Rising e-cigarette sales spur call for regulations

[Petrodus]

This IS what we are trying to do,.......

As always ... Great post !!

 

[Bill Godshall]

metropolitan wrote

you have to learn to play the game if you want to stay in the playground.

The only reason metropolitan can legally buy and use e-cigs is because some of us not only learned to play the game, but because we've repeatedly beat the FDA and other e-cigarette prohibitionists at their prohibition and propaganda games since 2009.

The best way to beat the FDA and its potentially forthcoming plan to "deem" e-cigs under Chapter IX regulations of the FSPTCA (which would ban the products) is to continue exposing and criticizing the lies and fear mongering propaganda by FDA and other e-cig prohibitionists.

 

[Agorizer]

this is the paranoid conspiratorial attitude i'm talking about that's counterproductive.
i'm not opposed to some regulations so therefore i'm a plant for the FDA? is it so hard to accept that people have different opinions without it being part of some nefarious conspiracy?

ANY answer to the posts by Kristin or Elaine is deafening in it's absence. I greatly appreciate them and all of the DO-ers here and at CASAA. I am wholly UN-impressed by those who are oh-so willing to tell the DO-ers how they should do it.
It is NOT paranoia when they are actually out to get you (or your goodies). In case you have not noticed--- THEY ARE OUT TO GET YOU!!!
It is only through the long standing efforts of those who you now feel entitled to tell HOW to do it that you aren't still on the stinkies.
As I say, I'm ever grateful for the efforts of those who ARE and HAVE, repeatedly, tried to work within the system. Not because they are going to "save me" from the evil that is the state; but because it points out just who THEY are and how evil, crooked and broken the system is. "They, who are "They?"---those who just won't leave me alone. I count you among them.
Because some of us refuse to advocate playing with the sharks doesn't make us the enemy. Without SOMEONE yelling "NO!, HELL NO!!", those who ARE playing in the shark tank wouldn't have a chance. How do you think slavery ended; by abolitionist saying "Well, we don't like it too much, but there will always be slaves, so we had better just ask for lighter beatings".?

 

[rothenbj]

this is the paranoid conspiratorial attitude i'm talking about that's counterproductive.
i'm not opposed to some regulations so therefore i'm a plant for the FDA? is it so hard to accept that people have different opinions without it being part of some nefarious conspiracy?

We'll find out in April how much the FDA listened to the many that came forward in their meetings leading up to the deeming regulation. My guess is very little, but I've seen what the FDA has done in the past when someone threatened their "client", the Pharma industry.

I'd be pleasantly surprised if I was wrong, but I don't see any major surprises in my future on this issue.

 

[Luisa]

Sooo ...
Maybe we should have a "chit-chat" with Peggy ??!!

Actually we need Rudy Guiliani(sp). When he was Mayor of NYC and she was head of public health,he put her in her place quite nicely.

 

[NatashaR]

IMHO, it's all about the $$$, not public health & safety. Look at the recent rulings from UT. 86% tax proposal....

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...-cigarettes-86-ban-online-sales-hb-372-a.html

You think the FEDS are going miss a part of this??

As to the FDA... they can't even keep dog food from killing dogs.

 

[Berylanna]

IMHO, it's all about the $$$, not public health & safety. Look at the recent rulings from UT. 86% tax proposal....

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...-cigarettes-86-ban-online-sales-hb-372-a.html

You think the FEDS are going miss a part of this??

As to the FDA... they can't even keep dog food from killing dogs.

So, which is it? Do you want the FDA to require approval BEFORE selling something or not? The melamine contamination in dog food originated in China. The FDA also found tiny amounts of diethylene glycol in one of the Chinese cartos. That is an indication that someone upstream was, at that time (209) probably selling adulterated glycerine. (Yes, I buy my e-liquids from U.S. vendors that say they use U.S. ingredients!)

