Your consumption level defines the risk - discussion with Dr. Farsalinos

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Alien Traveler

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I smoked for decades. Half of that time I smoked non-filtered tobacco. No ill effects at all. Even no coughing. Because of vaping I do cough sometimes, but I still believe vaping is much safer. But not really safe.

Interestingly, while reading this thread I realized that for the first time I mostly agree with Dr. F.
 
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Jim_ MDP

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Indeed sir.

I know I mentioned the guinea pigs, and you the lab rats,
I am a very sensitive vegan though.

There are enough arguments tonight so leave me be, perhaps another forum and another discussion for that tricky subject... ;)

Btw, I get the sys recovery setup. But what's the burst disks??

I've burst the lowest two vertebral disks in my spine.
A couple decades of hard core skiing and several more of poor posture... 'pop". :(

And they don't eat the laboratory livestock. :eek:

:p
 
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jambi

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Maybe I'm wrong but I think it's kind of a non-issue, personally don't know anybody who vapes that much, who would have the time? You'd have to devote yourself to vaping ~18 hours a day.

My Griffins with dual Claptons can easily rip through 30 ml a day...

...If I let them.
 
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Zutankhamun

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I've burst the lowest two vertebral disks in my spine.
A couple decades of hard core skiing and several more of poor posture... 'pop". :(

And they don't eat the laboratory livestock. :eek:

:p

Oh. Horrible. I thought you were speaking of something else.

And lol.
However, I believed it was the easiest way to explain various philosophical and existential questions that I am currently debating. Being a product of vast neurological testing, improvements and success, I feel I am in the perfect position to wonder.

But, far too deep for the here and now. I hope, for you, as recovery is out of the question, your pain subsides.
 

Jim_ MDP

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And lol.
However, I believed it was the easiest way to explain various philosophical and existential questions that I am currently debating. Being a product of vast neurological testing, improvements and success, I feel I am in the perfect position to wonder.

I know it was wrong, but I got the image in my mind and couldn't shake it. :p

Now of course... I'm stuck thinking "Rat-a-touille". :eek:

:D
 

kiba

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My Griffins with dual Claptons at 60+ watts can easily rip through 30 ml a day...

...If I let them.
Oh I know, I have setups that burn through juice, I use a dna squanker at home, days off & whatnot, with a SS fused clapton and it def can go thru some juice but not even close to 30mL... I think I'd have to have it glued to my hand, vaping every 60 sec during all my waking hours. Also means I'd be refilling that gigantic squank bottle 3 times.
 

zoiDman

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I don't think one needs to be a Scientist to ask these 2 Questions...

1 - Can there be a Health Risk by Habitually inhaling Flavorings, Artificial Sweeteners, and or possibly added Colourants which were designed for Ingestion?

2 - If there can be a Health Risk, wouldn't the Risk of Harm or the Severity of Harm caused Increase when Larger and Larger amounts are Inhaled per Day?

Alle Dinge sind Gift und nichts ist ohne Gift, allein die Dosis macht es, dass ein Ding kein Gift ist.
 

Lessifer

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I don't think one needs to be a Scientist to ask these 2 Questions...

1 - Can there be a Health Risk by Habitually inhaling Flavorings, Artificial Sweeteners, and or possibly added Colourants which were designed for Ingestion?

2 - If there can be a Health Risk, wouldn't the Risk of Harm or the Severity of Harm caused Increase when Larger and Larger amounts are Inhaled per Day?

Alle Dinge sind Gift und nichts ist ohne Gift, allein die Dosis macht es, dass ein Ding kein Gift ist.
Ask, no. Attempt to answer, yes. Speculation is good, hopefully it leads to investigation. I grow less and less sure that the general public can tell the difference.
 

zoiDman

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Ask, no. Attempt to answer, yes. Speculation is good, hopefully it leads to investigation. I grow less and less sure that the general public can tell the difference.

If it comes down to what a Person is wants to put into their Body, I don't think a Degree in Science or Medicine is needed to answer those Two Questions.

When it is taken beyond Personal Usage, that is when the Disagreement seems to occur.
 
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Mandro

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I don't think one needs to be a Scientist to ask these 2 Questions...

1 - Can there be a Health Risk by Habitually inhaling Flavorings, Artificial Sweeteners, and or possibly added Colourants which were designed for Ingestion?

2 - If there can be a Health Risk, wouldn't the Risk of Harm or the Severity of Harm caused Increase when Larger and Larger amounts are Inhaled per Day?

Alle Dinge sind Gift und nichts ist ohne Gift, allein die Dosis macht es, dass ein Ding kein Gift ist.

I've been asking myself these questions ever since I started vaping.
I'm still looking for a definitive answer to question 1.
Until we get the answer, I'll assume the obvious answer to question 2.
 

zoiDman

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I've been asking myself these questions ever since I started vaping.
I'm still looking for a definitive answer to question 1.
Until we get the answer, I'll assume the obvious answer to question 2.

