I may have misspoken. In my case I do fill to within a quarter inch of the top and have not yet cracked a bottle. But that may not be good general advice? All of my freezer nic is 50/50.

I do have a question that is nagging me. How bad is HDPE for longer term storage? Your best WAG would be fine if you have no data or calculations.

Eta: The question assumes freezer storage and therefore slow reaction rate etc.

I left a liter of MFS nic with a friend for storage, me being freezer space challenged. I left it in the HDPE bottle because I was more concerned about the potential problems surrounding a broken liter bottle of nic than oxidation. So I'm trying to balance that type of trade-off.

No worries. But cracking is not generally the issue, rather leaking from under the cap, at least in my experience. Never had a crack or break. My caps with euro inserts as gaskets are still not tight enough to allow a lot of pressure buildup inside the glass bottle. And expansion is from warming, not freezing, unlike water.

HDPE is not great for long-term storage, pretty porous, depending on the thickness. Better than LDPE, but not as good as PET, but then I'm not a fan of plasticizers. And your 50/50 will probably still be pretty liquid in the freezer (although I do not know for sure, never used that ratio), so you may not get a lot of time if you want no change, but again, I've no experience with this with 50/50. Short term you are probably ok, but the sooner you get it into glass the better. If you are hyper worried about ANY oxidation, that is. After a year it might be a bit more spicy!

 

[Kurt]

Regarding expansion.
If the liquid is put in the bottle at room temp, frozen, then thawed to room temp, why would it expand any further than what it was originally, when put in the bottle?
I fill to about 1/4", sometimes less, never had a problem with overflowing/expanding when thawed.
Maybe the polycone cap is compressing?
I know water pipes will burst, because water expands when frozen, not from thawing.

In principle, it wouldn't, but this assumes the temperature you filled the storage bottles is the same as the temperature you bring them out to. I once filled to the brim in a kitchen in January (about 60 F in the kitchen), then brought a bottle into my office without AC in about 100F heat of summer. They leaked from expansion compared to volume at 60F. Maybe a couple mL. So I keep a few mL headspace. The other issue is to keep the bottle upright when warming it back up...the air bubble will expand with heat far more than the liquid, and can force liquid to leak if the bottle is on its side. This is also common with filled tanks left in a hot car.

 

[puffon]

In principle, it wouldn't, but this assumes the temperature you filled the storage bottles is the same as the temperature you bring them out to. I once filled to the brim in a kitchen in January (about 60 F in the kitchen), then brought a bottle into my office without AC in about 100F heat of summer. They leaked from expansion compared to volume at 60F. Maybe a couple mL. So I keep a few mL headspace. The other issue is to keep the bottle upright when warming it back up...the air bubble will expand with heat far more than the liquid, and can force liquid to leak if the bottle is on its side. This is also common with filled tanks left in a hot car.

Ahh....That make sense.
Guess there is an advantage living in the constant 76deg AC, Florida environment.

 

[smacuser]

Use a quality seal such as a poly-cone cap.

Okay. I just opted for the standard caps from MFS; will my nic hold out until I get these poly-cone caps?

I can't find the post to reference that the LDPE lined caps might be crap, as well.

 

[WillyZee]

yes it will be fine until you get polycone caps.

 

[smacuser]

yes it will be fine until you get polycone caps.

Over thinking?

Where's a good place to order those plus a few more supplies, such as flavoring, to offset the shipping?

 

[smacuser]

Hey guys! Does it matter if my nic base is 50/50, 70/30 or any other mix of pg and vg? I know that most of the premixed juices I vape are 50/50 and this will be my first time trying the diy!
My bottles are in but I want to place my NN order and not sure whether to get the 70/30 or 50/50.

Hi chilicat,

I have no idea, but my best guess is whatever the base of the flavoring you will add will sway the percentage one way or the other; perhaps to an insignificant degree (unless it's 20%!).

Am I right?

 

[Lowjumper]

Where's a good place to order those plus a few more supplies, such as flavoring, to offset the shipping?

I get mine from Heartlandvapes, they also sell flavoring, bottles and nic.

Phenolic Cone Cap - 8oz (28mm)

 

[dannyv45]

Over thinking?

Where's a good place to order those plus a few more supplies, such as flavoring, to offset the shipping?

If it's just caps your looking for and need a lot of them you can get them here.

Caps & Closures - wholesalevials

 

[WillyZee]

For flavours and supplies ... Wizardlabs.us


Sent via iPhone

 

[Kurt]

Here I disagree with you.
In my opinion speed (rate) of nic oxidation plays minor role. The bottleneck is speed of diffusion of O2 through bottle. Then amount of oxidized nic will depend on amount of O2 which diffused into bottles, and it is the same amount for both concentrations. Then percent of oxidized nic will be lower in bottle with higher nic concentration. So, it's better to store nic of high concentration, when plastic bottle is used for storage. For glass bottle there should be no difference.

You know what? You make a very good point! The O2 diffusion rate through the bottle can compete with the oxidation rate. So its a bit more complicated than what I said previously, AND I did not consider something else: that for my scenario to show constant % of nic being oxidized between the two solutions, one would need an excess of O2 compared to the nic. So I must back-peddle a bit. The scenario of the two solutions, to get equal % oxidation over some given time, would be completely open (open beakers, same temperature, same carrier) in an oxygen rich environment. With constant stirring, too, so the surface was always replenished with unoxidized nic. If the plastic O2 diffusion is slow compared to nic reacting, then yes, this would be a bottle-neck.

Thank you for making me rethink this, Alien! Quite OT to the original question of the thread, but good for me to think about anyway.

But it gets back to this: store in glass, whatever the dilution, preferably in the freezer. Simple, works the best.

And there are many sources of good flavors: Ecig Express, Perfumers Apprentice, the German Flavors at VapersTek (great tobaccos!), FlavorArt, so many.

For mixing equipment, RTSVapes is good, as is Wizard Lab. Probably many other sites too, but I know these.

 

[puffon]

What are the thoughts on freezer temperature.
Would a temp of -15f be better than -4f?
Or would it have to be a cryogenic freezer temp, to see a difference?

 

[IDJoel]

What are the thoughts on freezer temperature.
Would a temp of -15f be better than -4f?
Or would it have to be a cryogenic freezer temp, to see a difference?

When I asked Kurt about this he said that a normal consumer model operating at 10 degrees Fahrenheit was all he uses. Colder might offer minor benefit but nothing to outweigh expense.