A message to all Canadian E-Juice retailer - A newbie observation

[albertbert]

What information exactly? The descriptions, or the reviews which are not really reviews?

I'm not against "professional" looking sites. I just don't like the talk about bringing people up to par, and stuff about standardizing. Everyone is using the same generic volusion sites anyway. I don't understand how that would make anyone feel like a site is professional. You pay your monthly hosting fee, grab one of the generic templates that looks like every other vendor on the internet. Fill in your little descriptions, and put the images you steal from google. Literally anyone could do it, even a 3rd grade tech ed student. Personally, i prefer sites that don't use these generic templates.

Yes, of course converting smokers is a good thing. Surely, many sites have that newbie friendly look, and fill that need.

If you like sites like that, that's fine. When I first saw this thread, i really couldn't care less about it. The jugheads bashing bothered me, but whatever. Besides that i really didn't have a opinion on any of this. I could care less if someone won't order from this site or that, for any reasons talked about in this thread. The thread itself doesn't bother me, maybe some vendors will see it and make improvements. It's our power as consumers, to influence vendors by choosing how we shop, and letting them know what we think about them.

Using a template, and having a nice looking site isn't going to help legitimize e cigarettes, and like i said before, i seriously doubt its going to help against HC. I certainly don't think it is something to be enforced, by a false, self appointed authority figure.

 

[Oriana871]

Just want to chime in here, not going to get into the nitty gritty of this discussion though. For the most part I have no complaints of the sites I go to.

I feel it's important, however, to state, at least regarding any comments I previously made, that I was not bashing Jugheads in any way. For me, descriptions for some flavours would be helpful. That is not bashing. I have nothing against Jugheads and in fact just placed an order.

I like the underground feel of vaping and the cool peeps in Canada who help make it happen and will invest the time going through ECF for reviews, etc. cause I'm a review junkie anyway, with any product. So newbies have to put the time in and vendors also should take note and see if they can make minor improvements in areas that are lacking.

 

[shockabsorber]

I've been following this thread since yesterday and would like to pipe in now, before the thread goes too far off topic. From what I understand, the OP was trying his best to offer constructive criticism to an industry that is seeking safety approval from a government body. Renthepen was offering some advice, as a noob, as to how Canadian vendors can go about gaining more public approval in regards to safety. Ren being new to vaping has that "outsider view" of things that HC probably has and that is why I think that his opinion has value. In response to his post I hear a lot of veterans trying to defend their beloved vendors (I admit that I had a similar first reaction). A defense is a way of putting up a wall, and that is no way to build a community. I think that noob opinions are of utmost importance here as those of us who have been safely ordering from Canada for a while now have lost that original outsider view.
We all want the same thing, approval form HC. So brainstorming is great for the community, let's just try not to get too defensive lest we lose sight of the goal of the common good.

 

[shockabsorber]

That being said, there is one thing that I think is a great little feature that would make the public feel slightly more at ease, and that is to make it necessary to create an account before you can view a vendors e-juice. Although I know that it is not difficult to do so, creating an account can be a obstacle to minors curious about vaping. I think that people outside the community would feel reassured knowing that we are doing our best to avoid allowing youth to have access to an adult product. Protecting the innocent is always an important safety issue, maybe the most important.

 

[renthepen]

Ren being new to vaping has that "outsider view" of things that HC probably has and that is why I think that his opinion has value. (...) So brainstorming is great for the community, let's just try not to get too defensive lest we lose sight of the goal of the common good.

Thank you shockabsorber. I came back from work and read the posts I missed. I wanted to respond to Albertbert's constructive comments but I think you did better than I would have. The only thing I would add to reply to Albertbert's opinion is that I didn't see any Jugheads bashing either. What I saw was mostly a good word-to-mouth publicity for that perticular vendor actually!