The FDA requires massive (though not always HONEST) testing of pharmaceuticals before they allow them on the market. They also require heavy-duty, million-$$, equivalence proof before allowing a generic, but sometimes after all that generics still kill because they deliver the active ingredient to fast or slow.

But for foods, booze, and nutritional supplements, the FDA only has recall (and inspection) rights, so if a bad batch comes through, IT IS NOT THEIR JOB to catch it ahead of time.

We've been lobbying to get them to treat e-liquid like food or booze or nutritional supplements.

To catch the dog food problem BEFORE harm, they'd have had to do PRE-marketing approval for every tiny change in manufacturing of all our foods and our dogs' foods. Everything would cost about 4X as much AT LEAST. My insurance company pays $2.50 per pill and those are tiny. If I paid $2.50 per macaroni piece, I'd lose weight fast.

 

[NatashaR]

So, which is it? Do you want the FDA to require approval BEFORE selling something or not? The melamine contamination in dog food originated in China. The FDA also found tiny amounts of diethylene glycol in one of the Chinese cartos. That is an indication that someone upstream was, at that time (209) probably selling adulterated glycerine. (Yes, I buy my e-liquids from U.S. vendors that say they use U.S. ingredients!)

The FDA requires massive (though not always HONEST) testing of pharmaceuticals before they allow them on the market. They also require heavy-duty, million-$$, equivalence proof before allowing a generic, but sometimes after all that generics still kill because they deliver the active ingredient to fast or slow.

But for foods, booze, and nutritional supplements, the FDA only has recall (and inspection) rights, so if a bad batch comes through, IT IS NOT THEIR JOB to catch it ahead of time.

We've been lobbying to get them to treat e-liquid like food or booze or nutritional supplements.

To catch the dog food problem BEFORE harm, they'd have had to do PRE-marketing approval for every tiny change in manufacturing of all our foods and our dogs' foods. Everything would cost about 4X as much AT LEAST. My insurance company pays $2.50 per pill and those are tiny. If I paid $2.50 per macaroni piece, I'd lose weight fast.

My point is IT IS STILL HAPPENING. Dogs are still dying from contamination, despite FDA "regulation". If you are going to regulate and do initial testing, then you have to follow-up and continue to test imported products. Am I going to TRUST if the FDA approves *whatever* e-cig liquid? NO. And I stand by what I said. In the end, it's not about "public health and safety".

Ever bought any frozen salmon "made in China" that in TINY print on the package says "made in a plant that also manufactures shellfish". Where is that warning wherein those allergic to shellfish might NOTICE? In tiny, tiny print on the back bottom of the package.

They don't do their job. Attempt is made by law, but the follow thru afterward is absent. The same will happen in the e-cig industry, all for the benefit of taxation and control.... which is the ultimate goal.

ETA: and I'm not saying oversight is not needed as to eliqs. I don't want to vape poison either. What I am saying is that the FDA is not an effective venue for same. Track record proven. And anytime the govt gets involved, the result is TAX and lack of choices.

 

[Berylanna]

My point is IT IS STILL HAPPENING. Dogs are still dying from contamination, despite FDA "regulation". If you are going to regulate and do initial testing, then you have to follow-up and continue to test imported products.

I looked it up and saw that. Scary. It also looks like the problem in this one case is not the FDA not doing its job, it is that somehow some new substance (I'd bet an organic chain of some kind) that has never before been seen in food poisoning in the U.S. is responsible. It really looks like the FDA is doing everything possible to diagnose this. They ARE still testing, they are enlisting outside labs,

The really sucky thing about reality is we don't always know how to fix things or what exactly is wrong. I make my living diagnosing things that are human-made and therefore MUCH easier to diagnose than organic beings, and I still have some cases where I never figure it out. (I can also do autopsies on resurrectable things, they can e-mail the corpses to me!)

This does NOT excuse the FDA for Chantix, or that antibiotic that destroyed peoples' livers, killing newborns and adults and almost-killing a friend of mine.

