Mouth inhale safer for lungs?

[Archer74]

Without evidence of actual harm this is a solution in search of a problem. And a variation of "there must be something wrong with that". Standard ANTZ tactic. Why are you carrying their water?

Eta:. I guess aerobic exercise is equally harmful since that always results in large volumes of direct lung inhales. You might want to see how that plays in the jogging and exercise forums.

Because their tactics played a part in the recently released regulations that affects us all. We can't just keep answering "there is no actual evidence of harm". It's been said over and over that ecigs are at least 95% safer. Great percentage in favor of us. However, those ANTZ people do not care about that number. It's the 5% chance or less of something bad may happen that they latch on to. We have to address the possibilities to reduce the avenues they can use against us. No matter how narrow it may be it is one less thing for them to scream about and one more thing for us to make them shut up. batteries exploding and mods catching fire, we've seen this on media its a small percentage and part of that <5% but thats the ammo those people want to shed a bad light on a life saving device. We can't simply dismiss the water they are dumping on us no matter how ridiculous it may be.

Take the example you just gave. It is true and are correct, I understand your point. However, the major difference between aerobics and vaping is that during exercise you are not taking in lung fulls of vapor saturated air. No big deal to us and its better that toxic cigarette smoke, right? But they can make that sound bad. So, we vaporize a liquid and inhale it. Like all vaporized liquids it eventually condenses back to its original state. Depending on the PG/VG ratio its viscosity varies and sticks or coats our respiratory tract. Anyone who vapes in a car knows about that haze forming on their windows - same thing. Ever notice the air smells better after rain? Rain and snow have a "seed" particle, a substance they need to coalesce such as dust/air pollution. Now for vapor, this may happen. dust taken in helps vapor condense easier and form a tiny layer over our respiratory lining. Does it affect gas exchange in our lungs? Does the layer accumulate and how fast does it accumulate? Can the body "shrug" it off and get rid of it fast enough? Will it adversely affect the cilia over time? We just can ignore and answer "there is no evidence of this". To a non-vaper this sounds logical and presented in a negative way and omitting certain truths it will sound scary. We know the truth and we know our choice is sound. But ANTZ will scream with the smallest of reasons and when they can't make a logical reason... "What about the children" comes out of their mouths.

 

[Imfallen_Angel]

It's sad that these types of questions come in over and over...

I've yet to see a single "study" that wasn't biased (against) and engineered to made vaping look bad to a varying degree.

What it comes down to, the "basic" claim now is that it's at least 95% better than cigarettes, but that 5% is nothing but a buffer for the "we're not sure".

This 5% could mean anywhere from the full 5%, or it could be 0.0000001% bad for you, so far the research have been showing the odds are closer to the 0.X than even a single digit.

Vaping has been around for a good 10 years now, and yet to have a single true report of anything bad. The only "bad" is people being more sensitive to PG, or other bad situation that aren't due to vaping but bad products (silica wicks that would break off some particles that are inhalable) and bad usage (dry hits and such).

Note that VG and PC have been tested for a very long time (not a single bad report about them, they are extremely neutral products) and has been used in food and medical items for decades now.

As far as mouth to lung or direct lung, if there's anything bad, it's going in regardless. Personally I never understood the MTL thing, I have always DL for anything I did and never had issues.

Coughing wise, something with too much nicotine will kick in your throat, that's a given, just too much hit, as nicotine is an irritant.

Lung "damage" wise and "coating/film... sorry but unless you're vaping oils and crap, VG, PG and flavouring is easily absorbed and doesn't leave any of these coating/films that some people tend to have gulped some kool-aid about it instead of actual science and biology.

You are getting thousands of pollutants from plain smog/polution/car exhaust just walking down a street in a day that vaping would never match, and yet, our lungs aren't coated with this pollution film either.

 

[AXIOM_1]

Give up smoking and vaping, it's baaaaaad for you. Buy nicotine base and spread it on your arms so that it soaks in...and start wearing an N95 Mask.

lol

 

[Archer74]

It's sad that these types of questions come in over and over...