Now let's get back to the subject:

@Newbies: I hope this thread has been as informative for you as it was for me so far. I, for my part, learned that there were good points of having some far-west aspects in the e-juice industry we have right now, such as more "independent" juice to choose from, better prices (when HC will get into this, we can expect the $ to level up, with taxes and stuff), and above all, access to *cough* "nic". On the marketing side, its clear that right now, this market is not "made" for us noobs, each of us have to do our own learning. It's ok. I do think things could be made a little easier for us, and maybe some vendors will slowly adjust to our reality - newcomers being an expanding part of the market (yeah because remember... if we are happy customers on our first order, we will come back for sure... and it's way easier to keep a customer than to catch a new one!).

@Veterans: I know for most of you this debate is a non-debate. I understand that you already have your own e-liquid favorite vendors, that you're happy customers, and that you don't feel the need for things to change that much anymore. On the other hand, I am sure that you guys also want HC regulations just to make the whole thing a legit and secure experience.

Me, I simply had the intention to share my noob observations when I started this thread:

1- To point out that marketing is not the strength of most e-vendors. That is fact. Sorry
2 - To say that even though the market is not regulated by the government, maybe vendors (and I learned that juice-makers from all around the world also) should give a maximum of info about their product... remember that we send their liquids into our lungs. Would you inject my noob-homemade-e-juice in your lungs? I didn't think so either! So that is why we need, as customers, to know a maximum of info about it. It's for our safety.

By the way, about my e-juice safety concerns, I was contacted by the chair of the ETCA and she told me things that really made me feel comfortable buying e-juice, even China-made stuff. Here's a little quote from her e-mail that I found quite interesting:

As for poisons in nic liquid - that's a bit of propaganda. Thousands of tests have been done on eliquids around the world by universities, independant industry bodies, health authorities, individual chemists - there has never been poisons identified in any eliquid that I'm aware of.

Most eliquids outside of Canada are produced by a couple factories: DeKang, Hansen, Janty, etc and their factory has all the certifications - regular testing, health authority approval and more. Labelling is the big challenge that Canada faces as our requirements here are much more detailed than other countries. This is where ECTA will be providing leadership.

I was glad to discover that people are really working hard to make things better already - which is great, and that even the vendors who can't (or maybe don't want to?) be part of the association have our heatlh at heart.

 

[Oriana871]

I would like to give a shout-out to Flavour Crafters for the following extra effort:

"All of our eliquids are bottled in LDPE plastic bottles which we feel is the safest choice to contain our product in. LDPE plastic does not leach any chemicals into the liquids in contains, ensuring that the eliquid you receive is the same high quality product expected."

This is one vendor who is very thorough, in packaging, labels and detailed descriptions of what they avoid putting in their juices that may be unhealthy.

I don't expect this from every Cdn. vendor but I was impressed.

 

[ChellyNelly]

I've been following this thread since yesterday and would like to pipe in now, before the thread goes too far off topic. From what I understand, the OP was trying his best to offer constructive criticism to an industry that is seeking safety approval from a government body. Renthepen was offering some advice, as a noob, as to how Canadian vendors can go about gaining more public approval in regards to safety. Ren being new to vaping has that "outsider view" of things that HC probably has and that is why I think that his opinion has value. In response to his post I hear a lot of veterans trying to defend their beloved vendors (I admit that I had a similar first reaction). A defense is a way of putting up a wall, and that is no way to build a community. I think that noob opinions are of utmost importance here as those of us who have been safely ordering from Canada for a while now have lost that original outsider view.
We all want the same thing, approval form HC. So brainstorming is great for the community, let's just try not to get too defensive lest we lose sight of the goal of the common good.

Very well said, shock. People get all up in arms when suggestions are made. A more clean and professional website with more useful information would help legitimize this industry, that's where blinders are on (and with every other suggestion). If that was the only thing that the industry had, then no, it wouldn't matter. But we have good vendors, we have people wanting this to happen, we have demand for professionalism and more information for health and safety reasons. I do hope that this is one of the many things Canadian vendors take into account because we are getting nowhere fast with the current model.

If it a'int broke don't fix it? It is broke!