And even though the FDA actually asked Congress to NOT give them tobacco control, they lost that battle and are now stuck trying to do something for which they are completely incompetent. And it's not clear to me that it would be legal for them to admit it.

In case you are wondering what testing the FDA is doing on the current dog food issue:

Testing of Jerky Pet Treat Products

What is FDA testing for?

Since 2007, FDA has been actively investigating the cause of illness in pets reported in association with the consumption of chicken jerky products. More recently (2012), the product-associated complaints have expanded to other jerky pet treat products such as duck and sweet potato jerky treats. Samples have been tested by FDA laboratories, by the Veterinary Laboratory Response Network (Vet-LRN), and by other animal health diagnostic laboratories in the U.S for multiple chemical and microbiological contaminants.

Product samples were tested for Salmonella, metals, furans, pesticides, antibiotics, mycotoxins, rodenticides, nephrotoxins (such as aristolochic acid, maleic acid, paraquat, ethylene glycol, diethylene glycol, toxic hydrocarbons, melamine and related triazines) and were screened for other chemicals and poisonous compounds. DNA verification was conducted on these samples to confirm the presence of poultry in the treats. Samples have also been submitted for nutritional composition (which includes glycerol concentrations), vitamin D excess and enterotoxin analysis. Some samples from recent cases (2011-2012) have been submitted for multiple tests and we are awaiting results. More samples are in the process of being collected for testing.

 

[Berylanna]

Hmmm, let's tell the FDA to FORGET regulating nicotine, we'll settle for regulating the origin of glycerin used in e-cigs. Let them earn their keep and keep their "face" as long as we get to "vape on."

From Safety of Chinese Imports

Safety of Chinese Imports
Statement of
Murray M. Lumpkin, M.D.
Deputy Commissioner for International and Special Program
before
the Senate Committee on Commerce, Science & Transportation
<huge snip>
DRUGS

Chemical counterfeiting generally and diethylene glycol (DEG)-contaminated products specifically coming from China have been, and still are, on-going concerns for the U.S. and other nations. Ten years ago, Chinese counterfeit glycerin killed nearly 100 children in Haiti. Last year in Panama, Chinese glycerin contaminated with DEG again caused scores of deaths. Recently, toothpaste imported from China to the U.S. was found to contain DEG.

It is our understanding that China does not require registration of chemicals that may have a dual use in both industrial chemical products and drug products. This is the case for dual-use chemicals targeted for domestic use as well as for export. With respect to dual-use chemicals, this systemic problem increasingly can pose a hazard to the U.S. drug supply if these products are exported as “chemicals” but used as starting products for the production of pharmaceuticals.

The recent DEG episode has reinvigorated attention on China’s regulation of its drug products, active pharmaceutical ingredients (APIs), and excipients. FDA’s general experience has been that, while some Chinese companies are state-of-the-art in technology and manufacturing expertise, many are at the opposite end of the spectrum. Further, in the past four years, the number of FDA-registered drug manufacturers in China has at least doubled.
<huge snip>

 

[NatashaR]

I looked it up and saw that. Scary. It also looks like the problem in this one case is not the FDA not doing its job, it is that somehow some new substance (I'd bet an organic chain of some kind) that has never before been seen in food poisoning in the U.S. is responsible. It really looks like the FDA is doing everything possible to diagnose this. They ARE still testing, they are enlisting outside labs,

The really sucky thing about reality is we don't always know how to fix things or what exactly is wrong. I make my living diagnosing things that are human-made and therefore MUCH easier to diagnose than organic beings, and I still have some cases where I never figure it out. (I can also do autopsies on resurrectable things, they can e-mail the corpses to me!)

This does NOT excuse the FDA for Chantix, or that antibiotic that destroyed peoples' livers, killing newborns and adults and almost-killing a friend of mine.

