The end of microcoils?

[awsum140]

Dr. F mentions metals being detected in vapor. He doesn't mention when, what study, detected that or what metals were detected. Those little tidbits would provide some additional guidance in the mean time until a real, comprehensive, study is performed and published.

The other thing that strikes me is that he is recommending caution with coils based on those metals being detected. Given that he is a bonafide research physician, scientist, using traceable test equipment, something in that result of detected metals must be making him feel it is worth mentioning to the vaping community because it MAY present a real problem.

Again, until and unless a real study is performed, reviewed and published, we're all just shooting blanks in the dark.

 

[peraspera]

OK thanks @peraspera .

I only read one data sheet, and I misspoke above when I used the word "fractured". The word I meant was "graphitization". Here's the full quote:

However, Nickel 200 is normally limited to service at temperatures below 600°F (315°C). At higher temperatures Nickel 200 products can suffer from graphitization which can result in severely compromised properties. For service above 600°F (315°C), Nickel 201 is preferred.

But based on your further info, I suppose "above 600°" means more like 800-1200 for sustained periods?

I didn't run across any information that contradicted the temperature information in the Ulbrich Ni200 datasheet nor could I find anything that indicates what happens to Ni200 between 600°F and 800°F nor what defines "long-time exposures". They use Ni200 for pressurized applications so maybe it's some sort of structural safety fudge factor???

Temps above 600°F are pretty much a moot point for my personal needs. I have found it unnecessary to even test fire to check for hot spots/legs for my spaced Ni200 builds and I vape well below 600°F. I did the torching to check worst case in case I wanted to dry burn for cleaning but it's less fuss and bother for me to just to whip out a new coil.

I wish there was hard data available for what is in the vapor produced by commonly used wire as it comes off the roll, torched and pulsed. Absent that, we are left to make extrapolations from what information is available—lots of room for "Oops, I didn't consider that."

 

[englishmick]

From You Tube:


"
Werner Zöchling

Your statements at RY4-Radio on 22.5. about avoidng dryburn of coils because it is destroying metal structure caused a lot of irritation in the vapers community because it is a common technique to correct microcoils, correct hotspot and clean coils. - How can that be - when we use heating wires which are specified NOT to change their properties when they are glowing. They stand temperatures over 1000 degrees. See e. g. http://www2.kanthal.com/sandvik/0971/internet/s003237.nsf/F6421C7808255963C12572BB001C8704/$file/1-A-2-3 appliance handbook US.pdf?OpenElement I am just an interested vaper and no metal expert but I never heard of "metal molecules" that break off. That heat might change the crystal structure (atoms) I can believe. But that there is breaking of the structure and emission of parts I cannot believe at this temperatures where ecerything is solid. Can you quote a reliable source for that effects? That would help us all to get a solid viewpoint on that problem.


Konstantinos Farsalinos

+Werner Zöchling If metal molecules do not break off, where do the metals emitted to the vapor come from?? Stainless steel can withstand >1000oC, but when you weld two stainless steel pieces you produce chromium VI, which is toxic. Where does this come from? From weakening of the chromium-iron bonds in stainles steel of course...


Werner Zöchling

+Konstantinos Farsalinos I do not know it, because I am no metal expert. Therefore I asked for scientific arguments. -You do not answer the question about effects of dryburning kanthal - we do not weld here and everythings stays solid and nothing gets melted and there are no temperatures > 1000°C


Konstantinos Farsalinos

+Werner Zöchling I can only recommend and not dictate what anyone should do. If someone wants to dry burn the coils (temps go to extremely high levels with just dry burns), he is free to do it. Studies are showing metals being present in the vapor. So, they must come from somewhere. Do not forget that you directly inhaling just above the wire. Anyway, when we make a study we will respond with evidence. In the mean time, my recommendation is to NOT dry burn the coils. But if anyone wants to, i am not going to punish him obviously


Konstantinos Farsalinos

+Werner Zöchling I also suggest to try to use common sense. Those heating wires where never made or tested so that you will have an e-cig liquid directly in contact with the coil and you inhale directly what is coming from the heating coil. What i suggest is to manipulate and stress the materials as little as possible. You do not need any scientific evidence for that, this is common sense When we have more scientific evidence, then we can discuss. But right now, i only recommend using common sense for someone who wants to be on the safe side (as much as he can)...


