Some appear to go almost white in the middle portion. Hard to tell accurately though considering a camera on that end, color balance and a monitor on this end...
The end of microcoils?
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Some appear to go almost white in the middle portion. Hard to tell accurately though considering a camera on that end, color balance and a monitor on this end...
Yeah... I kinda developed that Technique from the CE2 Days.
Hey BTW - Have you ever Wondered how Hot a Coil is when it is "Salmon" color?
Then have I got a Chart for you...
PROCESS ASSOCIATES
Salmon. LOL
AFAIK Imeo still doesn't have any data to back that opinion up with steliosss. Hopefully Dr. Farsalinos or someone else will do the research and let us know for sure. In the meantime it's an unknown which has 'common sense' reasoning for both sides of the issue.
The Process Associates link seems to be identical with Alien's post of the color chart.
Know Temperature when metal glows red | Hearth.com Forums Home
In most regular applications of Kanthal it does not glow much at all. A bit if it is dark but otherwise no.
That brings back memories. I used to use similar charts when I occasionally heat treated small tool steel parts with a torch and the appropriate quenching medium. Tricky to do, but if you needed to get it done right away and got it right it could work well.
I don't remember salmon, but it's been a while
What Dr. Farsalino said in the interview which started this whole thread (from the transcript which TakeTheRedPill posted):
"Do not overheat the coils. It's one of the worst things that you're doing is to burn the coil until it's getting red. Just in order to fix it, to tighten the wraps, to make them, whatever, to see if the heat transfer is homogenous between the coil wraps. It's the most disasterous things you are doing. Because when you are heating the metal to the point that it's getting, where it's glowing red you are basically destroying the bonds between the metal molecules and then you are greatly facilitating the emission of metals from the coil into the vapor. It's the worst thing that you can do. And I've see every single reviewer doing the same thing over and over and over again. You are destroying the metal structure. Period. Just by doing it once you are destroying the metal structure. You shouldn't do it. If you want to clean the coils because there maybe there some oil from the production process and so on, go use water, alcohol, before even, before preparing the coil itself, Just when you're taking it, when you're cutting it from the roll. Just use water or any alcohol. I would even say acetone you can use it and of course clean it with water, but don't overheat it to the point where it's glowing red. It's the worst thing that you are doing. You're completely destroying the metal structure."
What he says when questioned about it (posted by FlamingoTutu):
"It seems that many time vapers react in an exagerrated way. I just made a recommendation (or you can call it suggestion). Obviously, i will not prevent anyone from doing it. Furthermore, i never said that doing it makes vaping equally or more harmful than smoking. It is just an unnecessary act (in my opinion), and many people would prefer to avoid unnecessary exposure.
Anyway, i will try to find some time and write a comment on my blog about it."
Wow. Just... wow. Thanks, Doc. That was helpful.
"Do not overheat the coils. It's one of the worst things that you're doing is to burn the coil until it's getting red. Just in order to fix it, to tighten the wraps, to make them, whatever, to see if the heat transfer is homogenous between the coil wraps. It's the most disasterous things you are doing. Because when you are heating the metal to the point that it's getting, where it's glowing red you are basically destroying the bonds between the metal molecules and then you are greatly facilitating the emission of metals from the coil into the vapor. It's the worst thing that you can do. And I've see every single reviewer doing the same thing over and over and over again. You are destroying the metal structure. Period. Just by doing it once you are destroying the metal structure. You shouldn't do it. If you want to clean the coils because there maybe there some oil from the production process and so on, go use water, alcohol, before even, before preparing the coil itself, Just when you're taking it, when you're cutting it from the roll. Just use water or any alcohol. I would even say acetone you can use it and of course clean it with water, but don't overheat it to the point where it's glowing red. It's the worst thing that you are doing. You're completely destroying the metal structure."
What he says when questioned about it (posted by FlamingoTutu):
"It seems that many time vapers react in an exagerrated way. I just made a recommendation (or you can call it suggestion). Obviously, i will not prevent anyone from doing it. Furthermore, i never said that doing it makes vaping equally or more harmful than smoking. It is just an unnecessary act (in my opinion), and many people would prefer to avoid unnecessary exposure.
Anyway, i will try to find some time and write a comment on my blog about it."
Wow. Just... wow. Thanks, Doc. That was helpful.
No, he doesn't--other than suggesting vaguely that you should throw away a pan that's been overheated.