And even though the FDA actually asked Congress to NOT give them tobacco control, they lost that battle and are now stuck trying to do something for which they are completely incompetent. And it's not clear to me that it would be legal for them to admit it.

In case you are wondering what testing the FDA is doing on the current dog food issue:

Exactly.. they are not competent in that they do not follow thru. So they should regulate e-cig liqs? Why would we not believe that the very same would not happen w/ eliqs? Approved, then contaminated w/ some new substance, but again not tested until people die? Same scenario, over and over and over again due to policy and procedure. Lack of oversight.
The toxins and carcinogens in analogs should have been "outlawed" years ago, if indeed the goal was "public health and safety". But, again, there is big money involved on the "other side"... health care and tobacco. And our govt is heavily influenced by lobbyists and $.
And ITA w/ you as to Chantix. I'd not take that crap if you gave it to me and paid me bunches to be a lab rat.
I had 1 dog die from melamine in dog food treats. I currently still own another who survived, and his vet bills are now over 10K. He has severe digestive problems and food allergies from earlier dog foods. I know about the current dog food testing, as I had once trusted a certain brand of duck and yam treats produced by a US company and approved by the FDA, which I gave to this same dog, only to find them later recalled. He will have health issues until he dies. Because what is imported into our country is not regularly and randomly tested.
I'm DONE w/ dog food, as recurrent "post-approval" testing is not done until dogs die. I now cook ALL of our dog food.
I simply don't have any belief that our govt or the FDA is going to benefit those who use e-cigs. It is my belief that private 3rd parties will be far more beneficial in testing and bringing forth results.

 

[NatashaR]

Hmmm, let's tell the FDA to FORGET regulating nicotine, we'll settle for regulating the origin of glycerin used in e-cigs. Let them earn their keep and keep their "face" as long as we get to "vape on."

It's still going to be "buyer beware". The USA created itself a huge liability in sending its manufacturing to China. China does not regulate squat. Look at the counterfeiting industry in China... the Apple stores with Apple logos, selling Apple products with Apple logos, none of which are approved, sold, tested by Apple. This is not "legal" in China, but it is allowed. It's big money. The same thing already happens w/ e-cig HW. Even the legitimate e-cig HW made in China is counterfeited in China and sold overseas. The same thing will happen w/ any "regulated" glycerin & eliqs. So unless the FDA is going to commit to oversight and repeated testing of imported glycerin and liquids, it's not going to make any difference. The contamination will happen and will get shipped. It will simply us cost more, under control of the FDA.
Any FDA regulation is not going to assure quality control. It never has.

Do you propose that the FDA BAN any and all glycerin imports from China and or elsewhere overseas?

 

[NatashaR]

I have not combed this entire thread... but if this article has not already been linked it was posted by Bill Goodsall in this ECF thread... http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...-off-market-fda-plans-apply-e-cigarettes.html

How the FDA Is Keeping New Cigarettes Off the Market - Jacob Grier - The Atlantic

And what is says in a nutshell is... since 2009 the FDA has failed to rule on even ONE of the 3500 applications it as received for new cigarettes. 3500 applications. NONE ruled upon. And we want the FDA to regulate e-cigs....?? Read the article.

*snip* The Tobacco Control Act of 2009 granted the FDA unprecedented authority to regulate cigarettes. Among its new powers is pre-market review: New cigarettes cannot be introduced without an order from the agency. The law provides two routes to approval. One route is for completely new tobacco products and requires a highly detailed review. The other is for products that are "substantially equivalent" to those already on the market.
....... given the agency's failure to rule on a single one of the 3,500 applications it has received so far, the case is weak for expanding its authority to even more dynamic sectors of the market. "

 

[Berylanna]

It's still going to be "buyer beware". The USA created itself a huge liability in sending its manufacturing to China. China does not regulate squat. Look at the counterfeiting industry in China... the Apple stores with Apple logos, selling Apple products with Apple logos, none of which are approved, sold, tested by Apple. This is not "legal" in China, but it is allowed. It's big money. The same thing already happens w/ e-cig HW. Even the legitimate e-cig HW made in China is counterfeited in China and sold overseas. The same thing will happen w/ any "regulated" glycerin & eliqs. So unless the FDA is going to commit to oversight and repeated testing of imported glycerin and liquids, it's not going to make any difference. The contamination will happen and will get shipped. It will simply us cost more, under control of the FDA.
Any FDA regulation is not going to assure quality control. It never has.

