FDA A compromise with the FDA

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catilley1092

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It's way to early in the battle to start talking compromise.

Because that's going to mean giving up something that will negatively affect many consumers, cast into stone. Those of us in the US has seen just how much freedoms that we've lost in the post 9/11 era, all for the sake of "national security". Yet none of this has prevented many tragedies that's taken place since.

We need to stand for our rights just as other groups does for their cause, the NRA being one example who sticks together & accepts no compromise.

Cat
 

pamdis

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Please Do Not Tell Me that You Are In Favor of Minors Using e-Cigarettes.

Because that is Exactly the Kind of Comment that the ANTZ Web Crawlers search this Site For. And I can think of Nothing More Damaging than Giving a ANTZ an opportunity to say that we as Vaper's Want Minors to Use E-cigarettes.

And then Linking to your Posts.

:facepalm:

I also dislike minor bans. After all we go through to shout down the anti's when they say it's not safe, the minute we say, 'well, of course, ban to minors', it implies we really don't think it's safe. And I also think that all those smoking minors should have access.
 

KODIAK (TM)

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I wish you all would dispense with this "compromise" nonsense. :) At least in the context you are using that word it in. This whole discussion sounds to me like "Terms of Surrender". And don't assume this "commenting period" is some kind of olive branch that Zeller magnanimously pulled out of his silk shorts either. He's required to do it by law. :)

If you would like to go off half-cocked and beg for 49 lashes instead of the customary FDA 50, well, that's certainly up to you but I would encourage us all to just wait and see what kind of value CASSA provides us for the money we've been giving them. (And of course we are all doing *that*, right? 8-o).

Not directed at anyone in particular folks!
 
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zoiDman

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I also dislike minor bans. After all we go through to shout down the anti's when they say it's not safe, the minute we say, 'well, of course, ban to minors', it implies we really don't think it's safe. And I also think that all those smoking minors should have access.

You, and of course Jman8, are Perfectly Entitled to your Opinions on Minors Using e-Cigarettes.

I just hope you Fully Understand how Incredibly Difficult it makes things for those who are Fight for the Fair Use of Cigarettes for Adults.

And what kind of Backlash it Creates with people who Normally have Mixed Feelings on e-Cigarettes. Or even Many who see e-Cigarettes as Viable Harm Reduction for Adults.
 

AgentAnia

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KODIAK™;13020054 said:
I wish you all would dispense with this "compromise" nonsense. :) At least in the context you are using that word it in. This whole discussion sounds to me like "Terms of Surrender". And don't assume this "commenting period" is some kind of olive branch that Zeller magnanimously pulled out of his silk shorts either. He's required to do it by law. :)

If you would like to go off half-cocked and beg for 49 lashes instead of the customary FDA 50, well, that's certainly up to you but I would encourage us all to just wait and see what kind of value CASAA provides us for the money we've been giving them. (And of course we are all doing *that*, right? 8-o).

Not directed at anyone in particular folks!

I'm with the Bear. We are not in a negotiation with FDA, where compromise is an accepted tactic. This is war.

I submit that anyone who believes that FDA is willing to compromise on its stance against ecigs is sadly delusional.
 

Kent C

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All adults know that kids experiment. (after all, those adults were once kids). Knowing this, if you are a parent, you have to ask yourself, would you rather have your kid experimenting with cigarettes or ecigarettes.

This, btw, is the same logic that a certain faction in politics use, for showing 3rd graders how to put a condom on a cucumber, then having them read "Heather Has Two Mommies", while expelling them if they eat a poptart in the form of a gun, or say a prayer before eating it.

edit: I employed 'poetic license' here - I don't care if Heather has two mommies, although I think that is something kids could learn a bit later in life, and though I'm an agnostic, I don't care if people pray. I care if the prey though ..... :)
 
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catilley1092

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KODIAK™;13020054 said:
I wish you all would dispense with this "compromise" nonsense. :) At least in the context you are using that word it in. This whole discussion sounds to me like "Terms of Surrender". And don't assume this "commenting period" is some kind of olive branch that Zeller magnanimously pulled out of his silk shorts either. He's required to do it by law. :)

If you would like to go off half-cocked and beg for 49 lashes instead of the customary FDA 50, well, that's certainly up to you but I would encourage us all to just wait and see what kind of value CASSA provides us for the money we've been giving them. (And of course we are all doing *that*, right? 8-o).

Not directed at anyone in particular folks!

Tell it like it is, KODIAK!

Compromise & Surrender does have a lot in common, in particular, throwing in the towel.

