Your consumption level defines the risk - discussion with Dr. Farsalinos

[Robino1]

Alle Dinge sind Gift und nichts ist ohne Gift, allein die Dosis macht es, dass ein Ding kein Gift ist.

All things are poison and nothing is without poison, only the dose makes it that a thing is not a poison.

you made me work...

 

[Robino1]

I get what Dr. F. is saying with his opinion. I do object when those alphabet groups use this type of information as leverage to continue their vilification of this device.

There is no harm to bystanders. We all take chances with anything that we chose to do. We are harming no one except maybe ourselves. And the chances of that are very slim as compared to what most of us used to do when we smoked.

With this opinion on DTL vaping, are they suggesting that those types of devices be outlawed? Is that the ultimate goal? Or is Dr. F. just letting us know that there is more risk involved? Hard to say. Ultimately, any activity is always going to have those that push the boundaries. Also, any activity has its own risks.

We cannot save everyone from themselves. Nor should we have to. We are all adults who can make our own choices..... for now anyway.

Do I have a worry about large volumes of vaping? I might deep down. Might explain why I never tried it.

 

[zoiDman]

you made me work...

Rest at ease Robin. My days of Posting Dirty Limericks in German are behind me.

 

[Robino1]

Rest at ease Robin. My days of Posting Dirty Limericks in German are behind me.

I still have to check all things out

 

[skoony]

It would be interesting to know what contaminants are in PG or VG in liquid form even in the most trivial amounts,

If the PG is 98.5% pure or 99.9% pure the non-PG portion is 99.9% water.
As purity increases you get less of next to nothing and water.
I would assume the same for VG but haven't actually sourced that info.
Regards
Mike

 

[sofarsogood]

If the PG is 98.5% pure or 99.9% pure the non-PG portion is 99.9% water.
As purity increases you get less of next to nothing and water.
I would assume the same for VG but haven't actually sourced that info.
Regards
Mike

Never the less, what bad chemicals are present in unflavored liquid or vapor? If flavors are THE problem that is easily addressed. If scortching the liquid is THE problem that also is easily addressed. The people raising these issues aren't interested in solutions, only scaring people. That's why we don't trust them and shouldn't trust them.

In the mean time Dr. F's point is valid. It's not easy to test for how much is too much long term in lab experiments. May be vaping will turn out to be self limiting the way nic seems to be.

 

[tckenno]

Never the less, what bad chemicals are present in unflavored liquid or vapor? If flavors are THE problem that is easily addressed. If scortching the liquid is THE problem that also is easily addressed. The people raising these issues aren't interested in solutions, only scaring people. That's why we don't trust them and shouldn't trust them.

In the mean time Dr. F's point is valid. It's not easy to test for how much is too much long term in lab experiments. May be vaping will turn out to be self limiting the way nic seems to be.

It seemed pretty clear to me from reading the article that flavorings are the primary problem. Both because of the variety and because they were originally intended for ingestion rather than inhalation. One of the big surprises I recall as newbie with a flooded tank and juice in the mouth was just how much stronger ejuice was than the flavoring that would be in food or drink.

 

[kross8]

interesting thread.

i just made 1 year into vaping and no cigs.. i loved my cigs,, but find i love vaping more

i smoked 2 pad 35 years
the day i tried vaping was my last cig. my starting nic mg was 24mg

i vape 30mls a day ,,although,, lately it seems closer to 20mls

most of the time i am 0 nic,, but 1 & 2 mg visit me dailey lately (i use it to destress). fwiw-3mg kicks my .... lol

when i smoked i felt fine,, never had health issues... with vaping i actually feel better,, most likely my lungs just saying 'thanks'

as for harms i was concerned with....right or wrong/educated or not..i had read that if ejuice (or was it vg or pg??? i dont recall) were to reach a certain temp that it would or could turn into formaldehyde...........upon learning/reading of that risk i instantly dumped several batches of ejuice i had mixed up and put into the microwave for 30seconds each.===this is also the reason i have no interest in those 200watt mods etc. no i am not judging others that use them.

i vape mtl .20-.80Ω @ 17-30watts 20-30mls a day. flavors are around 10%,, with visits of Neat (no flavor) roughly all are a 50/50 total of pg/vg.

i do vape more when i have 0 nic,,, my fear is upping my nic and finding my ejuice consumption didnt drop.

anyway,, i do find this to be an interesting thread to keep an eye on,, and dont take my notes as any kind of science........because i can not provide you with any science on any of it.

 

[skoony]

Never the less, what bad chemicals are present in unflavored liquid or vapor? If flavors are THE problem that is easily addressed. If scortching the liquid is THE problem that also is easily addressed. The people raising these issues aren't interested in solutions, only scaring people. That's why we don't trust them and shouldn't trust them.

Agreed. I think scorching(or burning) the mix is where the problems if any will be found. Then again
I have forgotten how many times I lit the wrong end of a filtered cigarette.

It seemed pretty clear to me from reading the article that flavorings are the primary problem. Both because of the variety and because they were originally intended for ingestion rather than inhalation. One of the big surprises I recall as newbie with a flooded tank and juice in the mouth was just how much stronger ejuice was than the flavoring that would be in food or drink.

Flavorings have been an issue as a occupational health hazard when not handling
pure concentrated flavors properly. The main problem being floating around in powdered
form or being intermingled with dust or powdery ingredients to contaminate work areas.
To my knowledge there never has been any concern when they are found in consumer
products or used by the majority of food workers using them in less concentrated and
or in lesser amounts than the actual manufacture or handling large amounts.