I've yet to see a single "study" that wasn't biased (against) and engineered to made vaping look bad to a varying degree.

What it comes down to, the "basic" claim now is that it's at least 95% better than cigarettes, but that 5% is nothing but a buffer for the "we're not sure".

This 5% could mean anywhere from the full 5%, or it could be 0.0000001% bad for you, so far the research have been showing the odds are closer to the 0.X than even a single digit.

Vaping has been around for a good 10 years now, and yet to have a single true report of anything bad. The only "bad" is people being more sensitive to PG, or other bad situation that aren't due to vaping but bad products (silica wicks that would break off some particles that are inhalable) and bad usage (dry hits and such).

Note that VG and PC have been tested for a very long time (not a single bad report about them, they are extremely neutral products) and has been used in food and medical items for decades now.

As far as mouth to lung or direct lung, if there's anything bad, it's going in regardless. Personally I never understood the MTL thing, I have always DL for anything I did and never had issues.

Coughing wise, something with too much nicotine will kick in your throat, that's a given, just too much hit, as nicotine is an irritant.

Lung "damage" wise and "coating/film... sorry but unless you're vaping oils and crap, VG, PG and flavouring is easily absorbed and doesn't leave any of these coating/films that some people tend to have gulped some kool-aid about it instead of actual science and biology.

You are getting thousands of pollutants from plain smog/polution/car exhaust just walking down a street in a day that vaping would never match, and yet, our lungs aren't coated with this pollution film either.

That is down right true. You know that, I know that, we as vapers know that. But the general non vaping public isn't aware of the truths that propaganda is hiding. Those mongers always place a bad spin on any "non positive" effect. Take the examples you cited as bad. PG sensitivity can easily be blown up to imply asthma attack, silica wicks can be sounded to equate to fiberglass. What I'm saying is that their claims have to be rebutted by facts and not just success stories.

On a few occasions of my heavy vaping "sessions" with 95% VG 5%flavor 0nic dislodged/coughed up vaping "residue". But those instances were extreme as I was practically breathing through my tank . So it can happen under certain circumstances. But under normal vaping it never happened.

Flavoring has always made me wonder though. Easily absorbed, yes, after being ingested through the digestive tract. An organ system specifically structured and made up of specialized cells to absorb food after after being processed by digestion. Respiratory system, totally made for something else. Our lung system has specialized cells to deal with most naturally occurring particles/pollutants. Coughing is a natural reflex built in to react to irritants and large foreign particles. It has processes to deal with particles we breathe in. But flavoring, it has no choice but to deal with it. So, what does happen when you make a cell process something it's not designed to? Can it absorb flavoring? Apparently so, but at what cost? We don't know yet.

 

[Imfallen_Angel]

That is down right true. You know that, I know that, we as vapers know that. But the general non vaping public isn't aware of the truths that propaganda is hiding. Those mongers always place a bad spin on any "non positive" effect. Take the examples you cited as bad. PG sensitivity can easily be blown up to imply asthma attack, silica wicks can be sounded to equate to fiberglass. What I'm saying is that their claims have to be rebutted by facts and not just success stories.

On a few occasions of my heavy vaping "sessions" with 95% VG 5%flavor 0nic dislodged/coughed up vaping "residue". But those instances were extreme as I was practically breathing through my tank . So it can happen under certain circumstances. But under normal vaping it never happened.

Flavoring has always made me wonder though. Easily absorbed, yes, after being ingested through the digestive tract. An organ system specifically structured and made up of specialized cells to absorb food after after being processed by digestion. Respiratory system, totally made for something else. Our lung system has specialized cells to deal with most naturally occurring particles/pollutants. Coughing is a natural reflex built in to react to irritants and large foreign particles. It has processes to deal with particles we breathe in. But flavoring, it has no choice but to deal with it. So, what does happen when you make a cell process something it's not designed to? Can it absorb flavoring? Apparently so, but at what cost? We don't know yet.

