Nicotine Comparisons

[Jimi D.]

I have a question for a friend - they buy from Liberty Flight and their 54mg nic comes in as an orange/brownish color - is this ok?

If my order arrived with oxidation. I wouldn't be very happy about it. It's 2015. Nic should arrive clear.

 

[aikanae1]

The one's I have seen, yes. They were told by NN to shake it well. This wasn't a satisfactory answer to them because they claim they did that.

I guess this could happen with any nic vendor, though. I suppose it's wise for people who are concerned to do their own titration tests. They may not be as accurate as what a professional lab can do, but such tests will let you know if the nic concentration is way out of range.

That happened awhile ago. Titration tests aren't specific and can be contanimated. I went back to the original post with NN and they reported an independent testing showing correct nic amount (replaced the batch first). This was one batch in question. Then later, on their website, NN mentioned a change in their process to avoid that from happening again (they also sent an email out). I honestly don't know exactly what happened or who was at fault. I suspect several things happened.

What I did learn was how difficult it is to mix nic with VG and to avoid hot spots. I didn't realize nic settled as much as it appears to. NN did replace the nic, it did appear to be one batch in question and (imo) there seems to be some with an agenda about NN (I got some pm's with a range of complaints and I've said more here). Earlier this year, a number of juice vendors listed where they got their nic and I was surprised how many got nic from NN. If they were so bad, I have a hard time believing they'd have the wholesale accts they do.

It is what it is and everyone makes up their own mind. The person who raised the alarm is an experienced DIY'er on Reddit, so I'm reluctant to blow off their concerns. The nic in question wasn't so far off that when diluted it would have caused anyone serious harm. I'm not aware of more than one batch in question.

 

[aikanae1]

Has anyone tried Solan Industries for nic? They are local (AZ) and so I'm curious. They mentioned they offered samples. I've got an email in to them to find out.

Solan Industries LLC

 

[Cool_Breeze]

Is the Throat Hit version of a nicotine base thought or known to be any less pure or otherwise lesser is some respect (other than cost) than the regular nicotine offered by the same vendor?

 

[Dixie1954]

I use my 100mg nic in all PG and have never had any trouble with the NN nic I do understand just from looking at the VG how it could have problems mixing with the nic though. I always slightly shake my mixed up nic base before using with a flavoring - just a habit of mine. I do the same with flavorings before using, some of them can settle even though they are clear to the eye.

 

[aikanae1]

Is the Throat Hit version of a nicotine base thought or known to be any less pure or otherwise lesser is some respect (other than cost) than the regular nicotine offered by the same vendor?

Not less pure. Usually Throat Hit version (like Vapor Tek) has been oxidized to give it more throat hit since some people like that. Sometimes "oxidized" nic also means it's been sitting around, old, exposed to light / air, improperly stored and may have more taste, possibly less potency - but not always. Taste is subjective.

 

[Rossum]

I'm having a hard time with the idea that the TH nic is the same as the premium nic, just intentionally oxidized some. If that were the case, the TH nic should be priced the same or even a bit more than the premium stuff, but it's not. The premium nic costs double or more than the TH nic.

 

[440BB]

Perhaps it's a few less purification steps to make the TH nic, resulting in lower cost?

 

[aikanae1]

I'm having a hard time with the idea that the TH nic is the same as the premium nic, just intentionally oxidized some. If that were the case, the TH nic should be priced the same or even a bit more than the premium stuff, but it's not. The premium nic costs double or more than the TH nic.

It doesn't make sense to me either but that's what has been posted by VT and I am clueless about nic processing. VT is a good vendor so I'm not in a position to argue. They have a thread here on ECF.

It seems like their original nic goes through an extra filtration process, maybe they skip that?

 

[Kurt]

You would have to ask Kevin about why TH is lower cost. Might be a simple price and demand thing. Completely neutral nic seems to be more popular than a peppery nic.

As far as purity or nic level, nic-oxide level needed to have a noticeable difference in TH/pepper is very low, and probably within the experimental uncertainty of the nic level test. For example, suppose the uncertainty in nic is +/- 5%. If 5% of the nicotine oxidized this would be a strongly colored liquid with a LOT of taste and smell. It would probably be orange-brown. VT TH is probably much less than 1% oxidized. So within the experimental error for nic determination, there is no difference compared to non-TH VT.

 

[billherbst]

You would have to ask Kevin about why TH is lower cost. Might be a simple price and demand thing. Completely neutral nic seems to be more popular than a peppery nic.

If I recall correctly, Kevin told me that the original batch of Throat Hit nic was the result of an error in processing the pure mic he sources from England. In converting that to 100mg/ml, somehow the oxidization was mistakenly higher than it should have been. After sampling the batch, Kevin's original intention was to throw it out, since it wasn't as "pure" as standard VT nic, i.e., it was slightly less smooth, with more throat hit. After further thought, however, discarding it seemed a waste of perfectly good nic, so he changed his mind and decided to offer that batch to his customers at a steeply discounted price---$35 for a liter.

I scarfed up a liter at that price and have loved it ever since.

 

[TaketheRedPill]

Several of us tried it, and it was US Extracted Nic from VapersTek. It was not for me, and I often like a gamier nic. But this one to me was just feral. Very strong flavor, somewhat cigar-tasting to me. I know someone who likes it as a flavor addition for a tobacco juice, but I was not fond of it. It was not the Alchem version 2 nic, which is an Indian company. Never tried that one, but it did get some bad press. Evidently they went to extracting from whole leaf tobacco, and the character of the nic changed. I don't know if that is still the case. Have not vaped Alchem in some time.

