A bit annoyed: vaping indoors all of a sudden upset ONE coworker

[AndriaD]

If I want to vape where smoking is not allowed, I just do it by way of stealth.
I've been doing that for over half a decade in stores, restaurants, and movie theaters.

No one has EVER noticed, because I'm that good at it.
And it's really not all that hard if you're a tootie puffer like I am.



Blowing out clouds is just asking for ....-sore folks to get all ....-hurt about it.
Doesn't make it right, just makes it what it is at this point.


Key word in the quote above is intelligent.
If your friends or family aren't, you can't make them so.

I don't have the time to be bothered with stupidity.
It's extremely taxing.

All that and a bag of chips.

When entering my face, or my space, get ready for what comes with it.
And that means having your ducks in a row, because mine are.

Here is a quote I hear all the time that I do NOT believe in whatsoever...
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.

You get my 10,000 likes award for today!

If no one ever bothers to argue with or correct stupid people, then they'll just stay that way, which benefits no one. While it's true that some stupid people can't be fixed, that may just be a case of having met no one obstinate enough to out-argue them. And it's quite fun to leave stupid people with ideas to which they can make no reply except a puzzled look.

Andria

 

[bigdancehawk]

And it will be inconsiderate people like you we can thank when vaping is banned.

So let me be the first to say thank you. lolz

What do you care? You're already acting as if there is a ban.

 

[DC2]

If no one ever bothers to argue with or correct stupid people, then they'll just stay that way, which benefits no one.

I see people on this forum all day long misspelling words...
Or using a phrase/expression/saying incorrectly...

I want so badly to correct them, for their own benefit going forward.
But for some reason people don't like to be corrected.

Which is just stupid.

If I say or do something wrong, I want to be corrected.
How could you not want that?

 

[HotRodCarts]

What do you care? You're already acting as if there is a ban.

Actually I don't care. It just amazes me how rude and inconsiderate some people are and give polite vapors a bad name.
Have a nice day.

 

[bigdancehawk]

Rant:
Well this thread took a turn for the worse. Myself, being vaping for about 4 or so years already, don't want to see anyone vaping in a place where smoking isn't allowed without explicit allowance to do so. It makes you guys, who vape wherever you go look like .......s, which in turn makes everyone who vapes look like an ........ This is just my own opinion though, you have yours, I have mine. I still don't get why people feel the need to vape wherever they want without any regard for other people. Smoking is more harmful than vaping, that's true. But vaping in a place where smoking isn't allowed is harmful to the whole vaping industry. Sure, it might feel like a little thing, but you explicitly make the people seeing you vaping inside a Walmart for example, get the feeling that every vaper is like that.

A small question for all vapers, who think that it's allowed to vape wherever you please and those who vape where smoking is allowed: What do you think is more harmful for vapers all over the world: News articles saying 3 people were blowing clouds inside a store where smoking isn't allowed or a news article saying vapers are good people and vape where smoking is allowed?

Also, what gives you the permission to vape inside a grocery store for example if smoking inside isn't allowed. All I'm asking is that did common sense get lost somewhere along the road from switching from smoking to vaping?

Edit: Also, I'm proud to be a vaper, but I'm more ashamed of people who think they can do whatever they want just because they are vapers and they should be allowed to do whatever they want.
/Rant

Just my 2 cents.

That's why I'm inviting everyone who thinks they are allowed to vape wherever they want to try and do that here in Finland without asking for explicit permission, as you _will_ get kicked out of the establishment you are vaping in

"Kicked out"? Gives new meaning to "Finlandization." So, if I vaped indoors in Finland, I'd be Finlandized.

 

[Woofer]

Actually I don't care. It just amazes me how rude and inconsiderate some people are and give polite vapors a bad name.
Have a nice day.

If one is shallow enough to judge me by another's actions than "Actually I don't care" what they think of me.

 

[Jman8]

Surely there is bias against it, due to these regulations taking place all over the globe? Have I denied that? No. Let's carry on then.

Perhaps not denied, but downplayed. I'm saying the bias against comes first and then the policies to regulate. To help those policies go through legislation, during the time of it's passing, a media hit piece will resurface or go through, as in "how can we not pass this legislation." You are saying / have said, that yes there's bias, but it is only worsened by vapers who vape in places where you are not permitted to smoke. Therefore vapers who do this are causing harsher regulations.