All the decent flavouring are water soluble, and end up in the system pretty much the same as through the digestive track and no worse than the thousands of pollutants, irritants, pollen, allergens, airborne particles, etc. that we breathe in constantly.

I've stated in threads that I started getting into the vaping world due to my wife that couldn't kick smoking by any other means. Trouble is, she has MS, an immune ailment that triggers an over-responsive from her cells, which attacks her normal cells. Should something cause this reaction to occur, smoking did on a regular basis (and why it was important to get her off of it), it's a fairly bad thing. Since she's been vaping, her attacks have been less severe and frequent, she's had maybe 2-3 lung infections in about 8 years, opposed to 4-5 per year before.

So just her health, as a barometer to the difference between smoking and vaping, but also, as part of a messed up immune system response, has shown positive results here.

Now, I'm not saying that this is an absolute and conclusive answer, but from my experience, this does show how vaping has affected someone that would have been extremely at risk should vaping have negative impacts. The truth is, so far, after over 8 years, it's been 100% positive.

And for your coughing session, unless analyzed, might contain more phlegm and other substances than VG, and probably more from the throat than the lungs. But it's like anything... like too much di-hydrogen monoxide will kill you too.

 

[retired1]

Moved to Health, Safety and Vaping

 

[Alien Traveler]

All the decent flavouring are water soluble,

No, you are wrong. A lot of them (for example raspberry flavor) are not water soluble, and because of it PG and alcohol are widely used.

 

[Steamix]

I was being a bit tongue in cheek, but I meant that it is still maybe not insignificantly detrimental. I suspect it'll be years before we have a solid answer, but I want to make as informed a choice as I can. I've made a lot of bad choices in my life but you can't go through life being afraid of everything...

Of course, nothing beats a study that keeps track of a sufficient number of vapers for years, even decades and their health.

However, careful and especially unbiased extrapolation like the RCP did in their report is perfectly legit.

Have to keep in mind that the science needed to do science hasn't stood.

Today, researchers can count and juggle single molecules, can run their models on high powered mainframes.
Back in the sixties, when the RCP published that report about the bad boy on the block ( i.e. tobacco ) computers occupied buildings instead of shirtpockets or purses, and mucking around in the nanogram ranges was science fiction.

Mean to say that nowadays they got a lot more and better tools in their box to wager an educated guess.

Factor in that PG and VG have been around for decades. Every time you slap a glob of cream or bodylotion onto your hide, a small quantity of it evaporates from your body heat alone and finds its way into your lungs.
Nowhere near what a good puff puts into your system, but decades and generations of exposure to these ubiquitous products whould have rang some alarms by now.

Totally harmless? Definetely not.
What remains is shaving numbers. Percentage points don't matter - as long as they better than tobacco, I'm ahead in the game. Yep, never-vapers/never-smokers might be a few steps ahead of vapers in that race, but vaping community sure won't mind, especially if their backsides are nice to behold

 

[Imfallen_Angel]

No, you are wrong. A lot of them (for example raspberry flavor) are not water soluble, and because of it PG and alcohol are widely used.

Let's see, quoting from either their sites or online info/searches:
1)"Welcome to CapellaFlavors.com,
your trusted source of exquisite and true flavor.
Our highly concentrated, water soluble, multi-use flavorings are the finest and most unique, natural flavoring drops on the market."

2) Water Soluble Flavoring - Flavor West
flavorwest.com/index.php/water-soluble-flavoring.html
Water Soluble Flavoring. ... Fireball Type. $0.00. Flavor Toner/Enhancer. Add to Cart. Quick View · Flavor Toner/Enhance... $0.00. French Vanilla. Add to Cart.