 

[freakindahouse]

First of all, welcome to the wonderful world of vaping, Ren!

Just a couple of points, since (I hope most would agree!) I'm fairly well placed to know about some specific areas concerning this vibrant industry:

It is illegal to misappropriate an established brand with a registered trademark. This means that it is illegal to describe any eliquid as 'like' any cigarette flavour. This is unfortunate, for new vapers, wanting to find a flavour to replace their favourite brand of cigarettes, but it is something which ties the hands of responsible vendors. (This very definitely includes pictures.)

That said, I totally agree with you Ren - there must be descriptions of flavours, to give you a 'hint' at least, but as others have pointed out, taste is a very subjective notion!

You mentioned (in passing) that when HC starts regulating there will be extra taxes. We have all our arguments lined up for this already (have had for the past two years! ) and I will personally be fighting to my last breath to prevent sin taxes being applied to a good product! There can be no justification for it whatsoever.

ECTA is in its formative stage at the moment. We needed a Board of 10 to get the thing started, and now my team and I will be working with this team to establish a similar set of regulations to those of ECITA (EU) Ltd (which I also manage and operate). ECITA has made - and continues to make - excellent progress. We are in direct communication with the UK government and the European Commission. We have established the legal compliance standards for the EU industry based on EU law, and this is precisely what we are currently engaged in with ECTA for the Canadian vendors.

As soon as we have the basics hammered out with this small group, we shall be in a position to open it out to the rest of the Canadian industry, so that all the Canadian vendors who are committed to operating safely, professionally, and above all, legally, will be able to do so. Alongside that work, we shall be working directly with Health Canada and other Canadian Enforcement agencies, to ensure that everyone is following the law to protect public health and safety, while keeping these necessary products available to Canadian citizens - you deserve nothing less!

I am sure that the vast majority of Canadian vendors - whether in ECTA or not yet - would be happy to talk you through flavour options, Ren, and I know that many are able to offer samples for you to try things out.

As you have already discovered, ECF is a mine of information on all things vaping (even though, sometimes threads go BANG! ), and I am sure that your enthusiasm will carry you a long way. I'm coming up to three years vaping, and I'm still as excited now as I was at the beginning. It totally changed my life when I was able to leave the tobacco cigarettes behind and start vaping nicotine 'cleanly'. I feel truly privileged to have been able to make my small contribution to the global efforts in support of vaping with the various policy-makers around the world, and will continue to do everything I can to help. I am not alone - there is a vast army of passionate people who are really making a difference so that more smokers can be told the truth.

Quit or die is NOT the only option!

So happy vaping, Ren - and everyone

All the best,

Katherine

 

[Oriana871]

I'm a little bit up-in-arms about a clean, professional website. Next thing vaping becomes very commercialized, dipping it's toes into the corporate world. I go by reviews. Like I said I'm a review junkie for any product, no matter what it's claims are. Good is good, regardless of the website. Granted when I see a website that is atrociously designed (not yet in the vaping world) my guard is up big time.

Anyway that's just a small opinion in the bigger scheme of things. Getting legit I hope doesn't mean the Walmart of vaping .

 

[encee_rz]

1- To point out that marketing is not the strength of most e-vendors. That is fact. Sorry

Just a little information for a new vaper:

Most e-juice vendors don't market that much because it's pretty common for the popular vendors to start getting harassed by Health Canada, and subsequently shut down.

 

[CanuckVapour16]

I for one have been very pleased by the points raised in this thread and thank Ren for putting it out there for people to debate. I also must say that I'm impressed by people's level of passion about this topic and vaping in general. Thanks to everyone for their opinions no matter which side of the argument you sit on and thank you to the suppliers and Katherine for adding some information about the business landscape and the challenges therein.

So what have I learned from this thread?

1. Look around. There are alot of great Cdn vendors out there that are more than willing to answer any questions or concerns you may have.
2. Don't judge a book by it's cover. Just because a website isn't the best it does not mean that the person(s) running it aren't passionate about their product and willing to help
3. There will be growing pains. Not every juice is gonna be right for you and it will likely take some initial trial and error to find the vendor that's right for you
4. There is a light and the end of the vapour trail. Keep at it and I see that most people have found what they're happy with the products they're currently using.

