19 Aug 14 - Bill Godshall - Another View: The Pros of Electronic Cigarettes

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Anjaffm

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He 'goes off' on Republicans too - usually at state and local levels, since the anti-ecig feds are almost all Dems. This IS a political issue because it deals with our rights as individuals - something that is under the subject of politics. It isn't necessarily a 'partisan' issue, although there is a certain party that tends to violate rights by justifying that it is 'for the public good' - which, as this particular government was created, shouldn't be the standard, and even if it were, their actions/policies many times fail that "public good" standard, and e-cigarette regulation is just another example of that.

Excellent! Thank you! :thumb:

Hey, and this division along the political lines is not limited to the US.
The left-leaning parties who used to support the working class (note the past tense please!) are also the worst Nanny-Staters in Europe.
In the UK, the Labour Party has long ceased to be a working class party and is now trying to nanny the population "for its own good". In Germany, the SPD (Social Democratic Party) has ceased to be social or democratic and advocates higher fees for everything and more regulation. Both those parties are rabid opponents of e-cigs and just as rabid proponents of social engineering for the unwashed masses. Meaning everybody but themselves.

It is what it is.
 
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Kent C

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Kent, I know how feel about it and that you are passionate about it. I admire your dedication and tenacity in fighting the bans so let's just agree to disagree on this. Pretty please.

It really isn't about 'feeling' - it's about what I just posted.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...ros-electronic-cigarettes-2.html#post13946252

All of that was true, facts. So no, couldn't "agree to disagree" on facts. You can choose to ignore them, of course. That's your choice. But if you are going to make statements about how something is 'not political' or 'not partisan' and it is, you'll likely hear from me. That's also your choice to make such statements. But they have consequences.

Same goes for me of course, which is why I try to be careful and factual in how I post things.
 

Kent C

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Excellent! Thank you! :thumb:

Hey, and this division along the political lines is not limited to the US.
The left-leaning parties who used to support the working class (note the past tense please!) are also the worst Nanny-Staters in Europe.
In the UK, the Labour Party has long ceased to be a working class party and is now trying to nanny the population "for its own good". In Germany, the SPD (Social Democratic Party) has ceased to be social or democratic and advocates higher fees for everything and more regulation. Both those parties are rabid opponents of e-cigs and just as rabid proponents of social engineering for the unwashed masses. Meaning everybody but themselves.

It is what it is.

If Republicans violate individual rights, I'm usually on them worse than the Dems - because I expect it from the Dems. See my posts on Kasich and Christie.... and my attorney general DeWine, just for a few examples. I have a more libertarian politic but am not a "Libertarian" big L or party member, where they think the R's and the D's are the same. There's more than a 'dimes worth of difference' in some of them.
 

Anjaffm

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@Kent C:
Sorry, dear, you are losing me on this US American politics. I do not follow those details and I do not know those names, because - to put it bluntly - they are irrelevant to me in Germany, Europe.

Actually, in my posting I was saying that so-called left-leaning parties have developed into Nanny Staters not only in the US but also in Europe. Which they have.

We live in different continents, with different realities. But many things are the same, such as the intense pressure to restrict / castrate / prohibit / de-facto ban our healthier choice. This is what unites us. :)
 
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DC2

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I think we can - Dem majorities in both houses passing the bill for tobacco control by the FDA, Dem president signed it. Waxman staring it in the House. Harkin, Rockefeller, Durbin, Merkely, Markey, Boxer, Feinstein, Sherrod Brown, Reed, Blumenthal, all Dems pushing in the committees and all signing the letter to the FDA with no Republicans signatures. Republicans Burr and Alexander giving the hard questions to Zeller at the HELP committee hearings.

Even at the state and local level, the Republican support has been for banning for minors and many times the Dems not supporting that 'because it didn't go far enough'. This last, there are many examples of that in the 'legislative' forum.
And this is the correct answer, for those who aren't aware of the correct answer, or wish it weren't the correct answer.

It is excellent but political stuff really needs to go. Many people find it offensive, doesn't matter which side it's aimed at, and can turn off potential supporters. This is a life and death keep-your-filthy-paws-off-our-vaping-stuff fight, not a political battle.
It would be nice it we could make this whole forum apolitical.
Or at least these legislative discussions.