I refuse to Surrender to the FDA, they are my enemy in more ways than vaping. Because of them, doctors fear going to prison for issuing me proper medicines for my pain that are proven effective. Just because of the actions of a few bad doctors.

The FDA are NOT your friends, take that to the bank!

Cat
 

Stosh

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Additionally, we are not going to win behind our computers or on our phones. We cannot win solely relying on the CASAA or any other organization to do it for us. There will have to be faces for people to see, civil protesting, letters and emails to your politicians, education of the general public, start our own lawsuits, demands for legitimate studies……….but sadly, I don’t see that really happening. Even if there is, it will be a sea of noise; people shouting conflicting opinions, a small group name calling or shouting about conspiracy behind closed doors and the opposition will easily win.

Civil protesting would be a good thing..."March of the 300 for Vaping" bring a couple Legal Vape 4000

{MODERATED}

Regarding legitimate studies, many have been done, completed but not any were included in the 194 references in the FDA's deeming regulations. An oversight...don't think so...:mad:

p.p.s. Why do premium cigars get a pass in all of this?

People in Congress like to smoke them???...:facepalm:
 
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Endor

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Reading through this thread, I keep thinking about what these proposed regulations really are, or at least how I understand them to be.

They are simply deeming that e-cigarettes fall under FDA control as outlined in the FSP&C act, which means that they would be regulated as outlined in that law. The FSP&C law is what controls many aspects of what this means (the 2007 equivalence date for new products, the SE process, underage access, labeling, etc). The FDA would merely follow the mandate they have been given by Congress as outlined in that law, IF THEY ARE SUCCESSFULLY DEEMED.

Because of this, it may make more sense to fight to have e-cigarettes removed from deeming in the first place rather than nit pick individual pieces of what's in the actual text of the regulation (because you really can't -- they are already established in the law!) At this point, it is more of an "all or nothing" approach, really; once they are deemed, Zeller has clearly stated more than once that more, much more heinous, regulations will be forthcoming.
 

Jman8

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Please Do Not Tell Me that You Are In Favor of Minors Using e-Cigarettes.

I do not favor a ban toward minors. Not willing to compromise on this one. Yet, am reasonable/practical enough to accept that such a compromise is preferred by majority. But also wish to be abundantly clear that it drives ALL other regulations.

Make your bed, and sleep in it.
 

Jman8

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It's way to early in the battle to start talking compromise.

Because that's going to mean giving up something that will negatively affect many consumers, cast into stone. Those of us in the US has seen just how much freedoms that we've lost in the post 9/11 era, all for the sake of "national security". Yet none of this has prevented many tragedies that's taken place since.

We need to stand for our rights just as other groups does for their cause, the NRA being one example who sticks together & accepts no compromise.

Cat

I disagree that it is way too early in the battle. ECigs are in their 5th year of battling with federal government. Many vapers, at one time, thought we 'won' when federal government was told this is not a drug delivery device, but is more akin to recreational tobacco product. Then when they came to regulate it under auspices of being a tobacco product we say 'no way is it a tobacco product.' Perhaps we can persuade the government to not think that, but then we can look to state governments who are already legislating that vaping = smoking. We can look to fellow vapers who treat vapor as smoke when it comes to using it anywhere around other people.

If we are not in negotiation period with FDA, and FDA are not friends, then why would anyone who thinks this, respond via comment to the FDA? Even if CASAA suggests as much? What is it you think your enemy will give you and that you can trust?
 
Jan 19, 2014
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I suggest everyone read this post. Give CASAA a chance. Kristin says they are shooting for a CTA w/i a week. It's only been a week since the proposal came out, and comments are open until the beginning of July.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...-releases-e-cigarette-rules.html#post13020979

Everyone here is obviously free to do or think as they like. But I'm going to wait for CASAA to speak before I do anything.
 

zoiDman

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I do not favor a ban toward minors. Not willing to compromise on this one. Yet, am reasonable/practical enough to accept that such a compromise is preferred by majority. But also wish to be abundantly clear that it drives ALL other regulations.

Make your bed, and sleep in it.

I guess the Confusing part was when you said you Would Except that Compromise. But Very Reluctantly.

...

In principle, I get that all us vaping enthusiasts rather not compromise. I find that, in principle, I'd probably compromise on less, i.e. ban to minors. I'll accept that compromise, but very very reluctantly. Most seem like they accept that one easily. No problem. Who cares if it paves the way for ALL other pieces of regulation?

...

Thank you for Clarifying that you are Not Willing to a Compromise on Bans for Minors using e-Cigarettes.