Again thank you all for your passion, insight and mature attitude when dealing with a subject that you may or may not agree with.

 

[Oriana871]

Don't judge a book by it's cover.

exactement

 

[ChellyNelly]

Just a little information for a new vaper:

Most e-juice vendors don't market that much because it's pretty common for the popular vendors to start getting harassed by Health Canada, and subsequently shut down.

You're kidding me He's talking about marketing to the folks visiting the website (by having actual descriptions/flavours used, PG/VG ratios, etc.) - not to put up a freakin' billboard in downtown Toronto or something

 

[freakindahouse]

Health Canada look at websites as part of the marketing, same as me or you, though, so they have to be a bit careful in the current climate.

Hopefully the work we are doing will put an end to the HC nonsense!

Cheers,

Katherine

 

[X P3 Flight Engineer]

Well, renthepen
Last night you asked my opinion (twice) and when I started the reply to your second PM I realized I was simply on a rant because I feel Canadians have been mislead for so long. So I have decided to post my rant here. Be warned it is just my rant, it may be off topic (slightly), and nobody sees things in this light, except me. I will admit that several decades of attempting to quit smoking may have skewed my view of events, somewhat. Hank Williams sang, "I've been down that road before", we all have, here it comes again.

I also will not comment on any organization that claims to be a model of the chamber of commerce and yet styles itself as an invitation only OPEC type organization.

So ren, here is my rant:
To date, you, like 99% of Canadians, doctors included, believe that the Government's position (including Health Canada's) is that they want people to stop smoking and that they have made laws to keep young people from smoking. Once you see that all their steps may have a financial benefit for the government, your thinking may change. A personal example, just to get you thinking: in Moncton five years ago, one of my relatives, 19 years old, was arrested for having 31 cigarettes on him that the tax was not paid on. He was fined $3,100.00 for possession of a pack and a half of cigarettes. Do you feel it was concern for his health that motivated them to take a large portion of this 19 year olds annual income? I don't.

Many things have been done to maintain the status quo of the smoking environment, usually in the name of protecting the children. By stating it this way, if you are against it, you are against the children.

"Kiddie Packs", 5 cigarettes in a pack were sold at one time. Perfect for a social smoker for an evening, perfect (?) for someone who is quitting and doesn't want to buy 20, just a few to get through a rough spot. They were taken from the market because children could easily afford them. As a consequence, now this young smoker has to convince 4 of his friends to start smoking so they can split a pack; (OK, 3 more if they are buying 20. It was already established that each child could afford 5 cigarettes, Right?) Also the guy trying to quit; has to buy 20 at least, might as well smoke all of them. The words “ad nauseam” spring to mind.

Flavored cigarettes were introduced; the kids might like them, so they were banned. Consequence, all cigarettes taste the same (ever notice that, not much difference in flavor, some smell different, some are smoother, but the same taste) and nothing else tastes like them. If we liked chocolate cigarettes we might be able to substitute chocolate for smokes when we quit. If we liked the taste of cigarettes so much, why did we never invent cigarette flavored ice cream?

The myth that smokers cost our health care more than they put in? I don't have the figures but I do know that non-smokers sometimes have breathing problems, so if I never smoked I may develop breathing problems. As a smoker, any breathing problem I have would be classed as smoking related. Not a lot of investigation done there. Any wonder that they can claim exaggerated health care costs? I believe that billions more are recovered from tobacco taxes than the actual expenses for smoking related health care costs. I may be wrong, as I said, it's hard to figure the costs when we don't have any way to accurately determine which cases are caused by smoking.

It is said, “if you want to solve a crime, follow the money".

I believe if there were no smokers in the world tomorrow, governments would collapse, especially given their already fragile financial condition. Many regions depend on the agricultural side of tobacco. Several countries have tobacco as a primary export or significant contributor to employment and industry.