But really?

These discussions, which are based on political legislation, are political by their very nature.

And there is one party that has been hounding the FDA to destroy what is best for us as vapers.
And it IS NOT the Republicans, and it is NOT the Libertarians.

That's a hard pill to swallow for some.
But the facts are not changed by how hard the pill is to swallow.

And please don't bother posting exceptions to the rule, because that just distracts from what is REALLY happening.
 

Kent C

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@Kent C:
Sorry, dear, you are losing me on this US American politics. I do not follow those details and I do not know those names, because - to put it bluntly - they are irrelevant to me in Germany, Europe.

Actually, in my posting I was saying that so-called left-leaning parties have developed into Nanny Staters not only in the US but also in Europe. Which they have.

We live in different continents, with different realities. But many things are the same, such as the intense pressure to restrict / castrate / prohibit / de-facto ban our healthier choice. This is what unites us. :)

If you get 'Tories' and 'Labor' in England then you're pretty close to the R's and D's here. If you know your history - Whigs or closer - Radical Whigs were similar to the libertarians.... who were the Levelers (not 'true levelers' ...wink at aub. ;- ) before that.

As far as names go - anything that starts with 'Harkin' then anything that follows are all Democrats :laugh:
 
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Kent C

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And this is the correct answer, for those who aren't aware of the correct answer, or wish it weren't the correct answer.


It would be nice it we could make this whole forum apolitical.
Or at least these legislative discussions.

But really?

These discussions, which are based on political legislation, are political by their very nature.

And there is one party that has been hounding the FDA to destroy what is best for us as vapers.
And it IS NOT the Republicans, and it is NOT the Libertarians.

That's a hard pill to swallow for some.
But the facts are not changed by how hard the pill is to swallow.

And please don't bother posting exceptions to the rule, because that just distracts from what is REALLY happening.

10K 'likes'
 

Anjaffm

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oh, dears, now that DC2 has spoken such great words of wisdom, can we please return to Bill Godshall's excellent summary in the article that this thread is about?
Pretty please? With my favorite liquid on top? :)

Another View: The Pros of Electronic Cigarettes | Physicians News

I am quite happy that we now have this very useful text in a link-able form :)
(And so is another vaping activist from Europe who also commented on the linked article)
 

rolygate

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One way of looking at this is to make this an individual issue: name and shame the politicians who want to protect smoking, ban ecigs, and force us back to smoking (for whatever reason/s). That way it isn't a political issue so much as one of unexplainable actions by an individual politician in a position of power, rather than by their party.

I believe that is what has been asked for by the Democrat supporters in this thread?

If you re-read Bill's article, there aren't many mentions of Dems or GOP, he goes after Obama. That seems to accord with the preceding request.

You can't just walk away and not blame anybody - somebody must be responsible for the millions of preventable deaths that will occur if the FDA have their way. So who is that person or persons?
 

Kent C

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One way of looking at this is to make this an individual issue: name and shame the politicians who want to protect smoking, ban ecigs, and force us back to smoking (for whatever reason/s). That way it isn't a political issue so much as one of unexplainable actions by an individual politician in a position of power, rather than by their party.

I believe that is what has been asked for by the Democrat supporters in this thread?

If you re-read Bill's article, there aren't many mentions of Dems or GOP, he goes after Obama. That seems to accord with the preceding request.

You can't just walk away and not blame anybody - somebody must be responsible for the millions of preventable deaths that will occur if the FDA have their way. So who is that person or persons?

I agree. I usually name the names. Did that above and many other places. Some don't like that either...
 

wv2win

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Agreed, it's excellent, but Bill should stop making these things politically personal with phases like "Obama’s FDA" and "Obama appointee". I don't care for BHO at all myself, but there are clearly those who do. This is evidenced by the fact that they elected him to the highest office in the land, not just once, but twice. Making it personal in this manner will cause at least a fraction of the intended audience to dismiss the entire article as the rant of right-wing nut (and whether he actually is one or not is irrelevant). Moreover, since BHO is a lame duck, there's nothing to be gained by it; it's not like anyone can be persuaded to vote for his opponent the next time around.

I understand your point, but the "facts are the facts". Everything in his comments pertaining to this administration is accurate.

