The end of microcoils?

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englishmick

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Yeah... Color is a Good Ball Park indicator of a Metals Temperature.

And that is why People who Heat Steels with a Torch are many times Cautioned to Not Heat a steel to "Cheery Red" (about 1350F) if they do Not want to Alter a Metals Hardness.

Iron_Caron_Phase_Diagram_Detailed.jpg

Cool, thanks Zoid. Now I understand. I'm going for a Yellowish Brown Hypercutectoid on my next coil.
 

zoiDman

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Cool, thanks Zoid. Now I understand. I'm going for a Yellowish Brown Hypercutectoid on my next coil.

Remember that Color is just a Ball Park.

And that to Clean a Coil, you Don't need to make it Happy Red or Angry Orange. Just Hot enough to make Smoke come off the Coil.

Same with a Self Cleaning Oven.

You Don't need to make the Walls of the Oven Cherry Red to turn the Gunk to Ash.
 

Alien Traveler

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Yeah... Color is a Good Ball Park indicator of a Metals Temperature.

And that is why People who Heat Steels with a Torch are many times Cautioned to Not Heat a steel to "Cheery Red" (about 1350F) if they do Not want to Alter a Metals Hardness.
I do not understand why you posted student-grade Fe-C phase diagram for carbon steel? What is in common in carbon steel with kanthal? Yes, they both are metals. But so is mercury. Melting point of mercury is -38 F, does it mean we should not heat kanthal above -38 F (remember, they are both metals)?

Remember that Color is just a Ball Park.

And that to Clean a Coil, you Don't need to make it Happy Red or Angry Orange. Just Hot enough to make Smoke come off the Coil.

Same with a Self Cleaning Oven.

You Don't need to make the Walls of the Oven Cherry Red to turn the Gunk to Ash.
Sure you can clean an oven at 900 F. It takes hours. I’d better clean my coil in seconds.
 
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Alien Traveler

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I did get a reply from Dr. F and permission to post it.

It seems that many time vapers react in an exagerrated way. I just made a recommendation (or you can call it suggestion). Obviously, i will not prevent anyone from doing it. Furthermore, i never said that doing it makes vaping equally or more harmful than smoking. It is just an unnecessary act (in my opinion), and many people would prefer to avoid unnecessary exposure.
Anyway, i will try to find some time and write a comment on my blog about it.

Thank you
Konstantinos Farsalinos, M.D.
Researcher
Onassis Cardiac Surgery Center, Athens Greece
University of Patra, Greece
Tel nr: +30 6977 45 48 37

Website:http://www.ecigarette-research.org
This suggestion is not based on anything, so I would not follow it.
My knowledge tells me I'd better vape on a clean kanthal coil, so I will dry burn it.

Dry burning of wicked (with silica) coils is of unknown value to me, and it looks like it can have some undesirable consequences.
 

ReigntheGamer

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I usually just make new coils, but after this thread tried to dry burn and rinse my last build. Was definitely some rust looking material on it that I didn't feel comfortable taking a vape off afterward. So I just rebuilt, still pulsed the new ones though.

Not very scientific I know but I can see in theory where a dry burned coil if not cleaned throughly with some kind of brush would have some nasties on it I wouldn't want to vape.
 
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Lessifer

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I did get a reply from Dr. F and permission to post it.

It seems that many time vapers react in an exagerrated way. I just made a recommendation (or you can call it suggestion). Obviously, i will not prevent anyone from doing it. Furthermore, i never said that doing it makes vaping equally or more harmful than smoking. It is just an unnecessary act (in my opinion), and many people would prefer to avoid unnecessary exposure.
Anyway, i will try to find some time and write a comment on my blog about it.

Thank you
Konstantinos Farsalinos, M.D.
Researcher
Onassis Cardiac Surgery Center, Athens Greece
University of Patra, Greece
Tel nr: +30 6977 45 48 37

Website:http://www.ecigarette-research.org

Thanks Tutu!

So, yeah, one of his unknown and unnecessary possible risks. That makes me feel a little better. I'd still love to know what he's basing his opinion on, since we still haven't seen anything to suggest that metal from the coils is making it's way into the vapor. I look forward to reading his blog post and hopefully subsequent study.
 

zoiDman

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I do not understand why you posted student-grade Fe-C phase diagram for carbon steel? What is in common in carbon steel with kanthal? Yes, they both are metals. But so is mercury. Melting point of mercury is -38 F, does it mean we should not heat kanthal above -38 F (remember, they are both metals)?

Go back a Re-Read my Post. How many Times did I use the word "Steel" in it?