I actually think both points could use, or deserve to have more elaboration. But here in current debate it does seem like there are two camps of vapers:
1 - harsh bias against vaping / tobacco exists and this is driving most to all regulations
2 - bias for and against vaping exists, those against probably have some regulations they'd like to have go through, but face no choice politically when disrespectful vapers act inappropriately in public and thus are the cause of harsher regulations

How is that rhetorical? Isn't it obnoxious to cloud up a place or vape somewhere without permission and then whine when the place gets "No Vaping" signs?

It's rhetorical because you are framing your point around "cloud up a place." In the room (of my house) that I'm vaping in right now and routinely vape in, it doesn't get clouded up. Like ever. I vape here more than I would in most public places. Thus, I would say it is virtually impossible for me, and many other vapers to cloud up a place. I have seen clouded up places due to vaping, but of the 900 times I've been in public places since vaping, with attitude of vaping everywhere, I have seen maybe (at very most) 4 places that were 'clouded up.' So, your framing strikes me as highly unlikely scenario for when person vapes indoors in public. And is arguably worse by any establishment that a) chooses to restrict vaping to one (small room) location or b) has poor ventilation. Given that we've seen graph on p.12 of this thread showing comparison between exhaled vapor and room air, and they are about equal, then arguably (or rather likely) a poorly ventilated space would be 'very bad' for people in that location even without anyone vaping. The vaping part just makes it more visible, even while in (scientific) reality, it is on par with what is normally found in room air.

But I'll say a hospital is a great indoor place to vape. I think I'll always believe this. Cause I'm guessing most vapers wouldn't even dare to vape there. So, really probably never going to have situation where 30 of us are simultaneously vaping in there and thus have chance to cloud of a specific spot UNLESS the hospital were idiotic enough to restrict all vaping to one location. Even if that were the case, I wouldn't vape in that designated location. If that were a smoking area, I would. With vaping, I wouldn't. Vaping in a hospital routinely strikes me as very similar to vaping outdoors in locations where people might be around you, but not necessarily crowded into same space. I honestly cannot think of any instance in any hospital I've vaped in where it was even plausibly a conceivable issue for anyone else there. Or would be akin to going through same mental exercise with regards to vaping outdoors.

If a place were to get "no vaping" signs, it wouldn't have much impact on how I vape in that location. I'm unique in this thread in this way. Most would obey that sign, I think (but not all). Yet, I would see the sign as coming about not because people like me disobeyed the policy or people were blatantly disrespectful before the policy, but instead because of the anti-tobacco bias that is very strong in world culture exercising it's authority in that city, state, country.

I'm stating that in a visual aspect in my eyes, and hundreds of non-vapers, it's extremely similar to tobacco smoke. And I have said that multiple times in my posts in this thread already.

That's understandable at first glance, but it is ignorant. It is really no different than standing outside on cold today, seeing your breath and then someone assuming you must be smoking. You say no, they say I just saw what you exhaled. It looked like smoke to me, therefore it is. Please don't argue, I know what I saw. Stop doing that this instance! Especially in public.

 

[Jman8]

I see a lot for "forum scientists" that seem 100% positive that second hand vape is 100% safe.
Does anyone have some REAL evidence of this? And if so can you please post the source I'd like to read it.

Seeing that you've been given evidence of the scientific reality, I'm just curious if you believe normal room air is 100% safe?

 

[HotRodCarts]

Seeing that you've been given evidence of the scientific reality, I'm just curious if you believe normal room air is 100% safe?

Nothing is 100% safe.

 

[AndriaD]

I see people on this forum all day long misspelling words...
Or using a phrase/expression/saying incorrectly...

I want so badly to correct them, for their own benefit going forward.
But for some reason people don't like to be corrected.

Which is just stupid.

If I say or do something wrong, I want to be corrected.
How could you not want that?

I guess it depends a lot on how it's done -- if someone says oh BTW, that word is spelled "___" -- or if they say something more like, hey, idiot, you spelled that wrong! But I've been slightly guilty of the latter behavior, in the matter of the giant walls of text without paragraphs, and particularly, when there is ZERO punctuation -- punctuation is to set off phrases and clauses, to make meaning clear, and without proper punctuation, meaning is quite difficult to figure out -- but acting like someone is an idiot (even if you really think they are!) doesn't really help, because as you say, people won't take it well at all.

