26650 Batteries: Why Are There Only Off Brands?

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DaveP

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I remember reading an article in the newspaper years ago that said most people surveyed listed a lawsuit or winning the lottery as their only way to eventually gain a comfortable financial status. IMO, it's a sad state of affairs when training, education, and hard work don't top the list for success.
 
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sonicbomb

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Yeah, yeah... I never tested anything but the Aspire 26650. So I have no idea what the others are like. And no Aspire are not rewraps! PBusardo made a video of Aspire's battery factory. Showed them making 18650 from start to finish. Now if you want to claim PBusardo faked it all, well let's hear what you got.

You may have watched the video you are referring to, but you clearly were not listening very well.
It's not Aspire's factory, they own an 'interest' in it. So in effect Aspire (re)wrap their batteries at source directly off the other companies production line. This is made very clear during the video.

Aspire are a re-wrapper, not a manufacturer. Fact.
The quality and bloated performance claims on their products are a matter of record. Fact.

We went through all of this last time. Why are you so in love with Aspire, it's a bit odd.



Yes Mooch rating are far better than nothing.
What are you talking about?? o_O
 

BillW50

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You may have watched the video you are referring to, but you clearly were not listening very well.
It's not Aspire's factory, they own an 'interest' in it. So in effect Aspire (re)wrap their batteries at source directly off the other companies production line. This is made very clear during the video.
Whoa! Tony (owner of Aspire) didn't trust any battery manufacture to manufacture batteries for vaping. Yeah I get that, who does? And then Tony buys a controlling interest in Yongdeli Battery Company so he can assure his Aspire cells are safe enough for vaping. So what am I not listening to? Did you even watch that video? They even drilled a hole right through a cell and no fire or anything.

Aspire are a re-wrapper, not a manufacturer. Fact.
The quality and bloated performance claims on their products are a matter of record. Fact.
Why would Tony of Aspire pay for any interest into Yongdeli factory if he couldn't control how the cells are made? That makes no sense to me whatsoever. Are you saying that Tony is just stupid?

We went through all of this last time. Why are you so in love with Aspire, it's a bit odd.
You are not listening whatsoever! I said it before and I guess I'd say it again. I have no love for Aspire cells. But I do appreciate what Tony has done. We need more companies making vaping cells and making them safer. Maybe Tony could improve things, but that is what competition does. We need more Tonys in the world. Since Samsung, LG, Sony, Panasonic/Sanyo are too coward to help us out.

What are you talking about?? o_O
What do you think I am talking about? Mooch tests for example, Efest cells and he might have tested a Panasonic rewrap. While someone goes to a vape shop and buys the same Efest, but it is a Sony rewrap. That is a totally different cell. So what Mooch said doesn't even apply. But some vapers don't even know this.

Also Mooch will push his testing a lot harder than I would. I would never vape cells as hot as he does. I draw the line at 50°C tops (outside battery temperature). Thus also why my amp rating is often 1/3 lower than Mooch's. But I never had a single cell explode either. And I like to keep it that way. :)
 
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Robin Becker

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Hi BillW50,

1. Mooch test the batteries into their limit - it does not mean that he reccomends to use them to this limt! For Example...Mooch would discharge the batteries continously. No Mod works that way! When you use a Mod you discharge the battery for few seconds...so your point is not really clear to me!

2. Aspire belongs to some companies (like iJoy), that systematically exeggerate on their batteries. Tony cares only about one thing: Tony! That is most probably the reason he would not buy expensive batteries from Samsung SDI, LG Chem etc., but will buy cheap chinese low-cost and low-quality batteries and will sell them like they were Samsung SDI, LG Chem etc. (at least that is what appears on the shrink)

3. We don´t need more Tonys, we need more Mooches :D, that will stand there and guard and protect us from more Tonys, that just want to earn more money and care less about what can hapen to us with their crap batteries.

Sad, but is the truth!
 