Werner Zöchling

+Konstantinos Farsalinos I agree that scientific evidence would be necessary although common sense is a good thing;-) Thanks for your answer.

OK. So now we know the origins of Dr F's comments. An unspecified amount of some metal was found in vapor. We don't know the conditions under which it was found. But dry burning is a logical culprit because that's where the highest temperatures the coil is subjected to happen.

On the other hand, without knowing what type of metal was found, or in what quantities or circumstances, we don't know whether we should even worry. Maybe dry burned coils with a stable protective layer of aluminum oxide on the surface are less likely to shed metal from the underlying material during vaping.

I don't know that common sense is really a lot of help here. As someone suggested earlier in this thread some testing of the vapor under different conditions is what will get us there. Figuring out what happens based on an understanding of metal structure and how it behaves under different stress conditions may not be possible. In the meantime ?????

 

[Alien Traveler]

OK. So now we know the origins of Dr F's comments. An unspecified amount of some metal was found in vapor. We don't know the conditions under which it was found. But dry burning is a logical culprit because that's where the highest temperatures the coil is subjected to happen.

On the other hand, without knowing what type of metal was found, or in what quantities or circumstances, we don't know whether we should even worry. Maybe dry burned coils with a stable protective layer of aluminum oxide on the surface are less likely to shed metal from the underlying material during vaping.

I don't know that common sense is really a lot of help here. As someone suggested earlier in this thread some testing of the vapor under different conditions is what will get us there. Figuring out what happens based on an understanding of metal structure and how it behaves under different stress conditions may not be possible. In the meantime ?????

Metals are everywhere.
In food: Metal Contamination of Food: Its Significance for Food Quality and Human Health - Conor Reilly - Google Books
In cigarettes: http://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/11/1/202/pdf
In vapor: http://pubs.rsc.org/en/Content/ArticleLanding/2014/EM/c4em00415a#!divAbstract

The problem is we do not know for sure if vapor research was confirmed, where from these metals come, if the level of exposure is of any concern.

Again, as a metallurgist I would recommend to dry burn kanthal wire for cleaner vape. Just do not do it for too long (hours).

 

[Bimini Twist]

With all due respect to Dr. Farsalinos, please show us some data. Show us the difference in the quantity of metals (or metallic compounds) in the vapor produced by coils that have and haven't been "dry burned". Do this for all the common coil materials including Kanthal, nichrome, nickel, titanium, and stainless steel. This should not be a particularly difficult or expensive study to do. I'm prepared to help fund such a study, just as I was last summer when this subject came up before.

Paging @KFarsalinos - Your presence is requested in the The end of microcoils? thread. - Paging @KFarsalinos

 

[rurwin]

There's some numbers on metals emissions here: A study by ASHRAE verifies the safety profile of e-cigarettes, but authors fail to admit it

The interview in the OP seems odd. Dr. F. was very assertive. More so than the numbers above (permitted daily intake of Ni after 775 puffs.) would seem to cause. And dry-burning once is not an obvious cause of these metals. No one inhales deeply while dry-burning, it's a non-issue. To justify such vehemence the metal would have to pit in such a way that it continued to emit metal particles in normal vaping, day after day, over and above the study that the good Dr was commenting on in the link above.

It doesn't make sense, but it's a disinformation problem. The difficulty with those are that your response to them says a lot about you and nothing about the problem.

 

[MacTechVpr]

Metals are everywhere.
In food: Metal Contamination of Food: Its Significance for Food Quality and Human Health - Conor Reilly - Google Books
In cigarettes: http://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/11/1/202/pdf
In vapor: Particulate metals and organic compounds from electronic and tobacco-containing cigarettes: comparison of emission rates and secondhand exposure
-
Environmental Science: Processes & Impacts
(RSC Publishing)

The problem is we do not know for sure if vapor research was confirmed, where from these metals come, if the level of exposure is of any concern.

