Tensioned Micro Coils. The next step.
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For reference here, from the thread…KangerTech SUBTANK Mini | Page 167 | Post #3324
24x1 8/8 2.778mm Ø = 0.7405Ω
24x1 8/7 2.778mm Ø = 0.6985Ω
There can be small but significant differences in res if you're not mindful of the wrap count. S-E requires that the target res be adjusted to correspond to either full (return) or half (forward) wraps.
Also wrap spacing is set to zero for contact coils. The leg or lead length to 9mm precisely as this is the exact spread post to post across the airway if the coil is set squarely to the blocks. If you skew the set diagonally, change the winds bias angle or space wind…that geometry (and distance) changes. So you will see a res variation as the end result.
As I emphasized in the Protank thread from the jump the key to consistency in the vape is being able to duplicate the symmetry.
Now one would think hey small diffs in res only amount to a small diff in temp. It's not the obsession with that value that matters. True that. But it's changes in uniformity that may result in major diff's in surface temp output and that matters. In fact, it can totally change the vape as it does in going from spaced to a properly oxidized closed coil. And what am I talking about? About as much as 20% cooler output of the element vs. alternatives of the same mass. Or substantially more!
You will know this when you make one and note the striking difference in output temperature. And why does this matter? Simple. That temp change indicates the vaporization rate has changed. A cool down of the coil and its output means a more effective transfer of energy occurred, i.e. more vapor!
Moral of the story…symmetry matters.
Good luck Greg. Happy New Year and enjoy the vape.
24x1 8/8 2.778mm Ø = 0.7405Ω
24x1 8/7 2.778mm Ø = 0.6985Ω
There can be small but significant differences in res if you're not mindful of the wrap count. S-E requires that the target res be adjusted to correspond to either full (return) or half (forward) wraps.
Also wrap spacing is set to zero for contact coils. The leg or lead length to 9mm precisely as this is the exact spread post to post across the airway if the coil is set squarely to the blocks. If you skew the set diagonally, change the winds bias angle or space wind…that geometry (and distance) changes. So you will see a res variation as the end result.
As I emphasized in the Protank thread from the jump the key to consistency in the vape is being able to duplicate the symmetry.
Now one would think hey small diffs in res only amount to a small diff in temp. It's not the obsession with that value that matters. True that. But it's changes in uniformity that may result in major diff's in surface temp output and that matters. In fact, it can totally change the vape as it does in going from spaced to a properly oxidized closed coil. And what am I talking about? About as much as 20% cooler output of the element vs. alternatives of the same mass. Or substantially more!
You will know this when you make one and note the striking difference in output temperature. And why does this matter? Simple. That temp change indicates the vaporization rate has changed. A cool down of the coil and its output means a more effective transfer of energy occurred, i.e. more vapor!
Moral of the story…symmetry matters.
Good luck Greg. Happy New Year and enjoy the vape.
About one of the best most concise explanations of what a tensioned micro coil is and does, submitted here FYI…Favorite tobacco flavoring discussion - Tobacco flavoring discussion only | Post #3660 | Page 183 | E-Cigarette Forum…
Not going into the litany here as to the rationale for performance advantages. I've already hit 3000+ posts and it was a long night. Alumina (oxidation) and fiber are net neutral for flavor and have excellent thermal conductivity. As an insulator it's electrically resistant when optimally invoked in contact coils. The concentrated and even thermal distribution of efficient closed coils conceivably ups internal pressure thereby reducing the vaporization point limiting excessive heating of the juice media. It's a marriage made in flavor I have found.
Good luck and a verry happy New Year to you all. Thanks so much for sharing.
Not going into the litany here as to the rationale for performance advantages. I've already hit 3000+ posts and it was a long night. Alumina (oxidation) and fiber are net neutral for flavor and have excellent thermal conductivity. As an insulator it's electrically resistant when optimally invoked in contact coils. The concentrated and even thermal distribution of efficient closed coils conceivably ups internal pressure thereby reducing the vaporization point limiting excessive heating of the juice media. It's a marriage made in flavor I have found.