So I mostly keep it to myself. I already probably aggravate a lot of people with my strongly-felt and strongly-ranted opinions; I'll accept that, if someone is aggravated with me because of something I feel is really important; to me, it's just not worth alienating people because they don't grasp punctuation.

Andria

 

[Jman8]

So I assume (maybe wrongly so) that people start vaping to quit smoking. I also assume that when these people smoked they didn't do it at work, school, store, Walmart cereal aisle, etc. sooo, why do people all of a sudden think they can vape any where they damn well please? What changed in these people? Obviously when these people smoked they got their fix when they could following by the normal rules and bylaws yet somehow when they start vaping they need to do it constantly. I don't get it.

Vaping is new and since it consists of people inhaling something into their lungs and then exhaling something, people automatically equate it to smoking and they assume that smoking rules should apply to vapers. I never vape where you can't smoke and amazingly it works for me and I don't feel the need to impose myself on people that have reservations on a bunch of vapour coming out of someone that may or may not be harmless.

I using vaping as tool to not smoke and I admit I enjoy vaping. I certainly don't "chuck clouds" in a pathetic attempt to look cool.

Anyhoo, carry on.

People inhaling something into their lungs and then exhaling is not new. In fact, it is older than civilization. Let's be clear on this fact.

I'm one that (proudly) dual uses. I also recall being able to smoke in a whole bunch of places (i.e. hospitals, cafeterias, many stores, at work - at your desk) and now realize it is no longer permissible.

You asked what's changed? The short answer is that ANTZ won the propaganda battle against SHS and is now overplaying their hand on SHV which could, or already has, greatly undermined their victory against SHS. Cause now many vapers, myself included, have gone back and done the research on SHS to find out it is packed with lies/deception. I used to think (in the late 1990's) that SHS was conceivably harmful to the general population and was able to back this up by my experiences being ex-smoker (was cold turkey for around 8 years) in which I'd be in smoked filled place and later that evening or the next day feel out of sorts. I then extrapolated that to idea that it is plausibly having long term effect on me, and is probably really good that no one be exposed to that.

All that was pre social networking days. Would've been impossible for ANTZ to get away with what they did from circa 1950 thru 1990 if social media was around. Because it wasn't, they won! Woohoo for them. Until vaping came along and they used EXACT SAME tactics to try and convince people of 'dangers' regarding SHV. That's overplaying the hand. That could swing things in direction of harsher regulations against public vaping, but I doubt this time around it'll take 50 years to figure out they've been lying. I reckon it'll take 5 years or less and when people learn that exhaled human breath is on par with exhaled eLiquid vapor, it won't be too easy to stick to the deceptive propaganda. I imagine then it'll just be some vain appeal to human decency or nonsense like that.

Me as dual user, if I could get away with smoking indoors in public places and feel very confident in doing so, I would. Knowing the lies around SHS would make it easy for me personally. But legally, I'd have to get over the idea of whether or not I'd be detected. I reckon it would be very easy to catch a smoker smoking indoors in almost all public places. With vaping, my experience is it is between incredibly challenging and impossible. And given what I currently understand about actual harms associated with SHV, then I consider it closer to no-brainer to vape indoors in public rather than to feel shame in doing so. Yesterday I vaped in movie theater (while watching movie) and found internally if I just go with "I belong here," it was much easier than idea of I ought to check all around me to make sure the coast is clear. Today I vaped in a restaurant near the front which at the time was vacant of staff. Still batting 1.000 in my indoor public vaping. Kinda builds confidence in a person who vapes everywhere with respect when you continue to vape everywhere and in all instances you are never once approached because of what someone in that same venue thought they saw you doing. At times, I'm thinking either I'm invisible or vaping indoors, at least in way I do it, is nearly impossible to detect. If I lit a smoke and took 3 puffs in any of these same locations, I'd be surprised if I was batting higher than .011

 

[Jman8]

Nothing is 100% safe.

That's a huge admission on your part given your earlier question.

Do you think there are things "generally regarded as safe" that are also not 100% safe? Perhaps air in a room would be example of this for you. I'm sure there are plenty of examples you could think of.

Me, I think of exhaled eLiquid vapor as in that category. I'm glad current scientific data backs up my thoughts on this.