Does Kanthal and "Carbon Steel" emit about the same wavelength of Light for a Given Temperature?
 
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MacTechVpr

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OK, AT, you have made the most sense to me, i.e., I was able to understand some but not all of what you have written. Please confirm or reject or, even, ridicule, if fitting, my thoughts. Beginning with the fact that I know nothing of metallurgy, I also lack sufficient knowledge of the scientific underpinnings to meaningfully grasp the discussions here.
One can fire a coil after initially forming it or after its use. The caveat is that the coil be pulsed for short intervals. All of this while watching the coil for the bare beginnings of signs of heat, possibly in a dimmed light. That sign is a slight glow to the coil.

Take a look at this
Know Temperature when metal glows red | Hearth.com Forums Home
and do not go above orange (about 1700 F). It's what I am doing.
Higher temperature = better cleaning. At work I clean some small parts at white glow (above 2200 F), but these parts are made from platinum, almost undestructible by these temperatures.
Kanthal A1 is recommended for continious operations at temperatures up to 2550 F, but to be on safer side we'd better stop at a bit lower temperatures. And we do want to pulse, not long heating; it is not because kanthal could be compromised, but because other parts of tank could be overheated.
Metallic heating elements — Kanthal

Hey fellas, just to point out Sandvik has Kanthal data page, a very useful reference guide for…

Resistance heating wire and resistance wire — Kanthal

AT, agree with your above statement and appreciate your opinion.

Thought to mentioned there seems to be a significant difference in wire color temperature in hearth's rendition of a color bar table by comparison. It suggests that Kanthal's surface wire temperatures are substantially cooler. In my research and instruction I propose short fire progression for oxidation, as evident from the progression below, from low voltage through the red zone until thermal uniformity is confirmed as here, or approx. 1100-1200 deg F for a final pulse…


I've fired such coils to appreciably higher temperatures for demonstration without any adverse effect to vape quality or durability but it's not necessary. The strain of the material surface then isn't warranted for our purposes. These coils btw do not fire center out but build heat as all coils do towards center with prolonged firing exhibiting uniform surface temp's on power up. Current iterations require about 6 seconds of sustained high power (>15W) to get there. But by then you've seen a lot of vapor production.

So there is no need for extraordinarily high temps to create the balance between rigidity and functional oxidation as illustrated by the above. Provided the energy input is not higher than initially required to achieve it pulsing for maintenance is perfectly adequate as well at lower voltages without distorting or compromising the wind in any manner whatsoever.

Summarizing my own informal observations here in counterpoint to the proposition that dry pulsing results in wire destruction when the likelihood is far greater when we create winds that are not electrically stable.

Good luck all.

:)

 

Coldrake

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I did get a reply from Dr. F and permission to post it.

It seems that many time vapers react in an exagerrated way. I just made a recommendation (or you can call it suggestion). Obviously, i will not prevent anyone from doing it. Furthermore, i never said that doing it makes vaping equally or more harmful than smoking. It is just an unnecessary act (in my opinion), and many people would prefer to avoid unnecessary exposure.
Anyway, i will try to find some time and write a comment on my blog about it.

Thank you
Konstantinos Farsalinos, M.D.
Researcher
Onassis Cardiac Surgery Center, Athens Greece
University of Patra, Greece
Tel nr: +30 6977 45 48 37

Website:http://www.ecigarette-research.org
That pretty well covers it for me. Thanks FlamingoTutu.
 

LouisLeBeau

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This would all be great if a coil heated consistently throughout. Torching makes the outside legs get cherry hot right away, and pulsing goes middle out. By the time the whole coil is clean, SOME of the coil is going to get super hot. I have noticed that if I use lower volts, the coil is less "bright" so I will definitely dial down when I pulse.

I did get a reply from Dr. F and permission to post it.

It seems that many time vapers react in an exagerrated way. I just made a recommendation (or you can call it suggestion). Obviously, i will not prevent anyone from doing it. Furthermore, i never said that doing it makes vaping equally or more harmful than smoking. It is just an unnecessary act (in my opinion), and many people would prefer to avoid unnecessary exposure.
Anyway, i will try to find some time and write a comment on my blog about it.

Thank you
Konstantinos Farsalinos, M.D.
Researcher
Onassis Cardiac Surgery Center, Athens Greece
University of Patra, Greece
Tel nr: +30 6977 45 48 37

Website:http://www.ecigarette-research.org

This seems a strange response coming from an authority on the subject. All due respect to the Dr., I don't think anyone is exaggerating, we're in this for our health and his "suggestion" is very relevant. And of course he is preventing some from doing it. Those that don't want to take a chance, or is he discounting his own credibility on the subject of vaping? It isn't an unnecessary act either, unless you enjoy building a new coil every time you want a new wick. It's a MAJOR convenience to re-use the coil.