In fact, I strongly believe that our best chance for these regulations to be either stopped completely or at a minimum significantly altered, is for the control of the Senate to change hands during the upcoming mid-term election. If those who vape don't want to admit that this has become and is a political issue and one that was made into a political issue by this administration and a faction within the party it represents, then we are all just "cutting off our noses to spite our faces".

If we want to stop this attack on vaping, then those who hold political power and are attacking vaping need to be replaced. They have no intention of changing their stance.
 
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Grimwald

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Politics must go...period. It only serves to alienate 1/2 of the population.

I am a proud, bleeding heart, tree hugging, pro-choice, anti-gun liberal. AND I am a vaper. I will never contribute to or vote for the current Republican party. Nor will I ever support any organization that contributes to or supports any Republican candidate. Even tho e-cigs helped me kick a 40 year smoking habit, it is just not that much of a voting issue. There are so many more important things that effect me and the future of my kids. So if you start trashing the President (yes, I treat him with respect), you are alienating me.

There, I've said my piece...I feel so much better.
 

wv2win

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Barack Hussein Obama :D

He posted that as a comment to an article I saw yesterday, and then lost. It is excellent but political stuff really needs to go. Many people find it offensive, doesn't matter which side it's aimed at, and can turn off potential supporters. This is a life and death keep-your-filthy-paws-off-our-vaping-stuff fight, not a political battle.

Sorry, rant over.

Please explain how it IS NOT a political battle. Your comments make no sense what so ever. (and conversely explain what IS a political battle)
 

wv2win

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Sorry, I wasn't arguing about it. They need to keep their paws off a lot of stuff. As awesome as Bill is, he does go off a lot on Democrats and many people have expressed their displeasure with it. I think he'd get the same reactions if he constantly targeted Republicans. Better to target the individuals causing the problems rather than half the population. just my spare change. :blush:

The "individuals causing the problems" all have one thing in common............do you know what that one thing is???
 

wv2win

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I do love Bill's posts, but I agree that the partisan rhetoric has got to go. All is does is alienate people who still support Obama, and it does not help our cause to alienate anyone.

Furthermore, I hardly think that all of this nonsense with the FDA is entirely because of the president. We all know that there are many powers at play here. Yes, recent events with the FDA attempting to ban e-cigs occurred during the Obama era, but that also happens to be the time that e-cigs started getting popular.

The FDA pushed to ban nic water and succeeded, and that happened during the Bush administration. Not to mention the 30+ year history of suppressing information on harm reduction, which has occurred through multiple presidential terms. We can't really pin the tail on the donkey or the elephant in this case.

If we don't know who the "enemy" is that is attacking us and their motivation, then we sure as heck will not be able to effectively fight against them. If we on this forum who believe we should "name-names" were also delving into other political issues and broadening the conversation, then I could see that as just a "partisan" attack and not helpful or relevant. But that is not what we are doing. Maybe if people better understood the motivation and agenda of the politicians they voted for, they would be more careful how they voted.
 

aubergine

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No politically literate person who's informed on this issue would deny that certain Democrats, appointed and elected, drive the assault on ecigs. Democrats not particularly avid on the issue will still likely support them. Especially in DC - when we get to states and counties things get a bit more blurry.
No matter what party we affiliate with, that's the affiliation of the power-people we're opposing here. That's just a plain fact.

I don't find it unusual or incoherent to oppose those half-baked opinions and deplorable actions on the part of fellow Democrats. I disagree with various Democrats all the time, sometimes very intensely; Republicans obviously do plenty of that, too. Those rigid boxes are constructed by the powers who benefit from division, and are fed to us by media.

I've never known anyone, not even the staunchest and most loyal party member, who actually agrees with their party all of the time - most spend as much time railing at their own as at the opposition, on both sides. Doesn't change the basic affiliation, usually.

Everyone (so far as I can tell, and I might be mistaken) in here agrees on one thing: we don't want the FDA or anyone else to interfere with our right to use, purchase, manufacture or sell this product. We oppose persons, actions and agencies insofar as that's what they're doing. Beyond that, we've got diversity of opinion, like it or not. How we deal with that in an issue-focused forum is an ongoing, prickly discussion.