What would be the consequence of no smokers in Canada? Maybe you can think about this for a while. Apparently, according to Health Canada, 120 lives each day would be saved (says so on the cigarette pack). Would health care requirements be less, because less damage was caused by smoking; or more, because people would live longer? Either way, it would happen with billions less dollars to fund it. Of course if their cost estimates are correct, it would be a break even situation. What about the Government? Do they receive any income from all this, or are they only recovering costs? Only recovering expenses, should be no big deal.

How about the vendors and merchants in Canada wanting to sell e-cigs? Do they have any monetary interests or just looking after us vapers? I don't know, but I'd bet in their perfect world they would be Happy to sell only pre-filled cartos at the same price as a pack of cigarettes, each sealed in tax stamped cello and have 19 year-olds fined $3,100.00 for possession of 31 untaxed cartos.

You see they have to cost as much as cigarettes or children could afford them.

They must come only in tobacco (Traditional, it's already named) or Menthol so the kids won't like them. They will see that they taste the same as cigarettes and learn that only cigarettes can provide this flavor, not cherry pie or even butterscotch candies. It may serve as a constant reminder of the cigarette taste to smokers trying to quit, but, hey, it's about the kids.

The PV stopped my cigarette addiction by providing nicotine in a flavor that did not remind me of smoking and only because I could adjust the nicotine dosage to what I required at the moment, and at a reasonable cost. (Although any price seems reasonable to a smoker who wants to quit. A fact that will soon be capitalized on by the Government, I’m sure)

Did I quit smoking thanks to the help of Health Canada?

No! I quit in spite of every obstacle they threw in my way!

 

[renthepen]

This is a rant, maybe, but it does raise some important questions.

I have a quick newbie question related to what X P3 Flight Engineer just posted: How does the market/industry look like in regulated Countries? Do we have some great examples to follow?

 

[freakindahouse]

To my knowledge, there are no officially correctly regulated countries as yet. The UK is the closest example we have to the correct system, and it's still a work in progress. Suffice to say, if we have proper legal standards, properly enforced, it provides safety for consumers. We have that with ECITA members in the EU, but we are still waiting for ratification from both the UK and EU.

I'm sure others will jump in too....

Cheers,

Katherine

 

[Oriana871]

X P3 Flight Engineer I'm not going to quote you since it's such a long post but it is off topic, though highly relevant and I know what you're saying.

A couple of points though:

First off smoking does cost the health care system a lot of money. No doubt about that.

Secondly, even though some vendors may see a money making opportunity, which is completely understandable since they are running a business, I just don't get the feeling at all that it's only dollars and cents that is their motivation. I see people who are as passionate about vaping as their customers.

The fight with HC is going to be a long and hard one, until they get control, and tax money, cause it boils down to those two things really.


In the meantime...

 

[Samyaza]

Slightly off topic, but relevant I believe - Tax revenues from tobacco sales.. "Figures do not include revenues from sales tax or goods and service tax on tobacco products".

I'm sorry, but I am skeptical that all f that (per year) doesn't cover the cost of smokers considering that in 2009 18% of Canadians smoked (couldn't find the number for tobacco users, can't imagine it would add that much to it). So if the number hasn't changed that would mean about 6million smokers with $7 billion coming in revenue?

(it's late so I could be misreading - sorry, please correct me if that's inaccurate! ).

If those numbers are right then no way are Smokers costing Canada a cent. Smoking would cost families and employees more in terms of illnesses and deaths, but the government... not so much ^^

 

[WolfeReign]

Ok, after taking much time away from the site here and doing a ton of homework, i wanted to say something about this whole HC debate......

Sure i believe what i few have said thus far, and it would be most awesome if a vendor who sold equipment actually knew what they were selling........if you were to buy bad or faulty equipment it would be nicer if they did not use your communications as a chance to me Emo about it -- all in the fair shake of making a quick buck, or trying to be all big and bad in pm's......but hey, we live in Canada.....and in the interest of making a quick buck -- better to sell you crap to keep you going back time and again, then to have something oh....i don't know.....that lasts.....making you want to try other products and recommending them...........just saying......