Again, as a metallurgist I would recommend to dry burn kanthal wire for cleaner vape. Just do not do it for too long (hours).

Nor can we discern that from this interview with Dr. Farsalinos. It is unclear to me how any metal off-gassing could bypass a uniform A2O3 deposition of Kanthal. That would infer that the alumina is being compromised at extremely low temp's (contrary to its specs). Considering that in normal operation (no hot spots, or exposed wire) of a properly oxidized KA1 wind vaporization should stabilize at/below transition temperature as long as the wind is thermally stable and there is adequate transfer to product flow.

A thermally stable wind is what would then be indicated? No?

Kanthal was designed as a heating element. Its oxidation ensures its durability and resistance to corrosion. As acknowledged by Dr. Fasalinos ceramic insulates (isolates) the base metal/s deterring metallic oxidation of the vaped product. Such a wire/wind not properly oxidized would then exhibit all the primary metal exposure as the alternatives, to both product and the airstream.

So shouldn't we be pulse-annealing all our Kanthal winds in lieu of torching? To properly optimize the winds thermal effectiveness, stability and for the presumptive safety reasons concerning metallic exposure.

Instead it's inferred we shouldn't be torching our coils at all without an alternative. For Kanthal, relegating it to the same potentials of metallic exposure as every other wire variant. I'm not dispensing with the utility of the latter merely pointing out the difference in potentials for KA1's best use.

My reasoning then would be that Kanthal was not used or considered. And not cited per any summaries I've seen yet. Then you're right we don't know what metals are being referred to. And if the coil is what remains "one of the big unknowns" why not address that first and foremost.

I agree with you AT we need to oxidize KA1 and a simple process we all need.

Good luck.

 

[zoiDman]

There's some numbers on metals emissions here: A study by ASHRAE verifies the safety profile of e-cigarettes, but authors fail to admit it

The interview in the OP seems odd. Dr. F. was very assertive. More so than the numbers above (permitted daily intake of Ni after 775 puffs.) would seem to cause. And dry-burning once is not an obvious cause of these metals. No one inhales deeply while dry-burning, it's a non-issue. To justify such vehemence the metal would have to pit in such a way that it continued to emit metal particles in normal vaping, day after day, over and above the study that the good Dr was commenting on in the link above.

It doesn't make sense, but it's a disinformation problem. The difficulty with those are that your response to them says a lot about you and nothing about the problem.

I'm starting to Wonder if Dr. F's concerns were based on Inhaling fumes coming off a coil being Dry Burned Only.

And perhaps did Not apply to Vapor being Inhaled from a Dry Burned Coil?

 

[englishmick]

I'm starting to Wonder if Dr. F's concerns were based on Inhaling fumes coming off a coil being Dry Burned Only.

And perhaps did Not apply to Vapor being Inhaled from a Dry Burned Coil?

Just occurred to me to wonder what type of coils were used. The few research papers I've seen were using standard vaping equipment (whatever that means). I don't know if I've heard about any that used DIY coils. Researchers would likely stay away from DIY coils because it would introduce another variable, unless they specifically wanted to look at DIY coils. Seems likely that the results this is all was based on were using premade Kanger coils or somesuch. I don't imagine we have any information on whether prebuilt coils have been dry burned or otherwise treated to produce the aluminum layer anyway.

 

[rurwin]

Dr F is doing work at the moment on DIY coils, looking at temperature regulation and such. So he might know, but it is unlike him to not say "studies we are carrying out at the moment seem to suggest..."