Good luck and a verry happy New Year to you all. Thanks so much for sharing.
For consideration, lifted from the thread…Turbocad's finally selling mods | Post 1471 | Page 74 | E-Cigarette Forum
Bob, do we have any idea how much surface area loss there's going to be with that change, efficiency and flow if he's using other than Nextel (which can take advantage of that power). I'd love to hear recommendations for a TC equivalent that approximates the vaporization rate profile @rudy4653's running and not just a temp set. Does just hitting a temp target duplicate it somehow magically? If not, what's the req temp likely to be, compared to what he's using?
So vaporization rate? Isn't that really what were trying to achieve in our vape? The effects of vapor density and texture are what we sense truly at any power level. What produces its variation, a temp set? It's not that important with TC?
Not just rhetorical questions. Really interested.
I feel like it's 2013 again tho — 6or7 winds of whatever, set the buttons and vape. The bridge that spans our water's been rebuilt a few times since then.
Just sayin' Bob, nothin' personal. I'm no TC expert.
Good luck.
| Post 1471 | Page 74 | E-Cigarette ForumBob, do we have any idea how much surface area loss there's going to be with that change, efficiency and flow if he's using other than Nextel (which can take advantage of that power). I'd love to hear recommendations for a TC equivalent that approximates the vaporization rate profile @rudy4653's running and not just a temp set. Does just hitting a temp target duplicate it somehow magically? If not, what's the req temp likely to be, compared to what he's using?
So vaporization rate? Isn't that really what were trying to achieve in our vape? The effects of vapor density and texture are what we sense truly at any power level. What produces its variation, a temp set? It's not that important with TC?
Not just rhetorical questions. Really interested.
I feel like it's 2013 again tho — 6or7 winds of whatever, set the buttons and vape. The bridge that spans our water's been rebuilt a few times since then.
Just sayin' Bob, nothin' personal. I'm no TC expert.
Good luck.
Holy cow @BobC just realized you and I quit on exactly the same day 3 yrs back! Congrats. Good luck.
Mac, congrats back buddy,
I agree with you that it's not just number of wraps, wire thickness and surface size absolutely play a role in your particular vaping pleasure, as well as coil placement, wicking and air control, but in TC, heat control has moved from the wire build to the TC board.
Coils turning red hot as your pics show, is total overkill with regards to vape production, due to the low boiling point of your e-liquid.
You no longer have to tune the coil to your mod, the chip manages it.
Evolv's preheat capabilities also allow for a quick ramp up to your desired heat level, which is then managed by the chip.
So, yes, this is a new bridge.
Having come from tight micro-coils with thick wires on mechs, I've been very much pleased with this new paradigm.
I agree with you that it's not just number of wraps, wire thickness and surface size absolutely play a role in your particular vaping pleasure, as well as coil placement, wicking and air control, but in TC, heat control has moved from the wire build to the TC board.
Coils turning red hot as your pics show, is total overkill with regards to vape production, due to the low boiling point of your e-liquid.
You no longer have to tune the coil to your mod, the chip manages it.
Evolv's preheat capabilities also allow for a quick ramp up to your desired heat level, which is then managed by the chip.
So, yes, this is a new bridge.
Having come from tight micro-coils with thick wires on mechs, I've been very much pleased with this new paradigm.
Vape satisfaction, now there's a subjective subject. I've yet to find a satisfying vape with TC and I've experimented a lot. Even made my own NI ribbon before you could get it. DNA 40, 75, 200, waiting on 60 small screens. Temp, surface area, chamber size all moved up and down and just didn't hit it. When TC first came out I thought it would be the end all, but so far not for my taste.
Thx for the comeback Bob. Real quick, the purpose for the red surface wire temp demo [below] is to demonstrate it got there in less than a sec. Further that on t.m.c.'s it is a uniform temp set. I agree, we overkill with most builds. I won't comment further. I can categorically say t.m.c.'s by design are far less likely to "overheat" in any great measure. Why? Simply, due to better thermal convection of heat to media for its symmetry.