I Don't Know if you will ever have a Definitive answer to the 1st Question? Or even if there is a Single Answer which would be Valid for All Chemical Flavorings, Sweeteners and of Colourants.

But that Doesn't Invalidate the 2nd Second Question.
 
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Lessifer

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If it comes down to what a Person is wants to put into their Body, I don't think a Degree in Science or Medicine is needed to answer those Two Questions.

When it is taken beyond Personal Usage, that is when the Disagreement seems to occur.
Isn't the purpose of an article, interview, press release an attempt to influence others? I prefer that influence be based on fact and not speculation, but that is the world we live in. Won't stop me from pointing out the difference.
 

pennysmalls

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Couldn't agree more ! Have you seen Dr. F or anyone else on this thread suggest otherwise ?

I think it's important that we are exposed to different opinions from scientists and non-scientists alike. I want to see more studies, more and differing view points, especially minority view points. I think we should subject all studies and opinions to scrutiny, whether or not they are perceived as pro or anti vaping.

The last thing we should do imo is try to silence minority and opposing view points in this forum, and take refuge in the false security of consensus.

Agree, but there is always an undercurrent of "something needs to be done about it" just beneath the surface of these discussions, it's inherent in the attitudes of many members here. Not that that's something that will ever change in any group discussing any topic.

With that said, I'm not trying to silence anyone. I'm injecting the reminder that while this topic may be something that will someday come under scientific scrutiny after some testing is done we need to remember that they're testing something that, at the end of the day, will still be a personal choice, no matter what. We've all seen how scientific facts can and will be used to infringe on personal freedom.
 

zoiDman

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Isn't the purpose of an article, interview, press release an attempt to influence others? I prefer that influence be based on fact and not speculation, but that is the world we live in. Won't stop me from pointing out the difference.

There sometimes can be a Fine Line between presenting Information for the Reader to draw their Own Conclusion and Presenting Information for the Purpose of Influencing a Readers Opinion to that of the Presenters.

Especially when it comes to Scientific or Medical Topics where the Average reader is very likely to have Little or Limited Expertise in this Field.

There is Also a Separation a reader needs to make when reading about Generalities on a Population Level to Specifics on the Individual Level.

Discussing things like Risk, Harm and or Relative Safety of something like "e-Liquids" based on Facts is Very Hard to do.

Because What Exactly Is an "e-Liquid"?
 

skoony

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But we have little to no knowledge of their effects as an inhalant.
We have tons of knowledge. We know those that manufacture flavor concentrates or who's job it is to directly use these concentrates are at risk of harm if proper safety equipment is not used.

However for the millions and millions of workers who produce our foods that are not directly related to these activities there is no occupational risks. We ourselves inhale these compounds every time we smell food or beverages. People working in the restaurant business are exposed.People that make our candy are exposed. People that work in bakeries are exposed.People that make our soda pop are exposed. People that consume these products are exposed. If you can smell it,it's in your lungs. Still
there is no epidemic of these workers or the general population being affected by smelling these things.

I submit that the reason for the lack of specific scientific study on is subject is because it isn't
an issue. No observable harm.( by shear weight of numbers of people exposed to inhaling these substances there should be reasonable risk assessments long ago. Wait there is.Pneumoconiosis | Johns Hopkins Medicine Health Library )

I have said in the past, many ejuice vendors were not knowledgeable and I certainly don't trust them either (otherwise I would not have vaped Cutwood's poisonous Unicorn Milk that had titanium dioxide and other colorings in it :w00t: it was a pinkish white)

....are you telling me they "knew what they were doing?" o_O Never peeked at an MDS sheet or anything? Just add some colors to make it look prettier with no regard to the fact that this is going into people's bodies?
Titanium dioxide has occupational risks for those who manufacture it or use it in concentrated form in high amounts. Although some research indicates it may be a carcinogen nothing is certain as of
yet and,there is certainly no indication of any real health risk for those that use consumer products
containing it. As an example of a possible inhalation source is your basic everyday house paint.
Oil based or water based or,even alcohol based no difference. Titanium dioxide is what makes it white.
Titanium dioxide is used almost universally alone or mixed with crushed lime stone to obtain the shade of white desired. Most all( if not all) commercial paints are mixed being white. Correct amounts of coloring are added to make any other color preferred based on the color white of the original mix.

So whats my point? The reason we use proper ventilation and or a mask while using paint
isn't because that the titanium dioxide in the paint will hurt you. It is because the fumes themselves
could have a immediate toxic effect such as making you extremely ill. The titanium dioxide in
the paint is not considered by itself a health risk. Back in the day when I was a painter we only used masks if we were praying paint,stains or,textures. We didn't use masks when rolling or brushing.

