FDA 27.07.2014 - Glantz to FDA - FDA should prohibit of use of flavors

[bigdancehawk]

^agreed...

The FDA can ban flavored ejuice all day if they want. The best part of human engenuity is that we find work-a-rounds. If something as ......ed as this were to go into affect, juice companies would simply sell their flavors on the side, seperate, unmixed...stoopid waist of taxpayer money buffoon government.

We know how to get around the regs. However, current and future smokers do not. I imagine the majority of us started out with cig-a-likes and, although we found them unsatisfactory, they helped us recognize the potential and led us to research and experiment with more advanced products. IMO, cig-a-likes are first base, and millions of current and future smokers will never get past first base. Instead, if the proposed regulations go into effect, they will return to smoking. That would be a human tragedy on a massive scale.

 

[bigdancehawk]

Heh.. because they have a character limitation in that textarea. As first submitted, it was more than 700 words too long. So I had to go back and streamline it to make it say what I wanted to say, in the least amount of characters I could manage. Finally got it below the limit, in the form shown in my blog post. It still says what I wanted to say, just more succinctly.

It was a great deal more vituperative in its original form. Maybe that's why they instituted the character limit.

Andria

Sarcasm, my Dear, sarcasm. The unredacted version may very well have fried my laptop.

 

[aikanae1]

I doubt we'll ever see the day when the tobacco Control MSA would be enacted by a court, forcing all those who benefited from the tobacco gravy train -- thru fraud, lies, gross malpractice, and academic misconduct, at great expense, suffering, and death by smokers worldwide -- to pay back their ill-gotten fortunes with interest, penalties, and injuries added on top. That should not stop us from seeking justice, though.

I'm not so sure. Just looking at Sweden's experience with snus and the resulting 45% reduction in smoking related illness as soon as 5 years out - if I had known there was a lesser harm alternative 10 years earlier and my reaction was "where do I send my medical bills to so the FDA (and those associated) will cover them?" They flat out LIED. I think people are angry enough at tobacco companies that when an agency in the position of public trust is found to be doing the same, their anger doubles and triples.

I'm not joking when I say that I hope there is a civil class action against those hiding the truth about harm reduction. I don't think it needs to be on the same base as the MSA. The first cases weren't and the case in Florida wasn't (I don't think FL was part of the MSA). That does open the field for a civil class action lawsuit.

 

[Anjaffm]

I finally submitted my own today, and I also made it a blog post, just because it's so extremely militant, I thought others might enjoy it -- and certainly, anyone who wants to use any of the language in it, feel free! Let's smack those idiots around, even if it's only verbally! it's here...

Andria

EXCELLENT!
And yes, this is a standing ovation. You have told it precisely like it is. Great!

 

[Anjaffm]

I'm not joking when I say that I hope there is a civil class action against those hiding the truth about harm reduction. I don't think it needs to be on the same base as the MSA. The first cases weren't and the case in Florida wasn't (I don't think FL was part of the MSA). That does open the field for a civil class action lawsuit.

Actually, I agree.
And there is no "well, you could have just quit" "defense" either.
If people can sue a tobacco company because their husband smoked and died - there is nothing to stop people suing those liars and cheats in TC for deliberately withholding the truth about a much less harmful alternative.

 

[SolRayz]

We know how to get around the regs. However, current and future smokers do not. I imagine the majority of us started out with cig-a-likes and, although we found them unsatisfactory, they helped us recognize the potential and led us to research and experiment with more advanced products. IMO, cig-a-likes are first base, and millions of current and future smokers will never get past first base. Instead, if the proposed regulations go into effect, they will return to smoking. That would be a human tragedy on a massive scale.

Personally, if some choose to continue smoking cigs at the cost of thier own health, well, thats their problem. There's simply too much info, devices, and options out there now to hide your head in the sand and be easily conned by that ecig wannabe crap they sell at gas stations. People really need to take personal responsiblity and research for themselves, otherwise continue smoking cigs. Maybe I'm being selfish, but I personally think that we are at a golden period for vaping right now and the further it becomes part of the mainstream, the more the government will take interest and the nanny state takes effect. I've been vaping for over two years now and seeing this industry mature so fast, and in some circles, vaping becoming predominant over traditional cigs, particularly here in SoFl. I really don't want this golden period to end.

 

[AndriaD]

Personally, if some choose to continue smoking cigs at the cost of thier own health, well, thats their problem. There's simply too much info, devices, and options out there now to hide your head in the sand and be easily conned by that ecig wannabe crap they sell at gas stations. People really need to take personal responsiblity and research for themselves, otherwise continue smoking cigs. Maybe I'm being selfish, but I personally think that we are at a golden period for vaping right now and the further it becomes part of the mainstream, the more the government will take interest and the nanny state takes effect. I've been vaping for over two years now and seeing this industry mature so fast, and in some circles, vaping becoming predominant over traditional cigs, particularly here in SoFl. I really don't want this golden period to end.

