The end of microcoils?
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Or the inverse (such as in mech and sub ohm vaping) how higher power actually translates in to more lag time as opposed to higher surface temperatures.
Yes... more heat is produced... over more surface and through more material. But it takes a lot more power to provide the same temps after a short lag to say 22 ga kanthal than it would take to instantly pop several 32 ga kanthal coils.
Tapatyped
I agree with your point and you've changed my mind because I have no readily available way to calculate the answer to my question in the thought experiment I posted above other than to make what amounts to a wild guess based on basically some deduction. So you've convinced me that we do need and there should be a study.
My hypothesis for such a study would be even a pure nickel wire will not produce more than X nanograms of detectable nickel oxide per cubic meter of vaped purified air (purified to remove ambient nickel oxide). My guess for X is, let's see, maybe a prolific vaper vapes 10 cubic meters per day. My guess to abrade .1 gram nickel in the experiment posted above is at least 10,000 years. 10,000 years of vaping is 10 x 365 x 10,000 = 36.5 million cubic meters to abrade .1 gram or 365 million cubic meters to abrade 1 gram. If I'm doing my math right, about 2.7 nanograms of nickel oxide per cubic meter of vape. X = 2.7. I bet I'm not that far off lol. We of course will need a study to see if my guess is even close but if so, 2.7 ng / cubic meter is considered "safe" (about 10 times less nickel oxide than allowed by even proposed strict European standards for ambient air).
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(Red and bolding is my editing)
Materials science is way out of my physics scope so I cannot answer the question, but there appear to be members here whom should be able to answer this question in some form.
Guys, regarding nickel and titanium, am I understanding correctly now that oxidation is actually needed to "seal" the metal so that no metals are inhaled? A reason more to dry burn?
I'm not the metallurgist but these metals form a thin layer of oxide that inhibits further oxidation beneath the oxide layer. That's why these metals don't rust away like iron which just continues to oxidize. This happens whether you dry burn or not. Dry burn (heating) does speed up the process of forming that initial thin layer.
In the "don't dry burn" side of the argument, that side is apparently saying that dry burning either forms an excessively deep oxide layer that then sloghs off when you vape, or that it form some disassociated "molecule" that's is bad in some unspecified way.
It is bad to inhale large quantities of the elemental metals or their oxides so if we are doing either, that would be bad.
I dry burn.
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What you always wanted to know about that thin initial layer but were too hesitant to ask ...
Thank you - Aal for the question and Mad Scientist for the answer.
Please share the "reliable information" you have gathered from this thread.
While I don't doubt the sincere motives of some, and question the unknown background and unpublished resumes of others, I'll patiently await the published test results of the "scientists", when it occurs. Should not the debate or argument, as well as questions concerning the doctors and his colleagues statements also apply to anyone else making scientific claims?
Perhaps I'm wrong, but when do debate opinions equal scientific fact? I'm glad some have already made a decision on how to proceed based on what they have read so far. I'm afraid It's a long road ahead!
Guys, I have a technical question regarding oxidisation layers and contact coils. It's not particularly related to safety so feel free to ignore it as OT, but it is brief and tangentially related to topics under discussion. (Apologies if it's been covered anywhere, I did read every post up to around page 22 but only sporadically since then.)
My understanding is that contact coils are possible with Kanthal because of the oxidising layer that gets formed on them during dry burning. This is why we see inconsistent heating across the coil until we tweak it and it has had a chance to form a consistent layer, which then protects it from shorts between coils.
My question is - why does this same layer not prevent shorts between the coil and anything else? For example, why do I still get shorts if my coil touches any part of the atty base or chimney? Should these not be prevented in the same way?
Or is it that even the slightest brush against any part of the atty will rub off that very thin layer of protection? But if so, I don't understand why we can tweezer/screwdriver a coil and generally pummel it about and it remains workable as a contact coil but then shorts immediately against the atty itself (or indeed against that same screwdriver if one accidentally hits fire while it's still in contact with the coil - not that I've ever done that, of course...)
TIA!
My understanding is that contact coils are possible with Kanthal because of the oxidising layer that gets formed on them during dry burning. This is why we see inconsistent heating across the coil until we tweak it and it has had a chance to form a consistent layer, which then protects it from shorts between coils.
My question is - why does this same layer not prevent shorts between the coil and anything else? For example, why do I still get shorts if my coil touches any part of the atty base or chimney? Should these not be prevented in the same way?
Or is it that even the slightest brush against any part of the atty will rub off that very thin layer of protection? But if so, I don't understand why we can tweezer/screwdriver a coil and generally pummel it about and it remains workable as a contact coil but then shorts immediately against the atty itself (or indeed against that same screwdriver if one accidentally hits fire while it's still in contact with the coil - not that I've ever done that, of course...)