I'm sure that someplace there is a Lot of ANTZ who are Smiling.
 

drummerskey

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I don't want anyone to think I am waving the white flag and rolling over but if you believe that there will be no negotiation; it is all or nothing and the conviction and resolve of what I feel is a small fragmented group of all vapers has the numbers to make a difference; I just think that is an unrealistic thought process. The industry is going to get regulated by someone at some point, there aren't many industries who don't have some type of regulation on them.

You could say, "we won once, we will win again" but look at the numbers of consumers and manufacturers then and now. I will gladly eat my words if later this year, the FDA folds up their tent and says that we win and there will be no regulation. We don't have NRA numbers nor NRA money and I would guess that half or more of all vapers do absolutely nothing.

What happens if the CASAA asks for a compromise? What if I don't agree with it? What if it favors the vendors and not the consumers? I would love to get no regulations and have the FDA go eat a d*&k sandwich but something more than relying on the CASAA needs to be done in order to win. We need greater numbers of both vapers and educated non-vapers.

In all this talk of war, battle, etc........."let's wait it out", "we have time" are things no military leader said ever.
 

Endor

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I don't want anyone to think I am waving the white flag and rolling over but if you believe that there will be no negotiation; it is all or nothing and the conviction and resolve of what I feel is a small fragmented group of all vapers has the numbers to make a difference; I just think that is an unrealistic thought process. The industry is going to get regulated by someone at some point, there aren't many industries who don't have some type of regulation on them.

I did not take your original post that way at all. It was a fair and on-topic question that needed to be asked, because the truth of the matter is, there has been (and continues to be) a lot of political pressure applied to get e-cigarettes regulated. We've all seen this first hand for months: negative media reports about e-cigarettes and e-liquid, God-knows-how-many local regulations popping up all over the country, liberal members of Congress demanding action, groups of state Attorney General's writing letters to the FDA.... on and on.

This was inevitable, and frankly, I think we have an uphill battle with a lot of powerful people in government and the media conspiring against us. Discussing an option with some amount of compromise is not "giving up", it's facing the reality of the situation in my humble opinion.
 

2coils

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Please don't misunderstand and please read my posts in full. I am not debating anyone's views and agree with most of them personally but I am reminded of The Alamo, The movie, "300". The small force rarely wins.

What are WE doing? How are WE going to organize? How are WE going to get all vapers on the same page?

What I am saying is that a small section of all vapers doing little more than letting the CASAA do all the work is going to net us a loss and if that is what we are doing, we better start thinking of a compromise
I think it is too too early to think of a compromise. The proposed rule is still being evaluated by all involved parties. Personally, compromise IMHO is a big mistake. Who is to say, we can't get back to court (for many many reasons) and have this whole thing squashed. E cigarettes are not a tobacco product nor a medicinal product I honestly think it is a consumer product. Who is to say, if the evidence is presented correctly to a judge, he/she will not agree. It is pretty clear, at least in my eyes, that the tobacco control act DOES NOT WORK and DOES NOT FIT. The act was not meant for e-cigs, therefore using a shoe horn to squeeze them in is not going to work. I say, fight until the end. Lets change the path completely.

I would also LOVE to see a consumer "legal fund" of sorts (crowd-funding) for the purposes mentioned above. I will be the first in line to open my check book!
 
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Jan 19, 2014
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Without presuming anything, let me take the liberty of asking you whether you are familiar with these general sources of information:

1) CASAA's point of view, which should be (generally) clear from their initial statement on the FDA Regs (released on the 25th), their subsequent press release, Bill G.'s FDA letter (posted in another thread), and C.V. Phillips' recent blogs? (Older blogs by C.V. and Bill G. are also relevant, and I hope you've looked at some of those. As well as some of those from Mike Siegel, Brad Rodu, D!ck Puddlecote, Clive Bates and many others [listed in no particular order].) It's not as if we're working in some kind of informational vacuum here about where CASAA stands, and very roughly where it will seek to move the discussion. It's about not regulating vaping in exactly the same way as tobacco cigarettes. This is what our opponents seek: vaping should be taxed, it should be regulated and vapers should be regarded as tobacco cigarette smokers by employers, health insurance companies, and of course by society as large. Vaping IS tobacco cigarette smoking, period - full stop: that's what they want the policy to be, and they have shouted it from the rooftops. Therefore the FDA (which is completely in the hands of our opponents), proposes to treat vaping products like tobacco cigarettes. What CASAA believes is that vaping is a different activity, and that harm reduction needs to be considered. How exactly they will ask us to proceed, I don't know. But you seem to think that the general outlines of their position are some kind of mysterious and possibly even nefarious deep dark secret. There's no secret. It's right there out on the web, on their site, C.V.'s site, Bill's site, Clive Bates' blogs, etc. This has also been shouted from the rooftops, if you will.