I'm going to go with the Metallurgists here, and try to reduce the amount of heat I use and otherwise not worry about it until some kind of tests are done to clarify the conditions we need to worry about.

Edit: Oh, and Thanks Mac! Confirms what I was thinking. Low voltage and that coil is a beaut.
 

steliosss

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Imeo was screaming "don't burn the wires" 3 years ago and nobody paid any attention.

imeothanasis, Dec 2, 2012


Now...the doctor's words will peeping inside the minds of many of you, every time you dry burn your coils from now on.
That's a good start....Not an ideal one... but good


My regards to all :)
 
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Alien Traveler

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Hey fellas, just to point out Sandvik has Kanthal data page, a very useful reference guide for…

Resistance heating wire and resistance wire — Kanthal

AT, agree with your above statement and appreciate your opinion.

Thought to mentioned there seems to be a significant difference in wire color temperature in hearth's rendition of a color bar table by comparison. It suggests that Kanthal's surface wire temperatures are substantially cooler. In my research and instruction I propose short fire progression for oxidation, as evident from the progression below, from low voltage through the red zone until thermal uniformity is confirmed as here, or approx. 1100-1200 deg F for a final pulse…


I've fired such coils to appreciably higher temperatures for demonstration without any adverse effect to vape quality or durability but it's not necessary. The strain of the material surface then isn't warranted for our purposes. These coils btw do not fire center out but build heat as all coils do towards center with prolonged firing exhibiting uniform surface temp's on power up. Current iterations require about 6 seconds of sustained high power (>15W) to get there. But by then you've seen a lot of vapor production.

So there is no need for extraordinarily high temps to create the balance between rigidity and functional oxidation as illustrated by the above. Provided the energy input is not higher than initially required to achieve it pulsing for maintenance is perfectly adequate as well at lower voltages without distorting or compromising the wind in any manner whatsoever.

Summarizing my own informal observations here in counterpoint to the proposition that dry pulsing results in wire destruction when the likelihood is far greater when we create winds that are not electrically stable.

Good luck all.

:)

I do not insist that a color chart I give a link to is of good quality, it just shows approximate temperatures (and pops up first in my search). For as long as we are not exciding temperatures of orange color on both charts (“yours” or “mine”) we are in a safe region for kanthal. Without any real knowledge specific to vaping, final temperature is of personal choice. For me dry burning is just for cleaning – cleaning of a new coil from oils and grease, and a used coil from accumulated gunk. Oxide layer will be on the surface of coil in any way.

And thanks for a link to kanthal site.
 

Robert Cromwell

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The spectrum of the light given off bay anything heated is a pretty good indicator of it's temperature.

In many/most of the how to build and clean your coil videos on youtube the coils seem to be heated up to well over 1,000 deg F from the color of the light given off.
 
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Ryedan

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I did get a reply from Dr. F and permission to post it.

It seems that many time vapers react in an exagerrated way. I just made a recommendation (or you can call it suggestion). Obviously, i will not prevent anyone from doing it. Furthermore, i never said that doing it makes vaping equally or more harmful than smoking. It is just an unnecessary act (in my opinion), and many people would prefer to avoid unnecessary exposure.
Anyway, i will try to find some time and write a comment on my blog about it.

Thank you
Konstantinos Farsalinos, M.D.
Researcher
Onassis Cardiac Surgery Center, Athens Greece
University of Patra, Greece
Tel nr: +30 6977 45 48 37

Website:http://www.ecigarette-research.org

Thank you FlamingoTutu, this is what has been missing here so far :thumb:
 

Ryedan

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Remember that Color is just a Ball Park.

And that to Clean a Coil, you Don't need to make it Happy Red or Angry Orange. Just Hot enough to make Smoke come off the Coil.

Same with a Self Cleaning Oven.

You Don't need to make the Walls of the Oven Cherry Red to turn the Gunk to Ash.

This a great point zoiDman. I stopped heating my coils to bright red a couple of years ago when I was using SS wicks and it sorta stuck with me. With Ti and Ni coils I usually use a TP mod with the TP on. I find I can get the wire pretty clean with a little time and a small screwdriver or dental pick to chip away anything that is stubborn. Works for me.
 

ed101z

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In many/most of the how to build and clean your coil videos on youtube the coils seem to be heated up to well over 1,000 deg F from the color of the light given off.

Most video's display the color "Bright Cherry" on the color chart posted earlier... which is up to about 1450.
 
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