TIA!
I think the Oxide isn't electrically insulating. The coating is still conductive? Or maybe just too thin to be insulating?
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Now that one is in my wheelhouse. Because the voltage potential between coil wraps is very small compared to the potential between the coil and the atty base / cap etc.
I think some of the critical questions are: who is going to conduct the study, what sort of vaping rig are they going to investigate, and from where are they going to receive their funding? It seems as though many of the people participating in this thread are concerned with "rebuildables" in their various forms. I would suggest that we are a (growing) minority, but one of only minor concern in the larger e-cig debate. And thus we are of little concern to most researchers who must demonstrate the "relevance" of their work in order to acquire funding. Cartos and such are more complex and introduce many material variables into a study, but they address the concerns of legislators and Big Tobacco, who wish to ban vaping except with "closed" systems. Ideally, from our perspective, a health research professional with expertise in inhalation toxicology or a related field, with support from the vaping community (CASAA?), the organic chemistry community, and the high temperature oxidation/corrosion metallurgy community, would undertake a study which is properly posed. In my mind, the question is this: what "chemicals of concern" are emitted from a rebuildable vaping mod for a variety of coil materials and different thermal exposures? This would mean the correct alloy wires, appropriate wicking materials, appropriate vaping liquids (including flavor components, which can have different corrosion characteristics than a simple PG/VG mix), relevant voltage/current cycles, and the correct analytical techniques to identify all of the elements/compounds of concern and their actual chemical state (chromium is a totally different beast in its difference oxidation states).
What we are looking for is no small task. It's important to us, but I'm not sure it's important to the world at large. We may just have to figure this out for ourselves to our own personal level of comfort/satisfaction. And we need to recognize that, in doing so, we will have little or no impact on the feces-storm brewing globally which threatens to take away our right to vape.
Welcome to life on the frontier.
Maybe a little further explanation. The oxide has a dielectric breakdown voltage. When this voltage is exceeded the resistance declines in the oxide at the breakdown location causing a runaway effect down to a certain resistance. Since the metal in the coil is low resistance the voltage drop between adjacent coil wraps is smaller than the breakdown voltage, but the voltage between the coil wrap (except at maybe the ground potential end of the coil) and the atty is high enough to cause breakdown.
Wife is calling me for dinner.........
Here, here, your best and most educational post IMO. You hit on the real current issues, and thus problems. A GREAT read for all concerned. The fact that as of now we have to debate the science amongst ourselves and other vapors is truly a sad state of current affairs. I'll state the obvious, we all know, it almost always ends up being about the dam money, and so far we are holding the short end of the vaping stick.
Contact resistance. A problem which has plagued mankind for many decades. Clean metal-to-metal contacts are alway best (well, fusion welds are really preferred, but who wants to weld their coils to the posts?).
I asked that same question on another thread when I first started making coils. It didn't make sense to me that the current would run round the coil rather than straight across. The answer I got from someone who knew about this stuff was to do with the path of least resistance. The path of least resistance was along the length of the wire, which is a thick coherent mass of metal. By contrast the path from one loop to the next ran across a very narrow and irregular strip of contact between adjacent loops. At a microscopic level the adjacent loops are not even in continuous contact along that narrow strip. Small elevations on the surface of the metal would make contact with the next strip but between those elevated areas there would be a small separation between the two pieces of wire. So the resistance to the passage of current between adjacent loops would be far higher than the resistance along their length, and the current would take the easy path.
So the surface layer of Al oxide wouldn't be necessary to explain what happens. Though I guess it may play a role.
As you know, Dr. F has been contemplating a study of wires for a very long time--we both participated in the thread where he complained about the lack of funding. Having said that, his last crowdfunding effort was a success--he even collected a bit more money than he asked for initially. I know that for a fact because I was one of the donors and I was receiving updates from indiegogo. No idea who was actually in charge of that effort.
I can only hope that he will conduct the study now. Maybe we should all go to his FB and give him a nudge...
He doesn't want to be in charge of raising funds, and I don't blame him.https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...2IHAAg&usg=AFQjCNHnyGm0Ca_-sx4AWemlRMxi4TRT6Q
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Thanks. I'm flattered (and slightly inebriated
). And a wee bit frustrated by the ridiculous situation vapers find themselves in - exercising their RIGHT to perform an act which is, by all the available evidence, less destructive than the most obvious LEGAL alternative, and finding themselves under attack by the "powers that be" based on prejudices, lies and misconceptions. Oh, that and the sweet smell of money in their pockets from Big Tobacco. Vape safe, people.
Problem with me is that I have a 4 year old son. If I'm willing to take risks, I doubt he is too. I'm looking for definitive answers and I'm sure we're still far from it ...
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