 

[pluviose]

I'm stating that in a visual aspect in my eyes, and hundreds of non-vapers, it's extremely similar to tobacco smoke.

There you said it.
Along the lines of your reasoning,
- water looks extremely similar to sulphuric acid. Ban water from public spaces.
- steam rooms look extremely similar to domestic fires. Ban steam rooms.
- edible mushrooms look extremely similar to toxic mushrooms. Ban all mushrooms.
- Mr. Smith, the butcher next door looks extremely similar to a serial killer, with his meat cleaver, bone saw and bloody apron. Arrest all butchers.
- Mr. Salman Rushdie looks extremely similar to a militant salafist cleric, let's all and every... oh wait, that's where your line of "logic" bites itself in the ideological ar$e, coming full circle
- etc.

As it was said several times before, you are condoning ignorance. Even worse, you're condoning and pandering to ignorance-based arrogance and entitlement. Condoning and pandering to ignorance only perpetuates and furthers ignorance. It is counter-evolutionary.

Politics isn't black and white as you make it seem like. Sorry to say that.

You telling me that?? Lol.

Politics (and its puppet, the media) is enforcing precisely what i described above. There is a state-enforced push to rewrite the dictionary, to normalise the abnormal, to appease the whiney, entitled and habitually offended self-victimisers.

Police-state? More like common politics.

When police state becomes 'common politics', then you better be very much concerned. Afraid, even.
Having spent the first half of my life (20+ years) in one, i know a police state when i see one. And i see one forming, right in front of my eyes. Only this time not with overt, brute dictatorial force, but by 'slow encroachment' - under the *soft* guise of "compassion", "humanitarian values", "concern", and all that sugary BS. The effect / end result is all the same nonetheless.

I'm getting labeled left and right as "socialist" amongst many other labelings.

No scheiße Sherlock!
Well that was pretty obvious from your first post on this - heck, even by your avatar pic.
I could reel off your opinions on many current issues, off the tip of my tongue, and i'd bet my last dime that i'd be correct to a T. (Not doing that though, this being a vaping forum - and we already hijacked to OP's topic bad enough). Again, no personal offence intended - just an observation based on visual / verbal clues.

If you want to have a more in-depth conversation why I think this way and why I've said the things I've said: Feel free to approach me by PM. And as you've said, this conversation belongs somewhere else than the "New Members" forum.

No, sorry - it's a very public issue which belongs to the public domain.

As i wrote before, you appear very young and impressionable. I'm hoping one day you will develop critical thinking.

 

[pluviose]

I also assume that when these people smoked they didn't do it at work, school, store, Walmart cereal aisle, etc. sooo, why do people all of a sudden think they can vape any where they damn well please?

May i ask how old are you? When I was in school (mid/late 1980s, in secondary school), there were huge ashtrays everywhere FOR THE TEACHERS. (And it wasn't some godforsaken dump, but a prestigious school with 300+ year old history.) Workplaces and most public spaces (incl. transport, etc.) were smoking spaces by default.
Not saying it was good, just that's how things were not so long ago.

 

[Lova]

There you said it.
Along the lines of your reasoning,
- water looks extremely similar to sulphuric acid. Ban water from public spaces.
- steam rooms look extremely similar to domestic fires. Ban steam rooms.
- edible mushrooms look extremely similar to toxic mushrooms. Ban all mushrooms.
- Mr. Smith, the butcher next door looks extremely similar to a serial killer, with his meat cleaver, bone saw and bloody apron. Arrest all butchers.
- Mr. Salman Rushdie looks extremely similar to a militant salafist cleric, let's all and every... oh wait, that's where your line of "logic" bites itself in the ideological ar$e, coming full circle
- etc.

How has this got anything with my argument about people not visually noting the difference between vapor and smoke?

As it was said several times before, you are condoning ignorance. Even worse, you're condoning and pandering to ignorance-based arrogance and entitlement. Condoning and pandering to ignorance only perpetuates and furthers ignorance. It is counter-evolutionary.

How is that? Isn't that ignorant not to note these issues going around everywhere?

You telling me that?? Lol.

Yeah, exactly. Read the example right after that sentence to get some leverage for this argument.

