FDA A compromise with the FDA

[wv2win]

Please don't misunderstand and please read my posts in full. I am not debating anyone's views and agree with most of them personally but I am reminded of The Alamo, The movie, "300". The small force rarely wins.

What are WE doing? How are WE going to organize? How are WE going to get all vapers on the same page?

What I am saying is that a small section of all vapers doing little more than letting the CASAA do all the work is going to net us a loss and if that is what we are doing, we better start thinking of a compromise

I really don't understand your last sentence. CASAA IS US (those who vape) OR SHOULD BE. If the 20,000 active ECF members all joined CASAA AND donated $5 a month, they would have a much stronger voice and much better funding than they currently have to actually lead us in this fight. Individually, there is no hope at all. We have an organization to rally behind and guide us in our "collective" efforts to fight these regulations through both political action and possibly legal action. But it takes joining that organization and FUNDING it.

 

[drummerskey]

To be clear, what I am saying is that if your "fight" is just donating and letting them do the work while you go about your day; doing nothing more than asking other people to join and pay............it's not going to be enough. Being a member and giving some money from the comfort of your home, behind your computer and expecting what I assume is a small group of people at the CASAA do all the leg work is not "fighting". It's barely involved.

Someone mentioned the NRA and how they win. There are somewhere around 5 million NRA members and they donate way more than $5. On top of that an awful lot of members: go to events, rally, picket, write politicians, put stickers on their car.......

I'm not crapping on the CASAA but 20K members isn't a lot but more to the point of my OP. What are we doing to get all 20K active members to join? Arguing about whether Provaris are worth the money, whether it is okay to vape in public, attacking posters asking if vaping is safe and now........arguing about various points of the FDA proposals.

 

[drummerskey]

Without presuming anything, let me take the liberty of asking you whether you are familiar with these general sources of information:

1) CASAA's point of view,....................................................

Now if you understand all of those things (and I am not saying that you don't), then I would hope that you could do more than speak in general terms about "compromising" and so forth, or in dark language about "white flags" or whatever - let alone suggesting that CASAA (and/or the position that it's broadly likely to take) involves any unknown quantities.

So by all means: lead some kind of "charge" up a proverbial "hill" if you'd like. I won't stop you; indeed I might follow you.

But so far you're not offering any specifics, and you have yet to convince me that you have the kind of background understanding of the process and the current situation that might be required to "lead the charge" or "rally the troops," as it were.

(I confess to having rather lazily not provided links here in this post, but I'm sure others can and will be happy to do so.)

I didn't think your post needed to be completely re-posted.

To be honest; I am "familiar" with the CASAA stance, how FDA regulations work and how negotiations work but you appear to know way more than I do. I can, however; summarize what is likely to happen. FDA gives all vapers the "appearance" that their comments mean anything to them.........they move all of the originally proposed to the next step, ignoring all vapers and then the merits of the regulations go to court. With no public support, no attempt to educate people who don't vape on why vaping is better than smoking and easier to quit tobacco, no media campaign, etc..........the pro-vaping side will pick items they believe they can win and try to fight those things in court.

I am not claiming to be the person to lead the charge, I didn't say that I had any real answers. There are people on this forum that seem to be better equipped with knowledge to do that job. I wasn't trying to convince anyone of anything.......just trying to give everyone a nice dose of truth. I am the person who can stand back and see that only a small group of US take this seriously, all of us can't seem to agree on what exactly we want, a lot of us don't seem to give a ...................and I don't see a lot of threads here with people saying what they are going to do about it; just debate each other on what they would ban, and links of what other people said. We shouldn't fool ourselves that this is enough to win. The FDA doesn't need logic or facts or truth, just public opinion and they have been working on that for the past 6 months or longer with news articles and stupid commercials with people pulling their teeth out for a menthol cigarette.

I was called to the street on this particular post (I am not mad about it at all). In reality, I think it is delusional to think that we are going to win it all if we don't collectively stand up; all 1 million of us. I don't see anyone saying what they are doing outside of joining/donating to the CASAA and the rest of you are just telling me how we cannot compromise...........like what I am trying to say is that I really want to. <----this is not the case

Let me tell you what I have done in the past week and a half. I have been talking to, in person.... anyone who will listen what the FDA is doing and how bad it will be. I have written ALL of my local politicians telling them how destroying this industry and sending a lot of them back to cigarettes cannot be what they want and how I will vote against them if they allow this to happen. I posted on ALL of my social media pages about why regulating vaping is bad and commented about non-vapers and their education. I have made sure that the friends of mine that vape (2 that I converted) know what is going on and asked them to get involved (they are not ECF members) and I have brought it up at 2 of the 3 B&M stores around me. I am currently looking for more to do.