Yeah I'd have to say I agree; all of *US* managed to do some research about it and not be spoon-fed, there's no reason others can't do the same.

I read a lot of books, on many different topics, some fiction, some non-. And I constantly hear things like "How did you know that?" Umm.. I read books, I have the internet, I know how to search on google. What's that person's excuse? Libraries are free, last I checked -- if they weren't, I'd read a lot less, that's for sure!!! But the point is that if you want to know something, it's usually a simple matter, especially nowadays with the internet, to find out. Laziness is no excuse, and e-cigs are starting to be pretty much everywhere -- my parents really knew nothing about all this until I started with them, but when we were at the folks' this weekend, my stepfather told me that the last time he was out, sitting in traffic at a redlight, he looked over and saw a woman "smoking one of those things" as he put it (they don't know the "proper" terminology!) and was really tickled about it, seeing how popular they're getting all over the place.

If someone wants to learn about e-cigs, it's very easy -- go to google and type "e-cigarette" -- that's precisely how I found THIS place!!

Andria

 

[bigdancehawk]

Personally, if some choose to continue smoking cigs at the cost of thier own health, well, thats their problem. There's simply too much info, devices, and options out there now to hide your head in the sand and be easily conned by that ecig wannabe crap they sell at gas stations. People really need to take personal responsiblity and research for themselves, otherwise continue smoking cigs. Maybe I'm being selfish, but I personally think that we are at a golden period for vaping right now and the further it becomes part of the mainstream, the more the government will take interest and the nanny state takes effect. I've been vaping for over two years now and seeing this industry mature so fast, and in some circles, vaping becoming predominant over traditional cigs, particularly here in SoFl. I really don't want this golden period to end.

Perhaps I have failed to make my point with sufficient clarity. I'm worried about what will happen when and if the proposed regulations go into effect and the "golden period," as you described it, comes to an abrupt end. At that point, the legal products will most likely all be cig-a-likes. There are insufficient economic incentives for an e-liquid company to try getting 100 liquid flavors, each with 4 different nicotine concentrations and varying proportions of PG and VG, pre-approved by the FDA. It's not going to happen, IMO. So, people will have to source the ingredients themselves and mix their own juice. Or buy black market juice. Some of us mix our own juice, but most do not. If the regulations go through, how are current and future smokers who find cig-a-likes unsatisfactory (or who just want to casually try out more effective products) going to source quality nicotine and then mix their own juice with any sort of precision or quality control? I imagine they would have to be highly knowledgeable and highly motivated. The B&M vape shops will all be gone. There will no longer be any "unintentional quitters." To just say, "Well, if they can't or won't figure it all out then let 'em all die," is not acceptable to me.

 

[AndriaD]

Perhaps I have failed to make my point with sufficient clarity. I'm worried about what will happen when and if the proposed regulations go into effect and the "golden period," as you described it, comes to an abrupt end. At that point, the legal products will most likely all be cig-a-likes. There are insufficient economic incentives for an e-liquid company to try getting 100 liquid flavors, each with 4 different nicotine concentrations and varying proportions of PG and VG, pre-approved by the FDA. It's not going to happen, IMO. So, people will have to source the ingredients themselves and mix their own juice. Or buy black market juice. Some of us mix our own juice, but most do not. If the regulations go through, how are current and future smokers who find cig-a-likes unsatisfactory (or who just want to casually try out more effective products) going to source quality nicotine and then mix their own juice with any sort of precision or quality control? I imagine they would have to be highly knowledgeable and highly motivated. The B&M vape shops will all be gone. There will no longer be any "unintentional quitters." To just say, "Well, if they can't or won't figure it all out then let 'em all die," is not acceptable to me.

As far as I know (which isn't very far, I admit!), even if the absolute worst does happen, the ECF won't be going anywhere. So newbies can come here, just as they do now. What things they need to learn may well be different, but with this forum to guide them, they'll find a way -- if they really want to. Those who don't really want to, well they're kinda like the people now who are given e-cig starter kits as gifts -- they may try it, but find eleven-dozen reasons why "it just won't work for me," despite the fact that it's already working for millions. You can't force someone to be interested in e-cigs... but if they ARE interested, they'll google "e-cigarette", find the ECF, and somehow manage. Yes, the FDstupidA can make it a lot harder, but there's no way they can utterly destroy something that's grown this large. I just don't see that happening. For a while, there was all this about how congress was going to do this or that to the internet -- and it hasn't happened, for exactly the same reason -- it's too large, and the US doesn't own it. I think the FDA will realize that eventually, about e-cigs.

Andria

 

[DC2]

I think I have seen some comments from Smokey Joe about the impact these regulations could have on this forum.

I seem to remember something about restrictions on advertising of tobacco products.
I don't recall the details.

But I believe there are lots of advertisements that show for people who are not supporting members.
And those could possibly have to be removed, as well as whatever income is provided by those advertisements.