When police state becomes 'common politics', then you better be very much concerned. Afraid, even.
Having spent the first half of my life (20+ years) in one, i know a police state when i see one. And i see one forming, right in front of my eyes. Only this time not with overt, brute dictatorial force, but by 'slow encroachment' - under the *soft* guise of "compassion", "humanitarian values", "concern", and all that sugary BS. The effect / end result is all the same nonetheless.

Again, read the whole text. Politics don't work the same way on this side of the world as they apparently do there. No politician is lobbying the things he is always talking about, and that's crystal clear for most people.

No scheiße Sherlock!
Well that was pretty obvious from your first post on this - heck, even by your avatar pic.
I could reel off your opinions on many current issues, off the tip of my tongue, and i'd bet my last dime that i'd be correct to a T. (Not doing that though, this being a vaping forum - and we already hijacked to OP's topic bad enough). Again, no personal offence intended - just an observation based on visual / verbal clues.

This is getting quite Ad Hominem on your side. Intentionally labeling me BASED ON MY PROFILE PICTURE?

As i wrote before, you appear very young and impressionable. I'm hoping one day you will develop critical thinking.

So, critical thinking is to label a person you don't know personally as a socialist due to the things he is talking about without you knowing any background on the whole issue? Do you even know any politicians by name which are in parliament here in Finland, who are lobbying for the extreme regulations for vaping?

Let's do a reality check:
Regulations taking place in European Union this spring:
No mail orders
Only for 18-year olds
No marketing
Max nic 20mg/ml
Max tank size 2ml
Max bottle size 10ml
Leakproof filling (all current devices illegalized, same for drippers etc.)
6-month wait time with every new device
Heavy testing and raporting
Warning labels and leaflets with all devices and liquids
All regulations are the same for nicotine-free liquids

Also: Politicians in Finland proposing extra regulations:
No flavorings*
Treated as a cigarette*
Import limit: max 10ml bottle*
Shop payment: 500€ a year (~$550-600)*

And you still think my arguments thorough the whole thread aren't justified in any way?

 

[Rossum]

Let's do a reality check:
Regulations taking place in European Union this spring:
No mail orders
Only for 18-year olds
No marketing
Max nic 20mg/ml
Max tank size 2ml
Max bottle size 10ml
Leakproof filling (all current devices illegalized, same for drippers etc.)
6-month wait time with every new device
Heavy testing and raporting
Warning labels and leaflets with all devices and liquids
All regulations are the same for nicotine-free liquids

Also: Politicians in Finland proposing extra regulations:
No flavorings*
Treated as a cigarette*
Import limit: max 10ml bottle*
Shop payment: 500€ a year (~$550-600)*

And you still think my arguments thorough the whole thread aren't justified in any way?

If the FDA does what a lot of us here think they will, you guys in Europe will have it easy with those rules.

But I really see very little correlation between either the EU's TPD or the looming FDA regulations and where people can or should vape.

 

[pluviose]

Politics don't work the same way on this side of the world as they apparently do there.

Where, which side? Last time i looked Finland wasn't its own continent...
(Or, if you're referring to that ex-police-state i mentioned, as it happens that's became one of the few 'free' states in Europe these days...)

Intentionally labeling me BASED ON MY PROFILE PICTURE?

Yup, i profiled you. Not a terribly polite thing to do, nonetheless practical. Sorry 'bout that.
Oh well, you actually did it by yourself.
When i was your age - in the last century - , one with blue (green, pink, purple) hair could've gotten away labeled as an 'eccentric' or 'punk' or 'interesting character'.
Past 2000 though? It's became the uniform of "social progressives" and "radicals", which are just synonyms for "state-ist". (Social stereotypes are not born without a reason, you see.)
Your stance on "permissions" and suchlike only confirmed the initial impression.
Feel free to challenge it though, we have an open mind.

Let's do a reality check:
Regulations taking place in European Union this spring:

I know about the proposed regulations.
I only hope that the EU implodes before they get implemented.

I can't see how your proposed "bending over backward in advance" solution could have any positive outcome on it. One needs to tackle the root cause.

 

[Lova]

Where, which side? Last time i looked Finland wasn't its own continent...
(Or, if you're referring to that ex-police-state i mentioned, as it happens that's became one of the few 'free' states in Europe these days...)