BillW50

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Hi BillW50,

1. Mooch test the batteries into their limit - it does not mean that he reccomends to use them to this limt! For Example...Mooch would discharge the batteries continously. No Mod works that way! When you use a Mod you discharge the battery for few seconds...so your point is not really clear to me!
Sometimes mods fail and continues to fire. It is nice to test for continuous since it is unlikely, but can happen. Last thing you want is a time bomb.

2. Aspire belongs to some companies (like iJoy), that systematically exeggerate on their batteries. Tony cares only about one thing: Tony! That is most probably the reason he would not buy expensive batteries from Samsung SDI, LG Chem etc., but will buy cheap chinese low-cost and low-quality batteries and will sell them like they were Samsung SDI, LG Chem etc. (at least that is what appears on the shrink)
I tested the Aspire 26650 and I rate it as a 20A continuous cell. Aspire rated it as a 20A continuous cell. Mooch rates it as a 30A continuous cell. Go ahead and use them at 30A if you want, but I am using mine at no higher than 20A.

3. We don´t need more Tonys, we need more Mooches :D, that will stand there and guard and protect us from more Tonys, that just want to earn more money and care less about what can hapen to us with their crap batteries.

Sad, but is the truth!
More Mooches will bring us real vaping batteries? I don't think so. As companies like Samsung, LG, Sony, Panasonic/Sanyo could careless, sadly enough. Now if more Mooches start manufacturing cells for vaping, count me in. But you are just replacing Tonys with Mooches. :)
 
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DaveP

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@BillW50 ,Mooch shows us the graphs from his testing and we use them to make a decision on what to buy. He's a trusted tech guy where cells are used, not only on ECF, but a number of sites where people use lithium cells.

I'd like to see some of your test graphs for comparison. That's not a negative comment toward you, I just like looking at real world test results. If you are a cell tester your results are welcome.
 
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BillW50

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@BillW50 ,Mooch shows us the graphs from his testing and we use them to make a decision on what to buy. He's a trusted tech guy where battery cells are used, not only on ECF, but a number of sites where people use lithium cells.
Yes I know.

I'd like to see some of your test graphs for comparison. That's not a negative comment toward you, I just like looking at real world test results. If you are a cell tester your results are welcome.
I posted a few graphs here mainly on the Aspire 26650. And I have no interest of being involved in testing cells for everybody. I've lived that life twice already in my careers and I don't want one bit of it. Hopefully Mooch loves that life and I am all for it if he is okay with it. I have zero interest of being famous or anything, I just want to be a nobody and that is all. I don't want companies to send me their products to test or for review and get paid anything for it. Enough said.
 

BillW50

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Baditude

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What do you disagree with Baditude?
Since Samsung, LG, Sony, Panasonic/Sanyo are too coward to help us out.
It's not that they are too cowardly to help vapers out, they don't want vapers to use their batteries period. Their products are designed specifically for protected battery pack use exclusively for the auto industry and power tool industry. Those four companies make 75% of the batteries in the world. There is absolutely no financial incentive for them make a "special battery" for vapers because those two industries keep them extremely busy and the vaping market is just too small for it to be cost effective for them. So from both a liability and financial perspective, it wouldn't be worth their interest.

The Chinese manufacturers, however, do have some incentive to "market" to vapers, having only 25% of the market share. Unfortunately, many of the Chinese manufacturers and marketers inflate their specification ratings. So often consumers are not getting the performance or safety they expect because of deceptive marketing.

Just because their marketing and advertising is aimed to vapers does not mean their batteries are any better performing, safer, or better suited for vaping than a Samsung, Sony, or Lg. Many of the smaller China companies have lower standards of quality.

Many literally do a "bait & switch" tactic like the manufacturer for the Vapcell Gold did to Vapcell. The factory and rewrapper agreed on specific specs, but the factory changed the specs on Vapcell without telling Vapcell. They weren't aware until Mooch tested a second batch and made them aware of the switch. The factory said don't worry about it, the specs don't really matter. That's the attitude many China companies have.