I'll break these and you can repair them yourself; the board seems to mess them up:

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[zoiDman]

Just occurred to me to wonder what type of coils were used. The few research papers I've seen were using standard vaping equipment (whatever that means). I don't know if I've heard about any that used DIY coils. Researchers would likely stay away from DIY coils because it would introduce another variable, unless they specifically wanted to look at DIY coils. Seems likely that the results this is all was based on were using premade Kanger coils or somesuch. I don't imagine we have any information on whether prebuilt coils have been dry burned or otherwise treated to produce the aluminum layer anyway.

Hard to Know Much at this Point. I will thru this Out There though.

I believe that Kanthal and NiChrome in the gauges that Vapers Buy/Use is made via Cold Drawing.

And that the Limited Pre-Made Coils I have seen (Kanger coils in their OCC Heads and Fasttech Pre-Coiled Coils) don't seems to have been Dry Burned or Heat Treated in any way. Just Cold Wound.

 

[CMD-Ky]

Metals are everywhere.
In food: Metal Contamination of Food: Its Significance for Food Quality and Human Health - Conor Reilly - Google Books
In cigarettes: http://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/11/1/202/pdf
In vapor: Particulate metals and organic compounds from electronic and tobacco-containing cigarettes: comparison of emission rates and secondhand exposure
-
Environmental Science: Processes & Impacts
(RSC Publishing)

The problem is we do not know for sure if vapor research was confirmed, where from these metals come, if the level of exposure is of any concern.

Again, as a metallurgist I would recommend to dry burn kanthal wire for cleaner vape. Just do not do it for too long (hours).

OK, AT, you have made the most sense to me, i.e., I was able to understand some but not all of what you have written. Please confirm or reject or, even, ridicule, if fitting, my thoughts. Beginning with the fact that I know nothing of metallurgy, I also lack sufficient knowledge of the scientific underpinnings to meaningfully grasp the discussions here.
One can fire a coil after initially forming it or after its use. The caveat is that the coil be pulsed for short intervals. All of this while watching the coil for the bare beginnings of signs of heat, possibly in a dimmed light. That sign is a slight glow to the coil.

 

[ed101z]

Just occurred to me to wonder what type of coils were used. The few research papers I've seen were using standard vaping equipment (whatever that means). I don't know if I've heard about any that used DIY coils. Researchers would likely stay away from DIY coils because it would introduce another variable, unless they specifically wanted to look at DIY coils. Seems likely that the results this is all was based on were using premade Kanger coils or somesuch. I don't imagine we have any information on whether prebuilt coils have been dry burned or otherwise treated to produce the aluminum layer anyway.

Good point. If Dr. F used some cheap e-cig from China in his research, then we're talking about microcoils that are very little microcoils. Those coils are usually very thin (most likely 32 gauge) with a smaller diameter than a 1/16 drill bit. Most of us don't use coils that small.

Also, I kept hearing something in the video that sounds like someone vaping. Is Dr. F a vaporer?

 

[WharfRat1976]

Are there any bright youngsters in our vaping community who are attending university that might have access to a scanning electron microscope with spectroscopy capabilities? I would really like to discuss the possibility of a simple little study to help us get a little better understanding of the aging of the metal alloys we are using in a very unusual application.

Alternatively, we could crowd fund a study and contract an analysis lab to examine some samples for us. Perhaps we could show some of our skeptics that we really do care about vaping safely and that we could use some help instead of uneducated, draconian regulations.

Me too. Some real science instead of pseudo science and conjecture about metals would be great. I keep my coils in for months. I dry burn them to a glow, on a pulsing basis, use hot water and a gentle brush then re wick. Common sense tells me that any metal bi-product has long been spent. I certainly maybe wrong. I would be "more" worried to install new coils and new metal and go through the metal bi product "slough off" 30 times a month then once every 2- 3 months.

When I dry burn a coil that has been seated for 30 days plus, very little vapor, "smoke" whatever comes off the coil after the water and and remaining joose "burn" off. The coil is a darker black coil that just glows. Maybe anything harmful has been sealed in or has already been sloughed off. Bottom line is I do not know and some hardcore science and examination would be useful.

 

[duc916]

Very interesting and alarming stuff... I eagerly await more data...