The pity given that t.m.c.'s are that particularly consistent is that TC technology does not yet endeavor to take advantage of that stability. Not that I have seen effectively, yet.
Vapor density is determined by all three factors of power, air and media flow. The wind matters. Even with TC you have to build for the device.
Wasn't tryin' to pick ya apart Tom. In fact could use everyone's help. I'm no TC expert and I love turbo's mod. Trying to make the time to take on one more project and really test the stuff you guys are working up for that great rig.
Gotta run for a meet up. Have a good one.
G'luck.
I just noticed,
The op who started this thread (Super_x) is now a confirmed exclusive temperature control (spaced coils) mod user,
The op who started this thread (Super_x) is now a confirmed exclusive temperature control (spaced coils) mod user,
Super-X still rocks a Kawi Green Reo Grand so he not exclusive to TC...
If memory serves me correctly, he's rocking a P67 also from Rob!!
If memory serves me correctly, he's rocking a P67 also from Rob!!
I'm very grateful Bob that super_X_drifter inspired me to quit, investigate the possibility of using strain to consistently make beneficial contact coils. Three years ago, I was appalled to find we were winding wet noodles by hand. Such was the state of the art for the uninitiated.
The science indicated coherent stable closed winds should be far more effective than the asymmetrical and shorting elements commonly in use. Particularly with more capable technology not as practicable or favored by existing methods. My observations surprisingly showed the average user could far easier make one with this practiced art than achieving hand wound open-wind precision. Eventually closed precisions strain-balanced contact coils may likely be the object of choice for the one-box-fits-all 5-brand solution. That is my prediction, since virtually everything else we use incorporates such circuits. In fact, you may be vaping one right now and not even know it.
The pinnacle advantage of a hand made strain balanced coil though is that it works for you. Once you've taught yourself to wind and pulse balanced wire to a level of oxidation that favors your vape nothing can exactly match that. Not even the best machine wound alien from China.
But what do I know? I'm only stubborn skeptic who had to build a few thousand of these to acknowledge the obvious and give up twisted.
What a wonderful thing it would be though if we had millions of such t.m.c. users that could rebuild with simple reproducible targeted temperature. Have to wonder what an impact they and that would have on the prosperity and survivability of open vaping systems.
Good luck Bob.
The science indicated coherent stable closed winds should be far more effective than the asymmetrical and shorting elements commonly in use. Particularly with more capable technology not as practicable or favored by existing methods. My observations surprisingly showed the average user could far easier make one with this practiced art than achieving hand wound open-wind precision. Eventually closed precisions strain-balanced contact coils may likely be the object of choice for the one-box-fits-all 5-brand solution. That is my prediction, since virtually everything else we use incorporates such circuits. In fact, you may be vaping one right now and not even know it.
The pinnacle advantage of a hand made strain balanced coil though is that it works for you. Once you've taught yourself to wind and pulse balanced wire to a level of oxidation that favors your vape nothing can exactly match that. Not even the best machine wound alien from China.
But what do I know? I'm only stubborn skeptic who had to build a few thousand of these to acknowledge the obvious and give up twisted.
What a wonderful thing it would be though if we had millions of such t.m.c. users that could rebuild with simple reproducible targeted temperature. Have to wonder what an impact they and that would have on the prosperity and survivability of open vaping systems.
Good luck Bob.
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Well we might never know B if the best Congress thinks vapers are worthy of is the same-old-same-old, if that.
Guess I shouldn't presume Congress thinks.
Good luck.
TC is over rated and only used by people that don't know how to make a proper build for atty / device combo!! Besides, the ratio of people that have a TC device and are actually using it in TC very small. Most don't understand it and get frustrated and just give up on it!! Its the most over rated innovation in vaping to date. My last 2yrs vaping prior to quitting I used TC in my Reo's....it was called RxW...