Now onto this whole HC debate:

First off, if we look at the actual law of HC THUS FAR it states and i qoute:
While no electronic smoking product has yet been authorized for sale in Canada, Health Canada has authorized the sale of a number of smoking cessation aids, including nicotine gum, nicotine patches, nicotine inhaler, and nicotine lozenges.

Electronic smoking products, including their nicotine cartridges, must be kept out of the reach of children at all times, given the risk of choking or nicotine poisoning. Nicotine is hazardous to the health and safety of certain segments of the population such as children, youth, pregnant women, nursing mothers, people with heart conditions, and the elderly.

Persons importing, advertising or selling electronic cigarette products in Canada must stop doing so immediately. Health Canada is providing information to interested stakeholders on how to apply for the appropriate market authorizations and establishment licences. as per Health Canada Rules

~Does not the word licences look misspelled to you? As this was a direct copy and paste from our governments web site should it not say licenses? or is that just me?

Now.....notice that it first says no one can sell anything to do with nic? Also has anyone but me noticed that this goes for STORE FRONTS........ in you walk in and pick it up? Happy Vaper provides a pick up service that is physically attached to their warehouse, so they must comply and not sell 0 nic products. Now lets say jug heads or can vape has a warehouse and no local pick up's....they are then indeed ALLOWED to sell nic based juice.

Canada writes their rules much like SOPA and PIPA.....and frankly it gets me madder then a hatter when i see people assuming it is all gloom and doom. Since 2009 just how many Canadian Vendors selling nic based juice or product has been shut down? How many trials have we heard about Vendors going to jail for "breaking the law"?

Really people.....HC comes up with a vague rule such as this and then puts it out there in the form of a web site, then sits back as everyone scurries around policing themselves...."we cannot say this"...."don't post nic here" "we are safe with our juice in clear view on a web site" "we are safe with compiling a list and getting Canadians to PM us...." really? so what would stop (in the past, present or future) Some RCMP sting operation on logging in here?

Now.....what i have to ask and would love to know......these vendors that fear the Government (and the clients that use them)......do these vendors ONLY run their business for e-cigs online as the ONLY means of income? If they are collecting GST then i imagine they needed to properly apply for a business license in their prospective cities....as the Fed's DO require a GST number issued to a REGISTERED business. After going to a few sites i am in awe of how many do not have a TOS (terms of Service) or says anywhere that the business name is trade marked.....copy written etc.

...But they are a home based business you say? Well then they should come out from hiding.....as right here Are the home based business rules so they can say they are a affiliate program and the government would not care.....unless they have very large warehouses with every type of juice/equipment stacked on shelve's just waiting to be used?

....But they need to be a registered business to get the Venture one card from Canada post you say? Oddly i am starting up my own (non e-cigarette related) business for free, applied for the same mail savings card and though i needed to supply a business name, and my address they could mail the card to, i did not need a registered business number....why? as i do NOT have a store front.

....But they have been bullied by HC and RCMP someone might say: Well then why has there not been a class action suit made to the Fed. government at that time to get the powers to be hear out the cases?

Before we come up with the worst case scenarios.....Before we say the government is doing this and forcing that, Since 2009 not one person has stood up and said "hey, lets ban together and start a action suit".....if someone in Nova Scotia can start a law suit for face book, then i am thinking there is no reason why we cannot start a law suit against HC!

So my question is: with some many along the side lines saying they are getting out there and being overly bold with their PV, me thinks now is the time to start something that goes beyond a committee, that see's us once and for all getting the government to pay attention to US, not the other way around...who would be all in, and who would just rather sit down reading the laws (such as SOPA and PIPA), policing themselves and others?

This goes for you vendors too......one way or another we get the government to listen to us, and we fight them in terms THEY understand.........court........