 

[Jman8]

With no public support, no attempt to educate people who don't vape on why vaping is better than smoking and easier to quit tobacco, no media campaign, etc..........the pro-vaping side will pick items they believe they can win and try to fight those things in court.

My thing is that I don't see anything they (being the FDA) can win on. Not in reality.

They can write on paper that it is illegal for minors to buy/use eCigs. They can have most adults (vapers and non-vapers) go along with this. Like 99% are agreeing and 1% (like me, who oppose that). Kids are going to vape. Hence, policy will not visibly work, and thus kids will continue to be the scapegoat to do think more must be done.

And if they can't win on this one where there is a 99-1 split on public opinion, there isn't another item in proposal that one can name that they will win on in reality. Or if they do, it'll be trivial, like the vending machine one. I honestly know of no vaper anywhere that's bought product from a vending machine. May as well tell the vaping community that from now on, you will not be able to buy eCigs on the moon.

Vaping is here to stay. Don't rest on your laurels cause usage bans are popping up. So while vaping is here to stay, public opinion is such that your friends and family could suddenly be people that are saying "I don't want that cancerous / dangerous activity done around me. Take it outside. At least 10 feet from the door. Where you belong." That's what I see us being up against in reality, even while that is 'just getting started.' Fueled by fellow vapers who are very eager to compromise on that. Maybe if we stop doing it indoors that will be the end of that issue. Yeah, think again.

If we were to compromise on everything in FDA proposal, and somehow that compromise is in full effect, there'll still be people on both extremes fighting tooth and nail to get more of what they want. Indefinitely fighting. That to me is a given. If vapers got everything they want right now, there'll be people (more than 50 people) who will be seeking to undermine that forever. Waiting for day when their guy, or gal, gets into office and can then reverse the 'ugly trend that is free reign on vaping.' Just as we may do if FDA should try to go the disaster route. 20 years ago, if you would've said such and such will one day be legal in 2 states in the U.S., I would've said you must not understand politics or realize there is a declared war on this thing you are speaking about. Yet, here we are where tide is turning. And here in information age, tides turn a lot faster (back and forth) than they did just 10 years ago. So, vaping may go really dark, really soon. And 5 year later, be deemed a mistake that we just made 5 years ago, now that people have really reviewed the science and see how utterly foolish black market is for all people, including youth.

 

[drummerskey]

My thing is that I don't see anything they (being the FDA) can win on. Not in reality......................

I think it will be hard to argue the ban of sales to kids. People have said that the market does this already but a click on a website that you are 18 is hardly the equivalent of checking everyone's ID that appear to be 40 years old or younger like cigarettes. I am not stating my thoughts on the sale to minors at all, just that it would be the equivalent of saying, we stopped kids from drinking alcohol by asking them if they were doing it or stopping kids from buying cigarettes in a vending machine by putting a "no sales under 18" sticker on it.

Funny you should mention the vending machine though. I really read this to be a gateway to shut down internet sales. As far as "the other substance", that really took 65 years to get to two states making it legal.

Your government thinks you are an idiot and most of the general public cannot be bothered or taken away from their American Idol or new iPhone release to do anything to better their country. You can see this by looking at 6% approval rates for Congress and 90% of them will be re-elected.

 

[Jman8]

As far as "the other substance", that really took 65 years to get to two states making it legal.

And about 15 years after the information age was in full effect. Had their been an internet back in the 1930's to 1950's, all the superficial controls and manipulations wouldn't have taken 30 years for humanity to wake up to.

Your government thinks you are an idiot and most of the general public cannot be bothered or taken away from their American Idol or new iPhone release to do anything to better their country. You can see this by looking at 6% approval rates for Congress and 90% of them will be re-elected.

Good point(s).

 

[Roger_Lafayette]

I didn't think your post needed to be completely re-posted. [...]

Ditto. I'm not going to tell you what to do with your time. I think it's laudable that you're anxious to act and ready to move forward.

You make some interesting predictions about the future.

I have my own suspicions about what sorts of actions will be more effective at which stages of the process.

But I'm willing to wait a week to see what CASAA advises before I do anything.

 

[Anjaffm]

@drummerskey:

I like your posting
And I like your signature

 

[drummerskey]

And about 15 years after the information age was in full effect. Had their been an internet back in the 1930's to 1950's, all the superficial controls and manipulations wouldn't have taken 30 years for humanity to wake up to.

I agree with this.

IMO, a citizen should be able to do any harm to themselves that they wish. If it doesn't bother anyone, have at it. I don't think the government should be able to pick and choose how I do it. Medication for restless leg syndrome with side effects........ with this ridiculous list of side effects......

http://www.medicinenet.com/ropinirole-oral/page2.htm#SideEffects

FDA/Government says "No Problem"

Vaping - NO WAY!

p.s. Rush Limbaugh weighs in

Libs Hell-Bent on Banning E-Cigarettes - The Rush Limbaugh Show

 

[zoiDman]

BTW - What has been the Reply from the e-Liquid Trade Organizations to the FDA's Announcement?

