Thanks had aWater freezers but a mixture of water and VG (or PG) won't. Both VG and PG have good "antifreeze" properties when mixed with water.
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Nicotine Comparisons
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Distilled Water enhances workability of Vegetable Glycerin. What drawbacks are there to moderate amounts of DW in VG?
My thoughts are if enough DW is added it could affect the final mixture for DIY.
DW also vaporizes at a lower temp, vaporizing first and leaves VG behind. That's a new concept for me but it's a reason some like to limit the amount of DW in their mixes.
I use 10% DW in my final mixes. The wicking and flavor is fantastic. When I crave 100% VG I'll use 20% DW. Seems to vaporize at the same time for me.
For long-term storage one might speculate that a VG/Water mixture might hold a lot more oxygen in solution than straight VG and would thus increase the rate of oxidation.
For current/immediate there's probably no drawback IF your recipe calls for water AND you can properly account for it (which would require the vendor to tell you it's there and in what proportion. ;-)
I limit water in my mix as much as possible. Water will vaporize before VG and can cause more popping at the coil as the water will boil out of solution.
Needing water to mix VG nic is really a vendor cop out. What they need is better equipment and longer time on the mixer. The crappier thier equipment the more water they add.
In my experience more water in VG nic does cause it to spoil faster. Every watery vg nic i have recieved has gone rancid much sooner than others. Water reduces shelf life of nic, rossum I think is on the right track. It oxidizes the nic faster.
Why would I want them to send me nic with water that will not last half as long as other NICs, with little to no water, on the shelf.
Needing water to mix VG nic is really a vendor cop out. What they need is better equipment and longer time on the mixer. The crappier thier equipment the more water they add.
In my experience more water in VG nic does cause it to spoil faster. Every watery vg nic i have recieved has gone rancid much sooner than others. Water reduces shelf life of nic, rossum I think is on the right track. It oxidizes the nic faster.
Why would I want them to send me nic with water that will not last half as long as other NICs, with little to no water, on the shelf.
Nude Nic on Reddit went into a lengthy explaination on water in VG vaporizing first leaving the heavier VG behind. That was something I hadn't thought about. I kinda wish there was a specific thread for mixing with VG because it seems like there's a lot of difference.
Annahydrous VG should contain no more than .5% water when its produced.
Water steams before VG vaporizes that's a fact. We've got into it in a couple vg threads here but nothing exclusive.
Contrary to popular connotations, I actually find water can negatively effect my flavoring.
Water steams before VG vaporizes that's a fact. We've got into it in a couple vg threads here but nothing exclusive.
Contrary to popular connotations, I actually find water can negatively effect my flavoring.
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Interesting. I'd always heard DW was a better flavor carrier than VG (but of course it depends on the base used in the flavor / concentrate too). Except for triacetin, the rest are considered water soluable but this is getting off topic.
That may have something to do with it if they dilute more into the water you don't get as even of a flavor burn... Of course its against what many say but its what it seems like to me. I do vape 100vg with as little water as needed durning winter, and actually considering 10% pg instead..
One time I used RO water and I swear it ate up my flavoring big time. Distilled is similar. So DW in nic could take some flavor away from the nic also, that's my theory at least.
RO and distilled water are stripped waters that arent healthy to drink because of the complete lack of minerals and acidic nature. Water will try to balance itself by pulling in whatever it can, in the human body it can pull minerals from the body itself.
One time I used RO water and I swear it ate up my flavoring big time. Distilled is similar. So DW in nic could take some flavor away from the nic also, that's my theory at least.
RO and distilled water are stripped waters that arent healthy to drink because of the complete lack of minerals and acidic nature. Water will try to balance itself by pulling in whatever it can, in the human body it can pull minerals from the body itself.
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I don't agree with that statement on water. I drink exclusively distilled / RO. VG is a humectrant and that will pull into itself. VG is challenging to mix because it's thick = longer steep times. I've also heard (no research yet) of people using gas infusers to get a stronger bond. We need a VG thread.
That was from a nutrition/health standpoint as a main water source. The comment was a little extream for the contexts here, this isnt a health forum... Sure you can drink it, I know, its not exactly unfit, but its not exactly that good for you, its demineralized.. Its quite different from say spring water or ground water.
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How about rain water or pure grain alcohol?
(sorry, couldn't resist)
... have you ever seen a Commie drink a glass of water?
That was such an awesome movie.
A water-VG solution is what is known as a miscible binary mixture. A 10% H2O: 90% VG solution will boil at around 140C, and the vapor content is about 90% water, 10% VG. So overall, yes, the water vaporizes faster than the VG. This would also be true for volatile flavor compounds, but quantitatively this is much more complicated to calculate, since there are 1000s of flavor compounds, each with their own BP.