Wrt common sense, that's a bit problematic for me here. I have very little common sense that's of any use when it comes to metallurgy... When Dr. F makes a study and finds diacetyl in our eliquids, I can apply common sense, because I know that using less or avoiding it altogether will minimize my risk of exposure to potentially harmful chemical.
But this is different--one opinion is that oxidation is not only necessary for proper functioning of the coil but that it also protects the vaper from unnecessary exposure (if I understand this correctly). Dr. F, on the other hand, warns adamantly that any form of heating a dry wire, torching or pulsing, will necessarily damage the alloy and release dangerous metals into the vapor. For starters, there two kinds of kanthal wire on the market--annealed and not annealed. I use the latter. Does it mean that people using annealed kanthal are doomed from the get-go? And those who use non-annealed wire--should they use it as is? Just wrap a coil, wick and vape? My common sense is not helping...
And then there is this study by Dr. F, which seems to show that there are no significant dangers from metals in vapor:
Metals emitted from e-cigarettes are NOT a reason for health concern
How were those coils prepared and tested? Have they been heated at any point during production? I have no idea.
Last night I saw this on Dr. F's facebook page:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...2IHAAg&usg=AFQjCNHnyGm0Ca_-sx4AWemlRMxi4TRT6Q
Konstantinos Farsalinos: There was a study finding heavy metals. It is possible that some types of wires are better than others. Unless tested, how would someone know?
November 21, 2013 at 3:46pm
I give up...
What Dr. Farsalino said in the interview which started this whole thread (from the transcript which TakeTheRedPill posted):
"Do not overheat the coils. It's one of the worst things that you're doing is to burn the coil until it's getting red. Just in order to fix it, to tighten the wraps, to make them, whatever, to see if the heat transfer is homogenous between the coil wraps. It's the most disasterous things you are doing. Because when you are heating the metal to the point that it's getting, where it's glowing red you are basically destroying the bonds between the metal molecules and then you are greatly facilitating the emission of metals from the coil into the vapor. It's the worst thing that you can do. And I've see every single reviewer doing the same thing over and over and over again. You are destroying the metal structure. Period. Just by doing it once you are destroying the metal structure. You shouldn't do it. If you want to clean the coils because there maybe there some oil from the production process and so on, go use water, alcohol, before even, before preparing the coil itself, Just when you're taking it, when you're cutting it from the roll. Just use water or any alcohol. I would even say acetone you can use it and of course clean it with water, but don't overheat it to the point where it's glowing red. It's the worst thing that you are doing. You're completely destroying the metal structure."
What he says when questioned about it (posted by FlamingoTutu):
"It seems that many time vapers react in an exagerrated way. I just made a recommendation (or you can call it suggestion). Obviously, i will not prevent anyone from doing it. Furthermore, i never said that doing it makes vaping equally or more harmful than smoking. It is just an unnecessary act (in my opinion), and many people would prefer to avoid unnecessary exposure.
Anyway, i will try to find some time and write a comment on my blog about it."
Wow. Just... wow. Thanks, Doc. That was helpful.
Unfortunately Dr. Farsalino is NOT a metallurgist and misunderstands metals in a substantial way. First metals do NOT have molecules. Some metals have intermetallic compounds but those are entirely different things than molecules and are not generally "destroyed" by heating. The may be taken into solid state solution or they may grow and become bigger but to be "destroyed" in some way and somehow this being related to "dangerous" is just total B.S.
Excess heat can cause grain ( individual crystal) growth but that is entirely a function of the specifics of which metal is being discussed and in no way is dangerous to anyone.
Stress relief of internal stresses can occur at high temperatures but the degree of stress relief depends on what metallic material we are discussing and the exact time and temperature of the exposure to heat. Again this is not a dangerous thing in and of itself.
I am mystified as to why anyone would make a blanket statement as to the danger of heating a resistance coil as if it were immediately life threatening unless he/she in ignorance doesn't know the depth of their own ignorance.. My life's business has been materials science and I am NOT an expert in all things materials related but I do know irresponsible statement making in some areas and we seem to be seeing it from someone (a scientist no less) who should know better. This is NOT to question the Doctor's knowledge in other areas but only to point out that we all (especially those who wish to be recognized as experts in anything) should take the time to understand a subject a little if we choose to expound our opinions outside our areas of expertise as scientifically based fact. I intend not to comment on issues of cardiology because my ignorance in the field is profound! If I ever do comment in the field I will take a little time to try to understand my comments in relation to established scientific fact so as not to make a fool of myself.