3) Perfumer's Apprentice
Water soluble means that a flavor will dissolve into water, or propylene glycol, or other mediums that are not oils.
(perfumers apprentice water soluble - Google Search)

Loraan
Makes both oils and water soluble flavour concentrates, only the water soluble ones are (or should be) sold from vaping DIY stores.


and so on.. oil base do NOT dissolve in PG, it's the water based ones that do....


I think I've make my point....

 

[Alien Traveler]

Let's see, quoting from either their sites or online info/searches:
1)"Welcome to CapellaFlavors.com,
your trusted source of exquisite and true flavor.
Our highly concentrated, water soluble, multi-use flavorings are the finest and most unique, natural flavoring drops on the market."

2) Water Soluble Flavoring - Flavor West
flavorwest.com/index.php/water-soluble-flavoring.html
Water Soluble Flavoring. ... Fireball Type. $0.00. Flavor Toner/Enhancer. Add to Cart. Quick View · Flavor Toner/Enhance... $0.00. French Vanilla. Add to Cart.

3) Perfumer's Apprentice
Water soluble means that a flavor will dissolve into water, or propylene glycol, or other mediums that are not oils.
(perfumers apprentice water soluble - Google Search)

Loraan
Makes both oils and water soluble flavour concentrates, only the water soluble ones are (or should be) sold from vaping DIY stores.


and so on.. oil base do NOT dissolve in PG, it's the water based ones that do....


I think I've make my point....

It is called marketing.
In reality: non water soluble flavorings are sold in PG and/or alcohol base. After flavoring is dissolved in a base, it can be mixed with water.

 

[Imfallen_Angel]

It is called marketing.
In reality: non water soluble flavorings are sold in PG and/or alcohol base. After flavoring is dissolved in a base, it can be mixed with water.

And your sources are?

 

[Alien Traveler]

And your sources are?

General knowledge.
If you are interested in some flavor, you have to search net.
Example for raspberry flavor:
Water solubility INSOLUBLE
http://www.mu-intel.com/upload/msds/20130816044120.pdf

 

[Imfallen_Angel]

General knowledge.
If you are interested in some flavor, you have to search net.
Example for raspberry flavor:
Water solubility INSOLUBLE
http://www.mu-intel.com/upload/msds/20130816044120.pdf

I ain't downloading a PDF, sorry... to many malware out there.

And you're just a glutton for punishment....

Raspberry Flavor Concentrate 13ml
Raspberry Flavor Concentrate

Raspberry v2 Flavor Concentrate 13ml
Raspberry v2 Flavor Concentrate

BOTH:
Capella Flavor Drops are water soluble, highly concentrated, multi-purpose flavoring.

"General Knowledge" is your source? Seriously? So far, you are the only person I've seen make these claims.

How about more?

Raspberry (Red) Flavoring - Bickford Flavors
Raspberry Flavoring - Bickford Flavors

So they are lying too?

How about this one?
Perfumers Apprentice - Raspberry Flavor

Or this one?
Blue Raspberry Flavor Concentrate by TFA (0.27oz)

Or this one?
FLAVOR LIST - Northwestern Extract Co.

Anyways... I'm done.

 

[VNeil]

General knowledge.
If you are interested in some flavor, you have to search net.
Example for raspberry flavor:
Water solubility INSOLUBLE
http://www.mu-intel.com/upload/msds/20130816044120.pdf

And what eliquid related flavoring is that compound used in?

 

[Alien Traveler]

And what eliquid related flavoring is that compound used in?

Any raspberry flavored juice.

 

[VNeil]

Any raspberry flavored juice.

Can you name one that indicates it's NOT water soluble? You may have difficulty doing that.

 

[Alien Traveler]

I said already all I wanted to say. I retire from this thread.
Just remember - a lot of flavoring are not water soluble. They should be dissolved in other solvents before adding to water.

 

[VNeil]

I said already all I wanted to say. I retire from this thread.
Just remember - a lot of flavoring are not water soluble. They should be dissolved in other solvents before adding to water.