Whether or not RTS uses US-extracted nic is an ongoing debate. Randy claims it is so, and I have no reason to doubt him myself, other than he would have been the ONLY one in the industry doing this at the time. Others in the industry think it cannot be true. It is good nicotine, however! No complaints from me about it. I think it uses the extra distillation step to get that ultra-pure quality.

Maybe I can help clear up some confusion about American-cultivated/produced nicotine. Here's two:

A venture of Kentucky Nicotine LLC (a Kentucky tobacco farmer by the name of Furnish) and National Nicotine LLC, USALiquidNicotine has been wholesaling nicotine from tobaccos cultivated in the "central-eastern" USA for a few years now, and, are about to go retail. (Yay for the little guys)

There's also Universal Corp (NYSE:UVV)/Virginia Tobacco/Pharmachemlabs-Avoca (Merry Hill, NC) who's been producing AmeriNic since 2013. Last I looked they were still wholesale.

So maybe the cat is out of the bag now as to which brand RTS's closelyheld trade secret possibly is? But there is definitely "NC nicotine". And there's definitely more than one source for "American" nicotine, born and bred. Where ever RTS gets his, it's about the purest on the planet. imo.

 

[JeremyR]

I have a question for a friend - they buy from Liberty Flight and their 54mg nic comes in as an orange/brownish color - is this ok?

Where can I get it? Im not finding it on their US site anymore.

If they like it its OK, probably well oxidized... other NICs can be a lot smoother and have less flavor.

Funny I was just thinking about LF. I got my first juices there and first nic base when I started diy. Maybe its what I've been searching for all along.! I like a lot of flavor and throat hit in my nic... Or at least I used to.

 

[musicalchairs]

They are saying this, to be clear, but some of the details are either misleading or chemically incorrect. And while I am not sure, I strongly suspect that the rose colors often seen especially with vanillas are due to nic-oxides, which are charged in one part of the molecule, pairing up in solution with certain flavor compounds, like vanillin. Not reacting, just pairing. The flavor compound creates a slightly different electronic environment for the nic-oxide molecule, and changes its color a bit (red shifting). But this is conjecture, and I've seen no studies that prove or disprove this. True, some flavor compounds are slightly acidic, and might protonate some of the nic, but protonated nic is also colorless. I also believe that some of the trace alkaloids can also form colored oxides.

This explains a lot. My juice has turned color when adding vanillin.

 

[Jayvon633]

I looked through the thread a bit but this is a long one. Has anyone tried vista Ejuice nicotine or mixers?
DIY Supplies - Pure Nicotine - Wholesale Vista eJuice

 

[aikanae1]

How many nic manufacturers are there?
How many nic suppliers do further processing under their own brand?
How many vendors rebottle and rebrand with no further processing?
I don't think we know how many / how much DW is added to VG.

Another note, Five Pawns has on their website a notice about using another substance (brand name) instead of PG saying people with sensitivites won't have a reaction to it and it carries flavor like PG. Anyone know what they are talking about?

 

[JeremyR]

PEG
polyethylene glycol

 

[aikanae1]

I don't think it's PEG. That I'm familar with. As far as I know, Totally Wicked supplies PEG.

AgeLock

"The new line is a 50/50 blend of vegetable glycerin (VG) and propanediol (PD), an all-natural alternative to PG, which is naturally derived from cornstarch fermented with corn sugar. PD has approval from EcoCert™ (an internationally recognized natural and organic seal) and the Natural Product Association (U.S.‐based natural personal care certification), and is approved by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (USFDA), as well as certified and verified s-GRAS, USDA 100 percent bio‐based, USP‐FCC, Kosher, Halal, and FEMA GRAS. PD offers a natural, non‐irritating alternative to PG."

http://www.herbancowboy.com/docs/herban_cowboy_poly.pdf
The score difference is attributable to some allergy and immunotoxicity concerns associated with Propylene Glycol that are not associated with Propanediol.

I don't know much about it. Sorry if this is OT.

Edit: I found more in depth conversation on Reddit however I don't understand 1/10th of what they are talking about.

 

[mmsjs5]

This quote came from Older Folks and Vaping Front Porch - Part Three | Page 428 | E-Cigarette Forum

Anyone hear of/using yet - propanediol (PD)? Been a lot of changes in gear, this is the 1st I'm hearing of something different for juice.

Five Pawns, the juice maker, has switch to it instead of PG. This is what they say of it.

"The new line is a 50/50 blend of vegetable glycerin (VG) and propanediol (PD), an all-natural alternative to PG, which is naturally derived from cornstarch fermented with corn sugar. PD has approval from EcoCert™ (an internationally recognized natural and organic seal) and the Natural Product Association (U.S.‐based natural personal care certification), and is approved by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (USFDA), as well as certified and verified s-GRAS, USDA 100 percent bio‐based, USP‐FCC, Kosher, Halal, and FEMA GRAS. PD offers a natural, non‐irritating alternative to PG.

In an effort to produce more vapor, some users have resorted to lower-PG vapor liquids at the sacrifice of flavor. Five Pawns new PG-alternative line delivers both a classic Five Pawns flavor profile and increased vapor production."

 

[Alien Traveler]

Propanediol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Propanediol may refer to either of three isomeric organic chemical compounds:

• 1,2-Propanediol (Propylene glycol)
• 2,2-Propanediol (an geminal diol)
• 1,3-Propanediol (Trimethylene glycol)