Higher wattage in and of itself may not be an issue, except it often results in higher vapor temperature ( again assuming all other variables remain constant ), which has been demonstrated to increase the production of some toxins.
I agree. Higher wattage in and of itself shouldn't be a problem with proper coil construction and
efficient wicking.(by wicking I mean any method that delivers juice to the coil)) My concern is the actual heat produced at the surface of the coil where it meets the juice.
PG boils at about 360 F. I do not think it wise to actually have PG at boiling temperature.
:2c:
Regards
Mike
 

Mazinny

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Agree, but there is always an undercurrent of "something needs to be done about it" just beneath the surface of these discussions, it's inherent in the attitudes of many members here. Not that that's something that will ever change in any group discussing any topic.

With that said, I'm not trying to silence anyone. I'm injecting the reminder that while this topic may be something that will someday come under scientific scrutiny after some testing is done we need to remember that they're testing something that, at the end of the day, will still be a personal choice, no matter what. We've all seen how scientific facts can and will be used to infringe on personal freedom.

Fair enough ! I am not in a position to challenge your perception of what "undercurrent" you sense in any post. All i can say is that i have been a member of this board for over three years and have read tens of thousands of posts, and don't recall more than a couple of instances where i read a member even suggesting that any aspect of vaping should be banned.

Notice how most members objecting to Dr. F's opinion have not engaged in any discussion on the specifics of what he said, only that his opinions are meaningless absent facts to prove it, and even going as far as suggesting that he should not even express his opinions.

Agree or not, Dr. F brings up a very good topic of discussion, one that @zoiDman, to his credit, has brought up many times, in many different contexts ; All e-cigarettes are not the same !

I will leave you with a passage from Carl Phillips :

E-cigarettes are not all the same and vaping behavior is not all the same. I would like to think that anyone writing about them knows this. But apparently many such authors do not realize it matters. Unlike many other consumer product categories, the variety is so great that the resulting range of health risks is huge.

Can you make a particular e-cigarette and use it in a particular way that causes more health risk than from smoking? Yes, obviously. I have no doubt that out there somewhere is someone whose choice of vaping products and behavior makes his vaping more harmful than if he were smoking instead. (We do not know enough to say which products and behaviors pose such risk. But it is sufficiently plausible and there is sufficient variety and quantity out there that it is safe to predict it is true.)

Can you use a particular e-cigarette in a particular way so that it is 10% as harmful as smoking? 1%? 0.1%? Yes to all of those, obviously. How about -0.1% (i.e., it is somewhat beneficial for one’s health on net)? Quite likely.

The comparative risk of e-cigarettes — numbers, nonsense, and innumeracy
 
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sofarsogood

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Volume of liquid consumed by an atomizer <> volume of liquid consumed by the vaper.

Studies of exposure/absorption patterns of various devices AND various styles of vaping would be very interesting.
And may be hard to do. Some toxic substances metabolize and go away. I'm guessing as long as the dose is trival the threat is trivial even long term. Other things may hang around and may be they still don't cause long term problems because the doses are too small.

It would be interesting to know what contaminants are in PG or VG in liquid form even in the most trivial amounts, Then if PG and VG are heated enough to turn them into vapor does that cause any fraction of them to break down and release new compounds? My hunch is the answer is no but it would be interesting to know more.

We have been bombarded with hazard claims that lack credibility for a variety of reasons but I've tried to take them to heart. Most of my adjustments are things I want to do regardless of safety. I prefer 1% flavoring over 10%. I prefer 5-7 ml per day and wish it was 3.5. My preferred settngs are 30 watts and 400 degrees on a high ohm coil. (My brother is still content with his N mini at 8 watts, which I envy.) I don't know what the risks might be, if any, but I feel no need to push the boundaries until I discover one. I've been thinking for a while about edging my nic back up a percent to see if that reduces daily ml's.
 
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Lessifer

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And may be hard to do. Some toxic substances metabolize and go away. I'm guessing as long as the dose is trival the threat is trivial even long term. Other things may hang around and may be they still don't cause long term problems because the doses are too small.

It would be interesting to know what contaminants are in PG or VG in liquid form even in the most trivial amounts, Then if PG and VG are heated enough to turn them into vapor does that cause any fraction of them to break down and release new compounds? My hunch is the answer is no but it would be interesting to know more.

We have been bombarded with hazard claims that lack credibility for a variety of reasons but I've tried to take them to heart. Most of my adjustments are things I want to do regardless of safety. I prefer 1% flavoring over 10%. I prefer 5-7 ml per day and wish it was 3.5. My preferred settngs are 30 watts and 400 degrees on a high ohm coil. (My brother is still content with his N mini at 8 watts, which I envy.) I don't know what the risks might be, if any, but I feel no need to push the boundaries until I discover one. I've been thinking for a while about edging my nic back up a percent to see if that reduces daily ml's.
All perfectly reasonable personal choices.
 
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