Do you propose that the FDA BAN any and all glycerin imports from China and or elsewhere overseas?

Maybe ban it from countries that don't have good Q.A., when you consider that counterfeit glycerin was the ORIGINAL reason for the creation of the FDA, it sounds like glycerin in particular is a big risk -- like milk/protein and melanin.

The only thing worse than giving away all of our manufacturing is giving away all that AND our health. The FDA might be the only agency that could do that without causing the World Bank or whoever to hit us with sanctions. And the Japanese get away with banning things on the basis of health, including bogus bans, all the time.

While they're at it, too bad they can't ban dog food from China.

I don't know the rules they have at the moment -- I really do NOT want them to get more powers, but your dog might be healthier if they had used the ones they have correctly, though I can't see how they would have caught anything THIS time, since whatever it is doesn't show up in ANY tests they've found so far. But certainly they have dropped the ball on other occasions.

And if I had the choice of forbidding them to regulate non-combustible tobacco products above and beyond being able to force recalls for poison-contaminated product, I'd go for that.

If you know someone who can draw cartoons quickly-enough to do simple ones cheaply, let me know and I'll get back to trying to take that power away from the FDA.

Meanwhile, while they still have those powers, I'd rather they found a face-saving way to not ruin us, by regulating something that would be to our benefit (compared to their probably ACTUAL plans anyway.)

 

[Petrodus]

My my my my ...
How did we ever survive so long without regulations ??

 

[brooke2775]

I'm not a well educated person as far as gov't and politics but do agree that there is corruption involved. Given the right motives, I believe we can win this fight. It means combining together with the organizations that are on our side. It means getting creative in fighting back. How about we use our resources and put them to use, like CASAA. Let us come up with some solutions. Surely we are not this powerless to do something. This probably will sound sappy to y'all, but I do believe good triumphs over evil, however it chooses to show itself. Let's talk solutions.

 

[Petrodus]

Members wishing to get in the fight ...
May I suggest joining CASAA (if you haven't already)
CASAA - Link
CASAA forum here on the ECF - Link

 

[zoiDman]

... Let us come up with some solutions. Surely we are not this powerless to do something. This probably will sound sappy to y'all, but I do believe good triumphs over evil, however it chooses to show itself. Let's talk solutions.

I’m not sure what Solutions there are? I’m not even sure what you could get 70% of the members here to agree on.

Perhaps if the Vaping community had had Money, Lawyers and a Willingness to Compromise, some things may have turned out Different. Maybe they wouldn’t have.

But at this point, it seems like the Big Ball has started to roll down the hill. And I don’t know of a good way to try and Stop It short of Money and Lawyers.

And that is No Guarantee either.

And BTW – I don’t think that it is Sappy that Good Triumphs over Evil. It just Doesn’t always do it in the Time Frame that we sometimes would like it to.

 

[brooke2775]

No, I believe it will take alot of time. This country wasn't founded overnight. I went through the casaa website, there is a link that will link you to your congressman. I sent him an email. Not sure if that would do any good or not. But I think we just need to be relentless and the more the merrier

 

[Petrodus]

No, I believe it will take alot of time. This country wasn't founded overnight. I went through the casaa website, there is a link that will link you to your congressman. I sent him an email. Not sure if that would do any good or not. But I think we just need to be relentless and the more the merrier

The e-cigarette community is not going to go away
just because "Mommie FDA" disapproves.