Even the flavorings DIY'ers get is not 100% concentrate it is dispersed in PG/VG or alcohol
for the most part. I suppose one could get 100% pure flavor. In that case use a mask while
mixing and clean up.
Regards
mike

 

[sofarsogood]

Agreed. I think scorching(or burning) the mix is where the problems if any will be found. Then again
I have forgotten how many times I lit the wrong end of a filtered cigarette.

Flavorings have been an issue as a occupational health hazard when not handling
pure concentrated flavors properly. The main problem being floating around in powdered
form or being intermingled with dust or powdery ingredients to contaminate work areas.
To my knowledge there never has been any concern when they are found in consumer
products or used by the majority of food workers using them in less concentrated and
or in lesser amounts than the actual manufacture or handling large amounts.

Even the flavorings DIY'ers get is not 100% concentrate it is dispersed in PG/VG or alcohol
for the most part. I suppose one could get 100% pure flavor. In that case use a mask while
mixing and clean up.
Regards
mike

Vaping some particular flavored eliquid might eventually cause illness. Scortching the liquid occaisionally might eventually cause illness. Then again 10's of millions of people are vaping all around the world with every kind of vaping contraption imaginable and so far no reports of such illnesses. I started vaping to quit smoking and it worked and now I find I actually enjoy vaping. I want to keep enjoying it so I won't be pushing my luck.

 

[Smoke_too_much]

I have forgotten how many times I lit the wrong end of a filtered cigarette.

Or how many times when going to remove the cig it stuck to my lips leaving me with just the heater between my two fingers.

 

[David Wolf]

I don't think we disagree on this.

High wattage vaping and large liquid consumption are two separate issues, although they often accompany each other.

Inhaling a large amount of vapor increases your exposure to whatever toxins and carcinogens may be in the vapor ( however small ). Just common sense really. If you vape 3 ml a day and exposed to say x amount of formaldehyde, then it only takes simple math to conclude that if you consume 21 ml a day, you are now exposed to 7x of formadehyde per day. Assuming all other variables are constant ( temperature of the vapor, airflow , liquid flow, vaping style etc... ), obviously.

Higher wattage in and of itself may not be an issue, except it often results in higher vapor temperature ( again assuming all other variables remain constant ), which has been demonstrated to increase the production of some toxins.

High temperatures effect the molecular composition of the vapor, and the amount of consumption effects the amount of exposure to different body organs ( again, assuming other variables remain constant) . There's no proof that this increases relative risk( or by what amount ), but i don't think it's an unreasonable conclusion to surmise that it may.

Good post and there is scientific proof that coils run at higher voltage (higher temperature) produced more components of formaldehyde. I don't see much controversy in the original post. Vaping ejuice carries risks which appear to be far less than smoking. Vaping more of it increases the risks. Duh. Next controversy?

 

[KenD]

Good post and there is scientific proof that coils run at higher voltage (higher temperature) produced more components of formaldehyde. I don't see much controversy in the original post. Vaping ejuice carries risks which appear to be far less than smoking. Vaping more of it increases the risks. Duh. Next controversy?

Higher voltage doesn't necessarily mean higher temperature liquid. More coil mass requires more power to heat up, increased air flow cools down the liquid etc. Too simplistic.

Sent from my M7_PLUS using Tapatalk

 

[David Wolf]

Higher voltage doesn't necessarily mean higher temperature liquid. More coil mass requires more power to heat up, increased air flow cools down the liquid etc. Too simplistic.

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Yes, as an electrical engineer I agree totally that coil mass. power, air flow are all factors in coil temperature. The study I read though varied the voltage on the same coil with the same suction (air flow) and measured production of formaldehyde related substances, with the result being the higher the voltage (and thus higher power and temperature), the more formaldehyde related products were produced.

 

[medleypat]

I don't care if vaping 30ml's d2l a day is seen as more unhealthy as vaping 5 ml's m2l. If it turns out to be true then it turns out to be true but I'll be damned if I'm going to tell someone what they can or cannot do based on even proven scientific information. We need to get out of the mindset that something needs to be done about it, other than informing people of the facts.

I totally agree and I believe that is what the op was trying to do not saying its bad just might not be as harmless as some people belive

 

[Verb]

Yes, as an electrical engineer I agree totally that coil mass. power, air flow are all factors in coil temperature. The study I read though varied the voltage on the same coil with the same suction (air flow) and measured production of formaldehyde related substances, with the result being the higher the voltage (and thus higher power and temperature), the more formaldehyde related products were produced.

But, nobody uses a vaporizer in that manner. It still has no application to the risk associated with consumption volume.

 

[medleypat]

I think some people missed the point this thread and Dr F was trying to make was you can't take one study and use those results across the the board. The study that stated that e-cigs were 98% less harmful then cigs was done within certain parameters if you change one then then the results change.

 

[David Wolf]

But, nobody uses a vaporizer in that manner. It still has no application to the risk associated with consumption volume.

First sentence - quite a claim. Any evidence?
Second sentence - who said it did? I was responding to a comment by another poster.

 

[KenD]

First sentence - quite a claim. Any evidence?
Second sentence - who said it did? I was responding to a comment by another poster.

If I remember the study correctly, the voltage at which dangerous levels of formaldehyde was produced would result in serious burnt hits in the atomizer in question. No one would vape like that.

Sent from my M7_PLUS using Tapatalk

 

[David Wolf]

That's my recollection of the study as well Ken. But I'm quite sure someone is vaping like that as we type I've read too many Darwin Award vaping posts and news articles