I don't really recall if Smokey Joe said anything about providing vendors their own subforums for a fee.

 

[SolRayz]

Perhaps I have failed to make my point with sufficient clarity. I'm worried about what will happen when and if the proposed regulations go into effect and the "golden period," as you described it, comes to an abrupt end. At that point, the legal products will most likely all be cig-a-likes.

If the FDA were to do this, how exactly would they stop the flow of products, mods, atty's, juice, etc, built overseas. In my estimation, that would be virtually impossible.

 

[dragonpuff]

No matter how much DIY people can do, how much information is available, and how many products are accessible on the black market, we need to keep in mind that the simple illegality of the products would be enough to turn people away, especially new vapers. No one wants to worry about getting in trouble over something like that, and for a lot of people the idea that they might get in trouble (even if there's no way they would) will lead them to focus solely on using allowed products, like tobacco cigarettes

 

[SolRayz]

All I know is that if the governement bans ecigs, and keeps the {MODERATED} real ones, we must seriously question the motives.

 

[AndriaD]

All I know is that if the governement bans ecigs, and keeps the {MODERATED} real ones, we must seriously question the motives.

No need to question; it's money, pure and simple. "The love of money is the root of all evil," and those guys in DC would sell their mothers to make more money.

Andria

 

[SeniorBoy]

Unfortunately GlantzANTZ has supporters in elected office. It's new and fresh. My post from another thread:

AND speaking of Ds and politics I'm not sure if the following has been posted but it's NEW and fresh as of 8/4/2014. They want this done today (sooner rather than later) so to speak and not down the road. Bolding and txt size by yours truly:

"In a letter to FDA Commissioner Margaret Hamburg, the Members wrote: “While FDA’s proposed rule sets the stage for future regulations, strong regulatory actions on marketing to children, e-cigarette flavors, and online sales cannot wait. FDA has an existing mechanism to protect children now—without waiting years to implement new regulations to accomplish these goals.”

Source with the letter of 8/4/2014: US Senate Committee on Health, Education, Labor, & Pensions: Newsroom - Press Releases

 

[Rickajho]

Ummm... at last count how many flavors of Nicorette gum are being marketed? Orange... Cinnamon... Original...

 

[Kent C]

Ummm... at last count how many flavors of Nicorette gum are being marketed? Orange... Cinnamon... Original...

Mint...Obama's favorite.

 

[bigdancehawk]

If the FDA were to do this, how exactly would they stop the flow of products, mods, atty's, juice, etc, built overseas. In my estimation, that would be virtually impossible.

Oh, they can't stop it altogether. They can just make it much more difficult and expensive to obtain and we will have no way of knowing what's in it. There will be more customs agents and so forth, hired at taxpayer expense. Or perhaps a whole new E-Cigarette Liquid and Paraphernalia Control and Enforcement Agency ("ELPACEA") paid for with your tax dollars. I can hardly wait.

EDIT: Wait a sec, as it's all about The Little Chiiiillldreeen, it should be FELPACEA, the wise and powerful Family E-cigarette Liquid and Parapernalia Control and Enforcement Agency. I suggest you read Brave New World. It's like, you know, uh, a book?

FURTHER EDIT: I apologize for being inappropriately condescending. I get that way when sufficiently provoked to anger. But my anger isn't directed at you. We're all good.

 

[SolRayz]

Oh, they can't stop it altogether. They can just make it much more difficult and expensive to obtain and we will have no way of knowing what's in it. There will be more customs agents and so forth, hired at taxpayer expense. Or perhaps a whole new E-Cigarette Liquid and Paraphernalia Control and Enforcement Agency ("ELPACEA") paid for with your tax dollars. I can hardly wait.

EDIT: Wait a sec, as it's all about The Little Chiiiillldreeen, it should be FELPACEA, the wise and powerful Family E-cigarette Liquid and Parapernalia Control and Enforcement Agency. I suggest you read Brave New World. It's like, you know, uh, a book?

FURTHER EDIT: I apologize for being inappropriately condescending. I get that way when sufficiently provoked to anger. But my anger isn't directed at you. We're all good.

No need to apologize, I get it. So tired of govt intrusion in general, but now this really hits me personally. All these threads are doing are riling up my anxiety so much, I'm thinking of stocking up on a couple liters of nic concentrate and other supplies.

 

[AndriaD]

No need to apologize, I get it. So tired of govt intrusion in general, but now this really hits me personally. All these threads are doing are riling up my anxiety so much, I'm thinking of stocking up on a couple liters of nic concentrate and other supplies.

I know just what you mean. Sometimes these political threads make me so angry, all the stupidity, dirty tricks, and just plain LIES from the ANTZ, I have to just leave and go find a hardware thread to get my geek-jones on. I've been a computer geek for many, many years, but this is even better; this kind of geeking could very well save my life, just by keeping me off cigarettes, and playing with hardware is a lot more fun than cigarettes EVER were.

Andria