You continue to insist on that but refuse to name even one in common use for eLiquid DIY....

BTW, that MSDS claimed the Raspberry compound was not water soluble. It also states "Acute toxicity, Oral", and other warnings about ingestion, which is quite strange for something intended as a GRAS food flavoring. So it's quite difficult to take that MSDS at face value.

 

[Archer74]

All the decent flavouring are water soluble, and end up in the system pretty much the same as through the digestive track and no worse than the thousands of pollutants, irritants, pollen, allergens, airborne particles, etc. that we breathe in constantly.

I've stated in threads that I started getting into the vaping world due to my wife that couldn't kick smoking by any other means. Trouble is, she has MS, an immune ailment that triggers an over-responsive from her cells, which attacks her normal cells. Should something cause this reaction to occur, smoking did on a regular basis (and why it was important to get her off of it), it's a fairly bad thing. Since she's been vaping, her attacks have been less severe and frequent, she's had maybe 2-3 lung infections in about 8 years, opposed to 4-5 per year before.

So just her health, as a barometer to the difference between smoking and vaping, but also, as part of a messed up immune system response, has shown positive results here.

Now, I'm not saying that this is an absolute and conclusive answer, but from my experience, this does show how vaping has affected someone that would have been extremely at risk should vaping have negative impacts. The truth is, so far, after over 8 years, it's been 100% positive.

And for your coughing session, unless analyzed, might contain more phlegm and other substances than VG, and probably more from the throat than the lungs. But it's like anything... like too much di-hydrogen monoxide will kill you too.

It is not a question of miscibility. It's a question of its interaction with a system that is not designed to interact with. MS is a CNS disease and not a respiratory ailment. SLE is an autoimmune disease that attacks any organ system. However, the stress that MS exerts on the body compounded by smoking toxicity does affect the body as a whole. That is a great statistical point. One case is not enough and we need to gather as much of these cases to have a larger sample that shows the benefits of our choice.

Phlegm is a term to describe a larger than normal amount of mucus. Mucus lines the surface of orifices and has several functions, of which, two are pertinent. It is a barrier and a cleanser which traps and accumulates particulates and irritants for expulsion. More irritants/particulates, more mucus is produced hence phlegm. Since my bouts of expectoration coincides with my occasional insane vaping sessions it is not unreasonable for me to form my hypothesis.

I learned chemical nomenclature in high school. I was stunned at how many people actually fell for it. My thought was that these people never paid attention to chemistry class. But then again, we aren't fish.

 

[Imfallen_Angel]

It is not a question of miscibility. It's a question of its interaction with a system that is not designed to interact with. MS is a CNS disease and not a respiratory ailment. SLE is an autoimmune disease that attacks any organ system. However, the stress that MS exerts on the body compounded by smoking toxicity does affect the body as a whole. That is a great statistical point. One case is not enough and we need to gather as much of these cases to have a larger sample that shows the benefits of our choice.

Phlegm is a term to describe a larger than normal amount of mucus. Mucus lines the surface of orifices and has several functions, of which, two are pertinent. It is a barrier and a cleanser which traps and accumulates particulates and irritants for expulsion. More irritants/particulates, more mucus is produced hence phlegm. Since my bouts of expectoration coincides with my occasional insane vaping sessions it is not unreasonable for me to form my hypothesis.

I learned chemical nomenclature in high school. I was stunned at how many people actually fell for it. My thought was that these people never paid attention to chemistry class. But then again, we aren't fish.

You're missing my point.. our system is used to deal with a LOT of inhaled pollutant that are actually really bad... dust, pollen, other particles... it takes working under extreme condition to have something overtake our system (mining, firefighter, factory worker in unsafe environment, etc.)

And I didn't deny that you vaping like a madman didn't cause your issues, you overdid it severely, and the same would happen if you abused just about anything. Your body reacted in kind, forced a mucus barrier and you coughed it out, barrier and everything that it held within.

I'm not even touching that high school thing.