None of this is to say that dry burning is or is not a good idea. It's just to say that the assumption of either by those have heard or read Dr Farsalino's comments is basing an opinion on absolutely nothing scientific.
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I just keep thinking that maybe Dr. F's intent was to say that Breathing the Fumes that are coming off a Bright Red Dry Burning coil are what is Hazardous. And not so much using a coil Later that had been Dry Burned.
Either way, I would like to hear what he has to say about all this. Sooner Hopefully rather than Later.
Either way, I would like to hear what he has to say about all this. Sooner Hopefully rather than Later.
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Yeah, Dr. Farsalinos knows as much about metals as I do about cardiology. So we're even. But then, I'm not running around telling people how to avoid heart disease.
Either way, ...it's all about MONEY! Big Government wants to regulate the e-cigs business so much, they'll do anything to get it done. If the Government could charge you for the free air you're breathing, they would. It's all about a dollar to the greedy pigs.
Just to clarify a bit on the issue of metallic elements in the vapor above a heated coil. There is likely always an atom of something floating around above a solid at any temperature. That's a consequence of vapor pressure at the specific temperature of the solid. For example ice will evaporate at a slow rate (the rate being dependent on the temperature of the solid). Most of us have likely seen this in our freezer as the ice cubes get smaller and smaller with time. Water has a pretty high vapor pressure at 0 degrees F or whatever degrees C.
There is always a vapor pressure potential for any solid so theoretically any substance will evaporate completely given enough time. That means that a metallic atom might be detected above a heated metal wire if the detector is sensitive enough (most metals have an extremely low vapor pressure excepting mercury and other liquid metals) It also means that we are all breathing metallic atoms (and non metallics too) with every breath we take. Why? Because everything has a vapor pressure and everything is around us. Now as to the quantities of those things we are breathing....they are EXTREMELY SMALL. Why? because the vapor pressure of almost all solids at normal temperatures are also vanishingly small. I can assure you that Mt Everest is evaporating. I can also assure you it's going to take a very long time before it is all gone because of evaporation. So the next time I hear someone state that there are metallic elements in the vapor from my atomizer I might say "Yes, I know. But how hot is my atomizer coil and how many metallic atoms are there and how many does it take to be harmful to me?)
There is always a vapor pressure potential for any solid so theoretically any substance will evaporate completely given enough time. That means that a metallic atom might be detected above a heated metal wire if the detector is sensitive enough (most metals have an extremely low vapor pressure excepting mercury and other liquid metals) It also means that we are all breathing metallic atoms (and non metallics too) with every breath we take. Why? Because everything has a vapor pressure and everything is around us. Now as to the quantities of those things we are breathing....they are EXTREMELY SMALL. Why? because the vapor pressure of almost all solids at normal temperatures are also vanishingly small. I can assure you that Mt Everest is evaporating. I can also assure you it's going to take a very long time before it is all gone because of evaporation. So the next time I hear someone state that there are metallic elements in the vapor from my atomizer I might say "Yes, I know. But how hot is my atomizer coil and how many metallic atoms are there and how many does it take to be harmful to me?)
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Agree. And appreciate your chart. No, the idea to post it more a question my friend. Know we're dealing with an alloy here and I would as a layman assume very close wire color temps. It's interesting to note as I came across this quite some time ago as I began my study of consumer winding methods and tech. Any data appreciated. I believe we're in a safe region prob well over the 1200F I've found to be a productive target for oxidation. But as I noted, no gain.
Thanks for the comeback. Appreciate your remarks. I'm a constant experimenter myself but here for the new peeps.
Good luck.
Big tobacco likes money too and the regulations I've seen seem to be designed to help big tobacco control our money as well as to help government get tax money they won't be blamed for getting by the majority of the population. Between big tobacco and all governments we're not in an enviable position I fear.
Thanks, Flamingo!
So I read it--twice... Oh, Senhor Pedro Carvalho...The article reminded me again that the Caravelas are the most beautiful mods ever created--by anyone--anywhere...
Other than that, in the words of Dr. Farsalinos, "Unless tested, how would someone know?"
Liked profusely as general common sense barring science. I do not vape off glowing coils- None of us do.
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