I learn this "insider" type info from Mooch. He has many professional contacts in the industry, and often is sent sample batches from various suppliers to test for specification accuracy and detect counterfeits.

Mooch tests for example, Efest cells and he might have tested a Panasonic rewrap. While someone goes to a vape shop and buys the same Efest, but it is a Sony rewrap. That is a totally different cell. So what Mooch said doesn't even apply. But some vapers don't even know this.
Mooch ALWAYS says that any of the Chinese rewrappers can change the cell used at any point in time. That's the reason that he often re-tests batteries to see if the performance has changed. That's important for consumers to know so it does apply.

"Any battery that is not a genuine Samsung, Sony, LG, Panasonic, or Sanyo can change at any time! This is one of the hazards of using “rewrapped” or batteries from other manufacturers so carefully research any battery you are considering using before purchasing." --Mooch quote​

I often wonder why people bother buying Chinese batteries at all given all the shenanigans Chinese companies try to pull off.

Also Mooch will push his testing a lot harder than I would. I would never vape cells as hot as he does. I draw the line at 50°C tops (outside battery temperature). Thus also why my amp rating is often 1/3 lower than Mooch's.

I never tested any of those just the Aspire 26650 cell.
That's great that your test standards are different from Mooch's, for you. Mooch is not testing batteries for just your benefit, but for the entire vaping community. A lot of people like to push their batteries hard, and I think Mooch realizes this.

And you base your findings on just one battery model by Aspire. :rolleyes: Taken as a whole, Aspire's entire lineup speaks rather poorly for themselves.
 
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Mooch

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    Yeah and LG and Samsung say don't use for electronic cigarettes too. Apparently they won't take any responsibility if one of their cells blows up in your face. Not cool at all. :(

    All of our cells were never designed for use outside a fully protected battery pack. It is sheer insanity to use these cells for vaping with external battery mods! An astoundingly bad idea.

    Having both terminals at the top with only a couple of thin plastic layers protecting you from disaster is not going to work, as clearly evident from all the issues vapers have with damaged wraps and the accidents we see in videos.

    These large companies want nothing to do with such reckless use of cells clearly designed, marketed, and sold for use only in battery packs.
     

    BillW50

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    It's not that they are too cowardly to help vapers out, they don't want vapers to use their batteries period. Theire products are designed specifically for the auto industry and power tool industry. There is absolutely no incentive for them make a "special battery" for vapers because those two industries keep them extremely busy an the vaping market is just to small for it to be cost effective. Those four companies make 75% of the batteries in the world.
    So what? I say the hell with them. We vote with our wallet and if they don't like it tough! Let China, America, Germany, France, Canada, or whomever to fill in the void. And if they are too stupid to understand that vaping is a growing industry and those that get in now are going to make huge amounts of money. Well they screwed up then.

    The Chinese manufacturers, however, do have some incentive to "market" to vapers, having only 25% of the market. Unfortunately, many of the Chinese manufacturers and marketers inflate their specification ratings. So often consumers are not getting the performance or safety they expect
    Yeah well one problem there is no standards that I know of for lithium cells. UL, ANSI, or nobody else has any standards. We need standards and that will just disappear.

    Just because the marketing and advertising is aimed to vapers does not mean their batteries are any better performing or safer or better suited for vaping than a Samsung, Sony, or Lg. Many of the smaller China companies have lower standards of quality. Many literally do a "bait & switch" tactic like the manufacturer for the Vapcell Gold did to Vapcell. The factory and rewrapper agreed on specific specs, but the factory changed the specs on Vapcell without telling Vapcell. They weren't aware until Mooch tested a second batch and made them aware. The factory said don't worry about it, the specs don't really matter. That's the attitude many China companies have.
    While China does gets blamed on this bate and switch a lot. But it isn't just China. Every company in every country I ever heard of has to clause of specifications can change without notice thing.