Yup, i profiled you. Not a terribly polite thing to do, nonetheless practical. Sorry 'bout that.
Oh well, you actually did it by yourself.
When i was your age - in the last century - , one with blue (green, pink, purple) hair could've gotten away labeled as an 'eccentric' or 'punk' or 'interesting character'.
Past 2000 though? It's became the uniform of "social progressives" and "radicals", which are just synonyms for "state-ist". (Social stereotypes are not born without a reason, you see.)
Your stance on "permissions" and suchlike only confirmed the initial impression.
Feel free to challenge it though, we have an open mind.





I know about the proposed regulations.
I only hope that the EU implodes before they get implemented.

I can't see how your proposed "bending over backward in advance" solution could have any positive outcome on it. One needs to tackle the root cause.

Well, I don't see how me liking to wear surplus military clothing/"hipster" clothing and dye my hair pastel blue is anywhere near being a socialist, as per your "uniforms". If anything, I'm more of a boheme/hippie guy and I do wish the same, that EU would just cease to exist before these regulations come into play.

I still stand behind my original argument, which actually has got nothing to do with socialism, to be frank: I don't see vaping in a store being helpful for the current situations we all are under.

Surely everyone is entitled to have their own opinion, but attacking a person Ad Hominem for stating their own opinion is kinda weird.

Past 2000, I thought that acceptance took place, as same sex marriages were legalized almost everywhere you look and same sex couples were accepted almost everywhere, along with personalized clothes and such. So my personal preference in hair colour/dye and clothing style I wear makes me suddenly a socialist, when there's hundreds of persons dressing the same way? I don't suppose all those could be socialists also.

If the FDA does what a lot of us here think they will, you guys in Europe will have it easy with those rules.

But I really see very little correlation between either the EU's TPD or the looming FDA regulations and where people can or should vape.

Yeah, might be that way, but as I see it, and purely as an opinion, it would be better just to not vape inside a store for example, as most if not all non-vapers see vapour as smoke. Now, you might argue that there's no correlation between smoke and vapour, but from my personal experience, even if I was still smoking, outside, in a smoking area. Many people would come and talk to me. Now that I'm vaping in the same places, many people just walk right past me, speeding as they go as they see the vapour coming out of my mouth. And I wasn't even blowing clouds and trying to make sure people wouldn't get anywhere near the vapour, but alas, it was no use. Nobody said a thing, but from the actions they took they certainly didn't think that the stuff I was blowing out of my mouth was healthy.

As I see this thing: You might or might not be doing more harm than help for vaping, and if vaping gets banned in your favorite bar for example, you are in no position to cry about it. If someone complained about your vaping in the bar, it will most likely be banned in that specific bar for every vaper possibly coming to the bar.

 

[pluviose]

Fair enough - i take your word on it.

So my personal preference in hair colour/dye and clothing style I wear makes me suddenly a socialist, when there's hundreds of persons dressing the same way?

Unfortunately, that tends to happen when something becomes a mass phenomenon. You either stick with the 'look' and risk being misinterpreted for something you aren't, or abandon it altogether. (As several fashion houses had to find it out at their own expense.) Neither is the perfect solution, but that's how things go...

If someone complained about your vaping in the bar, it will most likely be banned in that specific bar for every vaper possibly coming to the bar.

That is the root of the problem, and that's what needs changing. If the serial complainers can be sure that they irrational complaints will trump rationality and others' rights, they will keep complaining and they will get away with it. That societal attitude needs to be changed. As of now, the inmates are running the asylum.

even if I was still smoking, outside, in a smoking area. Many people would come and talk to me. Now that I'm vaping in the same places, many people just walk right past me, speeding as they go as they see the vapour coming out of my mouth.

The fear of the unknown, topped with misinformed suspicion spread by the (bribed) media. That's why dispelling misinformation / ignorance is important.

 

[skoony]

Actually I don't care. It just amazes me how rude and inconsiderate some people are and give polite vapors a bad name.
Have a nice day.

Define polite vaping. As no form of vaping has been proved to be harmful polite or not you have no case.

Nothing is 100% safe.

yes there are a lot of things 100% safe. Vaping is one of them. Once harm reduction is lowered below the 5% threshold for all intents and purposes it is 100% safe as any harm is not verifiable. there is not
a large enough pool of sick people to determine the actual cause.
Everyone in the world has a risk factor.