2)
Similarly, I would hope you are familiar with the history of FDA regulation in the context of smokeless tobacco products, its recent actions (beyond Soterra) regarding vaping, the CDC's recent behavior regarding vaping (since the two cooperate), the stances of other interlinked portions of the US Tobacco Control Government-Industrial Complex (e.g. Glantz and his ilk), the WHO, the EU TPD, and so forth. Because there is essentially no difference at all between any of these organizations and the position that they take. To repeat: they believe that vaping IS tobacco cigarette smoking for every intent and purpose, and hence no distinction can be ever made between the two activities for any reason and in any context. And they have proven over and over again in this context as well as in the smokeless tobacco products context that they don't give a hoot about the real science, and are quite happy to churn out whatever junk science that they need or desire, in order to feed the media and convince the public. For just one example, are you aware that one member of the CTP's advisory board (who happens to be a USC prof.,) recently told a Pasadena CA newspaper that someone vaping in a restaurant would present a health risk to anyone who subsequently sat at that table, due to "third hand" nicotine residue? For starters, I hope you've carefully read the FDA's PDF in full, and dug through Bill G.'s, C.V. Phillips', Mike Siegel's, and Brad Rodu's blogs for more information about how the US Tobacco Control Government-Industrial Complex operates. (You also might take a look at Christopher's Snowden's work - he's the author of "Velvet Glove, Iron Fist.")

3) Finally, I assume you are familiar with the steps in this regulatory process, and the background and history behind the statute under which vaping is about to be regulated (the FSPTCA). Because if you are, the concepts of "dialog" and "negotiation" involved in the term "compromise" should be quite evidently entirely irrelevant. We are not going to be "cutting a deal" with the FDA. The FDA has already made their position quite clear, and we have a limited number of levers within the process to deal with them: namely comments and then subsequent organized action that will be addressed to our elected officials. That's it. It's not as if someone from CASAA is going to meet someone from the FDA in some kind of vapor-filled room, and trade horses. One way or another, vapers have to directly or indirectly convince a sufficient number of elected officials about, and/or hold FDA's feet to the fire on, the issue of harm reduction, and force them to cognize the (non-junk) science. Otherwise, if there's no reduced harm, then the default position that the WHO, the EU TPD, the US Tobacco Control Government-Industrial Complex, the CDC, and of course the FDA have already taken will prevail. To repeat: their goal is to ensure that vaping IS INDISTINGUISHABLE FROM tobacco cigarette smoking, and will be taxed, regulated, and regarded as the same thing for all intents and purposes, no matter what the science says.

Now if you understand all of those things (and I am not saying that you don't), then I would hope that you could do more than speak in general terms about "compromising" and so forth, or in dark language about "white flags" or whatever - let alone suggesting that CASAA (and/or the position that it's broadly likely to take) involves any unknown quantities.

So by all means: lead some kind of "charge" up a proverbial "hill" if you'd like. I won't stop you; indeed I might follow you.

But so far you're not offering any specifics, and you have yet to convince me that you have the kind of background understanding of the process and the current situation that might be required to "lead the charge" or "rally the troops," as it were.

(I confess to having rather lazily not provided links here in this post, but I'm sure others can and will be happy to do so.)


I don't want anyone to think I am waving the white flag and rolling over but if you believe that there will be no negotiation; it is all or nothing and the conviction and resolve of what I feel is a small fragmented group of all vapers has the numbers to make a difference; I just think that is an unrealistic thought process. The industry is going to get regulated by someone at some point, there aren't many industries who don't have some type of regulation on them.

You could say, "we won once, we will win again" but look at the numbers of consumers and manufacturers then and now. I will gladly eat my words if later this year, the FDA folds up their tent and says that we win and there will be no regulation. We don't have NRA numbers nor NRA money and I would guess that half or more of all vapers do absolutely nothing.

What happens if the CASAA asks for a compromise? What if I don't agree with it? What if it favors the vendors and not the consumers? I would love to get no regulations and have the FDA go eat a d*&k sandwich but something more than relying on the CASAA needs to be done in order to win. We need greater numbers of both vapers and educated non-vapers.

In all this talk of war, battle, etc........."let's wait it out", "we have time" are things no military leader said ever.
 
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aikanae1

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Here's the short form: how do you compromise with crazy?
I think Zeller says it about the 17:00 mark, "the FDA is a regulatory agency, not a truth agency"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10AbJunwOEY#t=190

We'd be doing a harmful disservice to many future generations.
As it is, I'm hoping to live long enough to see the FDA taken to court for needless illness and deaths of millions. I don't want to be a party to it. Just my personal opinion.
 
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