 

[tj99959]

Personal opinion of course, but I can see these regulations passing no matter what we say/do. The real battle starts when the regulations move to the court system, and it's going to be expensive. The FDA has made up it's mind, and it will be up to judges to tell them otherwise.

We should move to have the entire regulation thrown out rather than trying to modify this part or that.
"Prohibitions" have always caused the highest crime rates this nation has ever seen, hasn't mattered if it was alcohol, drugs, or any other product that was prohibited.

Otherwise I can see the headline now. DEA RAIDS HOME E-LIQUID LAB

 

[Worzel]

So we are following this, pretty much up to the minute, but what about those people who are just now, walking into a gas station, or a vape shop, and buying their first cigalike, or PV, that have absolutely NO CLUE what is going on with the FDA, except for little news snippets here and there? The number of vapers are becoming more and more, but not many of them care for forums, call to actions, or what not. Many of them do not care until it is seen on TV that the regulations have passed, the B&M's have shut their doors, and they can no longer get their vape gear, and it is too late! That is pretty much what we have on our side. I feel it is up to vendors to get the word out to the noobs, and up to us to strike up conversations with vapers in the wild who have no clue what is going on.

I like the idea of the "what's in it for you" approach. No cigarette butts, no smelly smoke, don't worry about me...


Sent from my bird in a moist little package

 

[DC2]

What I am saying is that a small section of all vapers doing little more than letting the CASAA do all the work is going to net us a loss and if that is what we are doing, we better start thinking of a compromise

Rather than thinking of a compromise, I would rather we be organizing a Million Vaper March.

 

[Stosh]

Rather than thinking of a compromise, I would rather we be organizing a Million Vaper March.

Heck, Yes we WILL go....

 

[DC2]

...and I have brought it up at 2 of the 3 B&M stores around me. I am currently looking for more to do.

I don't know if this will be something you would like to use, but here it is...
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B01zUk1aSNToRTVISXMzTTExU2s/edit?usp=sharing

I'm going to seek opinions before doing so...

But I am tentatively planning on handing that out to all local vendors at the very least.
And including with it a whole bunch of copies of CASAA Call to Action when it is released.

 

[zoiDman]

Rather than thinking of a compromise, I would rather we be organizing a Million Vaper March.

I would like to see a Drive to get a Long List of Researchers, Chemists, College Professors, MD's and Health Care Individuals who are in favor of e-Cigarettes.

It would be Easy to do and Cost Very Little. And a 20 or 30 Name List might Carry the same amount of weight (perhaps even More) that a 1,000 People Marching in the Street.

Not say'n that a 1,000 People Marching in the Street is a Bad Idea. Maybe we should consider Both.

"...

What a field day for the heat
A thousand people in the street
Singing songs and carrying signs
Mostly saying, "hooray for our side"

It's time we stop
Hey, what's that sound?
Everybody look - what's going down?

..."
BUFFALO SPRINGFIELD - "For What It's Worth", 1967

 

[DC2]

BTW - What has been the Reply from the e-Liquid Trade Organizations to the FDA's Announcement?

Good question...

 

[zoiDman]

Good question...

I would have thought that They would have been Out In Front and would be Burning Down the Forums/Blogs with Statements.

Seeing that Each of their Members, who paid Big Bucks to become a member, stands to Suffer the Largest Monetary Loss.

 

[drummerskey]

Rather than thinking of a compromise, I would rather we be organizing a Million Vaper March.

I'd be in for that. We could get media involvement. It should be here

Buildings and Facilities

I don't know if this will be something you would like to use, but here it is...
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B01zUk1aSNToRTVISXMzTTExU2s/edit?usp=sharing

I'm going to seek opinions before doing so...

But I am tentatively planning on handing that out to all local vendors at the very least.
And including with it a whole bunch of copies of CASAA Call to Action when it is released.

Looks very useful

I would like to see a Drive to get a Long List of Researchers, Chemists, College Professors, MD's and Health Care Individuals who are in favor of e-Cigarettes.

It would be Easy to do and Cost Very Little. And a 20 or 30 Name List might Carry the same amount of weight (perhaps even More) that a 1,000 People Marching in the Street.

Not say'n that a 1,000 People Marching in the Street is a Bad Idea. Maybe we should consider Both.

The list of professionals in favor would be good too.

Now, we are cooking with Sterno

 

[Vaslovik]

If you think you can compromise with the FDA you are a fool. They are a fascist and criminal organization bent on making your life serve the corporations and not you.

Wise up.