Whatever our POV on gun control, health care, gay marriage, church and state, corporate regulation, tax structures, Israel and Palestine, NSA, drones, the general character of the current president, immigrants at the border, even other policies endorsed by those who need to be opposed on this one, etc etc etc, we're all angry at the this absurd and oppressive debacle and want to do what we can to fight it.
To me, focus on the need for solidarity trumps the right to contentious self-expression that accidentally or deliberately lumps other members into a perceived enemy camp - in this forum. The whole wide world is the venue for those conflicts.

As for Bill mentioning Obama in that excellent piece - well, Bill's larger political agenda might not square with mine, but I didn't and don't see him opining tangentially. It was a fact he landed on, and one utterly relevant to the cause. Obama signed that. To the extent that he's responsible ultimately for every agency decision that he signs onto, he owns it. It's not been made right, and it's something to be angry about whatever anyone's opinion on his other policies. IMHO

I should always add IMHO because sometimes I think I write like a pompous ... and I'm really not. :/
 
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wv2win

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Politics must go...period. It only serves to alienate 1/2 of the population.

I am a proud, bleeding heart, tree hugging, pro-choice, anti-gun liberal. AND I am a vaper. I will never contribute to or vote for the current Republican party. Nor will I ever support any organization that contributes to or supports any Republican candidate. Even tho e-cigs helped me kick a 40 year smoking habit, it is just not that much of a voting issue. There are so many more important things that effect me and the future of my kids. So if you start trashing the President (yes, I treat him with respect), you are alienating me.

There, I've said my piece...I feel so much better.

Well, you just alienated me but that obviously doesn't matter since you are not part of "the other half". By your own admission, you support the very group that wants vaping banned . But, heck, as you also indicated, it really isn't that important.
 

wv2win

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No politically literate person who's informed on this issue would deny that certain Democrats, appointed and elected, drive the assault on ecigs. Democrats not particularly avid on the issue will still likely support them. Especially in DC - when we get to states and counties things get a bit more blurry.
No matter what party we affiliate with, that's the affiliation of the power-people we're opposing here. That's just a plain fact.

I don't find it unusual or incoherent to oppose those half-baked opinions and deplorable actions on the part of fellow Democrats. I disagree with various Democrats all the time, sometimes very intensely; Republicans obviously do plenty of that, too. Those rigid boxes are constructed by the powers who benefit from division, and are fed to us by media.

I've never known anyone, not even the staunchest and most loyal party member, who actually agrees with their party all of the time - most spend as much time railing at their own as at the opposition, on both sides. Doesn't change the basic affiliation, usually.

Everyone (so far as I can tell, and I might be mistaken) in here agrees on one thing: we don't want the FDA or anyone else to interfere with our right to use, purchase, manufacture or sell this product. We oppose persons, actions and agencies insofar as that's what they're doing. Beyond that, we've got diversity of opinion, like it or not. How we deal with that in an issue-focused forum is an ongoing, prickly discussion.

Whatever our POV on gun control, health care, gay marriage, church and state, corporate regulation, tax structures, Israel and Palestine, NSA, drones, the general character of the current president, immigrants at the border, even other policies endorsed by those who need to be opposed on this one, etc etc etc, we're all angry at the this absurd and oppressive debacle and want to do what we can to fight it.
To me, focus on the need for solidarity trumps the right to contentious self-expression that accidentally or deliberately lumps other members into a perceived enemy camp - in this forum. The whole wide world is the venue for those conflicts.

As for Bill mentioning Obama in that excellent piece - well, Bill's larger political agenda might not square with mine, but I didn't and don't see him opining tangentially. It was a fact he landed on, and one utterly relevant to the cause. Obama signed that. To the extent that he's responsible ultimately for every agency decision that he signs onto, he owns it. It's not been made right, and it's something to be angry about whatever anyone's opinion on his other policies. IMHO

I should always add IMHO because sometimes I think I write like a pompous ... and I'm really not. :/

Well stated overall and especially what I bolded above. I'm an Independent who tries to stay in the center but definitely leans on many issues somewhat right of center. But regardless of what party one aligns with, politicians and bureaucrats who use their positions of power to control people's actions (that don't harm others!!) should not be supported.
 
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