In the meantime, everyone here could use a daily dose of raw apple cider vinegar (I like Bragg, raw/unfiltered) to keep the lymphatic system clean and working at 100% to remove those heavy metals we're exposed to not just from (possibly) vaping, but from living on planet earth. Most cardiologists would never attempt to address the root-cause in this manner (heavy metal toxicity), opting instead to deal with the symptoms by writing you a statin prescription, then eventually more meds to deal with the side-effects of those meds, and begin the process of removing all joy from your life.

 

[oplholik]

Good point. If Dr. F used some cheap e-cig from China in his research, then we're talking about microcoils that are very little microcoils. Those coils are usually very thin (most likely 32 gauge) with a smaller diameter than a 1/16 drill bit. Most of us don't use coils that small.

Also, I kept hearing something in the video that sounds like someone vaping. Is Dr. F a vaporer?

Yes, I believe he is.

 

[Alien Traveler]

OK, AT, you have made the most sense to me, i.e., I was able to understand some but not all of what you have written. Please confirm or reject or, even, ridicule, if fitting, my thoughts. Beginning with the fact that I know nothing of metallurgy, I also lack sufficient knowledge of the scientific underpinnings to meaningfully grasp the discussions here.
One can fire a coil after initially forming it or after its use. The caveat is that the coil be pulsed for short intervals. All of this while watching the coil for the bare beginnings of signs of heat, possibly in a dimmed light. That sign is a slight glow to the coil.

Take a look at this
Know Temperature when metal glows red | Hearth.com Forums Home
and do not go above orange (about 1700 F). It's what I am doing.
Higher temperature = better cleaning. At work I clean some small parts at white glow (above 2200 F), but these parts are made from platinum, almost undestructible by these temperatures.
Kanthal A1 is recommended for continious operations at temperatures up to 2550 F, but to be on safer side we'd better stop at a bit lower temperatures. And we do want to pulse, not long heating; it is not because kanthal could be compromised, but because other parts of tank could be overheated.
Metallic heating elements — Kanthal

 

[FlamingoTutu]

I did get a reply from Dr. F and permission to post it.

It seems that many time vapers react in an exagerrated way. I just made a recommendation (or you can call it suggestion). Obviously, i will not prevent anyone from doing it. Furthermore, i never said that doing it makes vaping equally or more harmful than smoking. It is just an unnecessary act (in my opinion), and many people would prefer to avoid unnecessary exposure.
Anyway, i will try to find some time and write a comment on my blog about it.

Thank you
Konstantinos Farsalinos, M.D.
Researcher
Onassis Cardiac Surgery Center, Athens Greece
University of Patra, Greece
Tel nr: +30 6977 45 48 37
Website:http://www.ecigarette-research.org

 

[zoiDman]

Take a look at this
Know Temperature when metal glows red | Hearth.com Forums Home
and do not go above orange (about 1700 F). It's what I am doing.
Higher temperature = better cleaning. At work I clean some small parts at white glow (above 2200 F), but these parts are made from platinum, almost undestructible by these temperatures.
Kanthal A1 is recommended for continious operations at temperatures up to 2550 F, but to be on safer side we'd better stop at a bit lower temperatures. And we do want to pulse, not long heating; it is not because kanthal could be compromised, but because other parts of tank could be overheated.
Metallic heating elements — Kanthal

Yeah... Color is a Good Ball Park indicator of a Metals Temperature.

And that is why People who Heat Steels with a Torch are many times Cautioned to Not Heat a steel to "Cheery Red" (about 1350F) if they do Not want to Alter a Metals Hardness.

 

[herb]

There is ALWAYS going to be people who will try to make sense of it all and do their best to disprove any concerns, there always is and it can get ugly lol.

Bottom line is nobody is going to know for sure what the health consequences are, if any for many many years to come , if someone says they know for sure roll your eyes because it's a guess at best.

The time will come eventually when we will all see if and how vaping effects our health but it's a long way off .