To make best use of TC mod/vaporizer you must still design (or pay dearly for) a build optimizing for its corresponding ideal of power and flow to match your desired output density.
Otherwise, you're just chuggin'.
Good luck.
Lol nah I still run contact coils too and kinda abandoned TC because I like to swap attys between mods both mech and regulated. With that NiFe it's not recommended. So I just use 26 ga SS 316L at around 0.5ish ohms and I can plug and play.
I do run mechs at times yep. P67, Frankenskull and BBC by @linkagge (crazy mainer mods on FB) are my go to mechs. P67 is the only metal mech I run, one is delrin and the other is a print.
There's only one constant in my vape life anymore: I like to mix it up with good s
t and don't compromise much.
My vape is always completely off the chain.
I do run mechs at times yep. P67, Frankenskull and BBC by @linkagge (crazy mainer mods on FB) are my go to mechs. P67 is the only metal mech I run, one is delrin and the other is a print.
There's only one constant in my vape life anymore: I like to mix it up with good s
t and don't compromise much. My vape is always completely off the chain.
Lol nah I still run contact coils too and kinda abandoned TC because I like to swap attys between mods both mech and regulated. With that NiFe it's not recommended. So I just use 26 ga SS 316L at around 0.5ish ohms and I can plug and play.
I do run mechs at times yep. P67, Frankenskull and BBC by @linkagge (crazy mainer mods on FB) are my go to mechs. P67 is the only metal mech I run, one is delrin and the other is a print.
There's only one constant in my vape life anymore: I like to mix it up with good s
My vape is always completely off the chain.
Great to hear from ya sup and glad you're bangin' the vape. Quite a ruckus goin' on here on how we need to abandon all hope and go 100 cent TC on account of our burnin our wicks.
As I wrote here…
I'm kinda at a loss to understand just how TC helps us. Ya see from my explanation it's inside a few days or weeks we're doin all kinds of temp control all by our lonesome. Heck we've been doin it since the nipple. We're hard-wired.
Now I do understand the part about variable power and how by maintaining a consistent voltage we're not going to see a drop in output (power) we suppose. See the no fuss advantages. But for the life of me I can't figure why not using one or another fella's scrip on volt/res limiting is necessarily gonna hurt us or whether that is even desirable for most of us. Some of us just love to ad lib and enjoy the ride down all on its own.
And who the heck wrote the rule that what where after is one consistent temp anyway?
It's a way of doing things. It's not the thing itself. What is the thing?
The device or mechanism which produces a consistent, balanced, repeatable rate of vapor pressure for the amps drawn. If you don't have a stable one — one that can be duplicated, is predictable in performance and dependable — no matter how good the mod, you ain't goin nowhere.
[Or never the same place twice no matter how good the control.]
It's not the battery, mod or its controller. That's puttin the cart before the horse.
Now me personally I think if we don't wanna see folks exceed the speed limit we teach the kiddies not to put the gas pedal through the firewall. You and I been preachin to this chorus a long time and I know you, like me, in all fairness, will take on anything for a test drive to prove the point. But I think we lose sight of why we're here. And for me that's clearly shinin a light for those that follow us. Gettin them to that <min wind that reassures them they can get over the stinks. They're not free till they own that. But once they do they can build anything, for anything. At the very least understand what it requires, what it is and if they're getting at it.
Done right they can have exactly the vape that suits them. Precisely. Then, there's a a flavor and temp universe to enjoy. No walls my friend, no limits. Only what mother nature prescribes.
Good luck sup.
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HI guys, interesting convo's there. I think TC was only created to overcome inconsistent vapes and dry hits. But when have that right, you don't need it. On the other hand when you don't have consistency in liquid, you will not have consistency in wattage/vape! so temp control really at the end only is useful not to burn your wick or get dry hits. it is only recently that we are seeing the high temp possible unhealthy phenomenon. WE shall wait and see.
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