    Mooch ALWAYS says that any of the Chinese rewrappers can change the cell used at any point in time. That's the reason that he often re-tests batteries to see if the performance has changed. That's important for consumers to know so it does apply.
    He can't test every single cell that is sold everywhere. He can at best only test a small fraction of them. And don't get me started about clones.

    Mooch is not testing batteries for just you but for the entire vaping community. A lot of people like to push their batteries hard, and I think Mooch realizes this.

    And you base your findings on just one battery by Aspire and use different standards than Mooch does.
    I use my standards because since I have been using lithium cells since the late 90's, I've found they are really pretty safe and for the past 20 years they have done me well (knock on wood).
     

    Mooch

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    Yeah so? I never tested any of those just the Aspire 26650 cell. Aspire and I rate it at 20A continuous and Mooch rates it at 30A. So I guess it works both ways.

    This cell is being retested and will not be rated higher than Aspire rates it. This will help to minimize the confusion that has caused, as evident in these posts.

    If it runs cool at its rating, that will be noted.
     

    Mooch

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    Yeah well one problem there is no standards that I know of for lithium cells. UL, ANSI, or nobody else has any standards. We need standards and that will just disappear.

    Not sure what you mean by standard (safety? labeling? packaging?) but cells from reputable manufacturers are safety tested to UL1642, IEC/EN62133, UN38.3, and/or a GB standard I have forgotten the number for.
     

    BillW50

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    All of our cells were never designed for use outside a fully protected battery pack. It is sheer insanity to use these cells for vaping with external battery mods! An astoundingly bad idea.

    Having both terminals at the top with only a couple of thin plastic layers protecting you from disaster is not going to work, as clearly evident from all the issues vapers have with damaged wraps and the accidents we see in videos.

    These large companies want nothing to do with such reckless use of cells clearly designed, marketed, and sold for use only in battery packs.
    I call BS. Samsung makes cells used in their own cellphones for Pete's sake. Or are you talking just about 18650 and other cylinder shaped cells? Yes Samsung, LG, Sony, and Panasonic/Sanyo does this for those. But this doesn't include everybody else.

    Tony owns Aspire, for example. Tony bought a controlling interest at Yongdeli to manufacture cells for vaping and not for battery packs. I don't question why he didn't trust Samsung, LG, Sony, Panasonic/Sanyo or anybody else to manufacturing cells for vaping and just rewrap them. To be frank, I don't completely trust them either. As they don't care about making cells safe for vaping anyway.

    In PBusardo's video, Aspire crushed a small sample of a run. I didn't understand what I believe what Kathy said, but it they crush them close to halfway flat. Did she say 10,000K grams of pressure? That is like a truck driving over it and it didn't catch fire or anything. Then in another test they drill a hole right through the cell and no fire or anything. And they test them under load with an air temp of 85°C. Pretty darn impressive if you ask me. Makes me feel they are headed in the right direction. :)
     

    Baditude

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    So what? I say the hell with them. We vote with our wallet and if they don't like it tough! Let China, America, Germany, France, Canada, or whomever to fill in the void. And if they are too stupid to understand that vaping is a growing industry and those that get in now are going to make huge amounts of money. Well they screwed up then.
    I think that you overestimate the number of vapers and underestimate the cost involved in making a new battery factory specifically for a "vape" battery. It would not be cost effective.
     

    BillW50

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    Not sure what you mean by standard (safety? labeling? packaging?) but cells from reputable manufacturers are safety tested to UL1642, IEC/EN62133, UN38.3, and/or a GB standard I have forgotten the number for.
    Good to know. But what are they? If they rate at continuous, at what temperature? Sure you might find a 18650 out there somewhere that can do 40A continuous. But at what temp? 200°C perhaps? :shock:

    And I believe vapers need a reliable pulse rating too. Aspire uses 10s/on 5s/off that sounds reasonable to me. Others use something else. That doesn't help much at all. Since they almost never mention cell temperature (outside of the cell jacket).
     
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