Thus in my 4.5 mL Kayfun tank-atty, I have found that if I fill it with flavored liquid, the flavor falls off with time, and the liquid gets thicker and less able to wick well.
So for that atty, I use extra water for an unflavored VG-juice, maybe 25%, and I fill the tank with that. This gives a good unflavored vape in the Kayfun, about 16W. And if I want a flavor, I DRIP about 8-10 drops from a needle-tipped bottle (small drops) directly down the drip tip. Now I have a flavored vape that does not leak MOST of the time (too much dripping in the kayfun will leak), and after several puffs it goes back to unflavored...and I can drip another flavor if I want with little residual previous flavor. The key I find is to have a constant flow of pretty thinned unflavored, with flavor when I want through dripping a flavored juice, which can be as thick as I want, since now wicking from the tank is moot.
This has really worked for me with VG-juices at 1 ohm in the Kayfun (26 ga Kanthal, organic cotton).
Thus in my 4.5 mL Kayfun tank-atty, I have found that if I fill it with flavored liquid, the flavor falls off with time, and the liquid gets thicker and less able to wick well.
So for that atty, I use extra water for an unflavored VG-juice, maybe 25%, and I fill the tank with that. This gives a good unflavored vape in the Kayfun, about 16W. And if I want a flavor, I DRIP about 8-10 drops from a needle-tipped bottle (small drops) directly down the drip tip. Now I have a flavored vape that does not leak MOST of the time (too much dripping in the kayfun will leak), and after several puffs it goes back to unflavored...and I can drip another flavor if I want with little residual previous flavor. The key I find is to have a constant flow of pretty thinned unflavored, with flavor when I want through dripping a flavored juice, which can be as thick as I want, since now wicking from the tank is moot.
This has really worked for me with VG-juices at 1 ohm in the Kayfun (26 ga Kanthal, organic cotton).
Maybe this is why I like bottom feeders. I find them easier to adjust for thick VG. I also live in an area of high heat which sounds like keeps it thinner.
Kurt, could you tell us anything about the ability of such miscible mixtures ability to hold dissolved oxygen vs. pure VG or pure PG?
A lot of us are interested in nic for long-term storage purposes, naturally in a dark freezer, in well-sealed glass bottles. Under those conditions, it seems to me that one would want to minimize the amount of dissolved oxygen available in the carrier solvent, and my gut tells me water (even at 10%) will hold a lot more oxygen in solution than pure VG or pure PG would...?
In light of the above, are there other plausible, reasonable ways to increase the workability and wicking of Vegetable Glycerin short of heat?
Turns out this is a difficult question to answer. O2 solubilities in PG or VG depend on temperature, and results from different studies even at similar temperatures are divergent. In general, it appears that O2 is less soluble in these compared to water (7.6 mg·L−1 at 20C) because O2 solubility falls off in water and VG or PG solutions as the %VG or %PG increases. Hard to say which one, PG or VG, is lower than the other. But it seems introducing water will increase the natural solubility of O2 in PG or VG.
Then there is the flip side: actual reaction of O2 with nicotine. Temperature and viscosity both play a role in this. The thicker and colder the liquid is, the slower dissolved O2 will react with nicotine.
So I store my VG-nic in the freezer as unthinned with water as possible. Generally as it is sent to me. I generally do not make a diluted liquid and then freezer store it...but if I did, it would probably not oxidize much, but then I don't have multi-year data on that. I store in 30-50 mL glass bottles, and have one or two out at a given time for making my DIY liquids. Even at room temp, the unthinned VG-nic does not oxidize much at all for weeks that I have seen. Thinned goes faster, and in plastic bottles faster yet. But even then it is still relatively slow. I have a 12 mg VT TH unflavored liquid in a 60 mL LDPE bottle that has been out for a month, at least, and has not colored that I can detect. Also, from what I have seen, flavors tend to increase rates of oxidation, and I think most have also observed that. Could be a mobility/viscosity thing, could be a flavor compound or several catalyze the reaction, or not, rather only create a new color of the oxide that would otherwise be yellow. Just my own theory of why some juices, like vanillas, sometimes go pink.
Bottom line, I think thicker is better for long-term freezer storage, but I think the freezer part is more important overall than the thicker part. Dry is pretty moot if the bottles are sealed, but glass is very important. I would probably vacuum seal my bottles if I had a sealer and the additional room in the freezer needed to store bottles wrapped in thick plastic. But it is not a priority to me at all, since I have yet to see any change in my glass-stored nic for 5.5 years now. And I don't expect to see any change. Most is unthinned VG-nic, some has up to 12% water.
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