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Vocalek

CASAA Activist
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Yes. I have started saying that. It was in my testimony to the IOM Committee on Scientific Standards for Studies on Reduced Risk tobacco Products. CASAA.org

We were astonished and outraged to learn that, decades before the invention of electronic cigarettes, we could have stopped inflicting smoke-related damage to our bodies without becoming nicotine-abstinent. We were deceived about the relative safety of non-combusted tobacco products. The government and so-called public health organizations misapplied the word “safe” in the messages, “This product is not a safe alternative to smoking” and “There is no safe form of tobacco.” Most folks think they’re saying there is no safer form of tobacco than smoking. These messages encouraged smokers who did not want to give up nicotine to keep inhaling smoke, when they could have switched to products that reduce smoking-related disease risks by up to 99%! Their half-truths have killed millions of smokers and continue to do so today.

We need scientists to tell us the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Dr. Deyton's facial expression told me that he did not like what he was hearing. Deyton is the director of the FDA's Center for Tobacco Products. The committee members are not FDA employees. They work for hospitals and universities.
 
What if we turn the tables a bit here. It's always being drummed into the public's minds that smoking is the cause of 400,000+ deaths every year. Ok, so let's start making our statement that the FDA and the rest of the Alphabet Soup gang are responsible for 400,000+ deaths every year for having made it illegal for tobacco companies to tell the public that smokeless tobacco products are 95-99 percent safer to use than smoking and that they have known this for the past 30 years. By denying the smoking public the truth and giving them the oportunity to switch to a safer product, they are directly responsible for the deaths of millions of smokers over the past 30 years.

Actually, if you want to get dramatic, don't worry about the piddling 400k people who die each year from degenerative diseases believed to be associated with smoking. Instead focus on the 8.6 MILLION Americans who suffer from chronic illnesses like COPD and continue smoking in spite of repeated attempts to quit.

The fact is some people simply can not or will not quit using tobacco. And really, why should they be pressured to quit in a supposedly free society? If you don't like people smoking around you, why not encourage them to find a smoke-free alternative rather than herding them into concentration camps "smoking areas"?
 

kristin

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It'd be great if people would "like" the CASAA Facebook page and forward blog posts from Elaine and I (and other links we post.) Spread the word to your social network and help it go viral - couldn't hurt!

CASAA | Facebook

Elaine's blog: The Truth About Nicotine

A couple stories I recently wrote about the Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act: Wisconsin Vapers Blog - Enjoying a Smoke-Free Life: A Look at the Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act

E-cigarette research: Wisconsin Vapers Blog - Enjoying a Smoke-Free Life: E-cigarette Research: Looking for love in all the wrong places? (This one even got Carl Philip's attention! WooHoo!)

And tobacco prohibitionism: Wisconsin Vapers Blog - Enjoying a Smoke-Free Life: Tobacco Prohibition and a Law of Physics

If mainstream media won't pick it up, we have to get the truth out in other ways!
 

Petrodus

Vaping Master
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Oct 12, 2010
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It'd be great if people would "like" the CASAA Facebook
page and forward blog posts from Elaine and I (and other links we post.) Spread
the word to your social network and help it go viral....

If mainstream media won't pick it up, we have to get the truth out in other ways!

Now that's thinking "Outside the box" ... Excellent suggestion.
Mainstream media doesn't have to pick up the articles for the public to be informed.
Go Viral ... worked in Egypt!
 

Big Sheepherder

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Jan 30, 2011
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We know we quit smoking by using e-cigs. We know we feel better. However, e-cig makers and sellers dare not make therapeutic claims, lest they fall on the wrong side of SOTTERA, INC. v. FOOD & DRUG ADMINISTRATION.-.Argued September 23, 2010. So, for now, the industry is stuck in a paradox. As much as people hate to hear this, the things that will save it from some very rough spots are a strong trade association, lobbyists, targeted campaign contributions and a recognized national/international law firm. Things that will hurt: sellers (or those receiving benefits from sellers) in ECF, on YouTube or elsewhere making health claims (completely discoverable in litigation); overblown or limited industry-only-paid-for health studies; cartoon advertising; adulterated juices; poorly-designed dangerous devices ...
 
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Sassyonemeis

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Jan 15, 2011
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The reason why many, if not all, of the people who use e-cigarettes is to quit smoking tobacco. It is a tobacco cigarette alternative, just as snus is. The fact that there are positive health implications in doing so is to be EXPECTED, everyone and God KNOWS that smoking cigarettes is dangerous to your health, which is why they are labeled so. Nobody but the consumer is making any health claims, and again these are to be expected.

I agree that the devil cartoon may hurt, but it is far from destroying their case, as their case, for all intensive purposes has already been fought. I am not even going to address the idiocy of their claims over flavored juices. And nobody has yet to discover one person harmed by the e-cigarette.
 

MoonRose

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Wonder how all these agencies would like it if everyone who has lost a close relative to a smoking disease were to suddenly start sueing them for wrongful deaths because they withheld the truth about smokeless alternatives being 95-99 percent safer than smoking thus making our loved ones believe that those alternatives were just as dangerous as smoking and therefore they continued to smoke?
 

Big Sheepherder

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I am not optimistic about the future of non-tobacco flavored, nicotine-laden juices (other than menthol) for the same reasons underlying the Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act's ban on clove, cherry, etc. cigarettes. In the absence of strong industry involvement, tactful self-regulation (like getting rid of cartoon advertising), lobbyists, targeted campaign contributions and a good national/international law firm, the Act could very well be amended to ban flavored nic juices for identical reasons underlying the ban on clove, cherry, etc. cigarettes (gateway concerns, etc). Face it, however logical we may be, and however empirically incorrect the gateway concerns are, we are not on the winning emotional side when it comes to most soccer moms and the potential for flavored nic juices to appeal to their kids ... this sort of appeal makes the issue attractive for some politicians. So in the end, it may very well be up to the lawyers attacking normally deferred to congressional findings head on in order to salvage that aspect of the industry in the relatively near future.
 
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MoonRose

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You know what? I'm getting sick and tired of everyone trying to say that flavors or cartoon characters are specifically being used to lure in minors. I'm 50 yrs old and by darn, I enjoy those things myself, flavors and cartoon characters are not always just for the kiddies, we adults enjoy and like them too.
 

Turnkeys

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ECF Veteran
Oct 14, 2010
175
28
SW Washington State
First of all, a big Thank YOU to Kristin. I've been sharing but I hadn't see those links, thanks for gathering them.

On Flavors:

About a week after receiving our Joyce 510's, we were at the local mall and I went up to one of the kiosks. I was curious if I'd made a good choice. When were were talking, the vendor (mistakenly) told us e-liquid sales were banned in WA State. (I didn't know if he meant flavors or all e-liquid.) When I asked why, instead of giving us the reasons legislators were spouting for proposed bans, he gave us the opposite.

He explained that by vaping a flavor that is completely unrelated to tobacco, it further helps the user to distance and disassociate the experience with cigarettes. This would make it even more unlikely to go back to analogs. This is supported by many users here claiming that their ciggs tasted nasty or disgusting when they'd try an analog after vaping.

We have nearly 2 dozen flavors including menthol for myself and "best tobacco" for my girlfriend. The flavors definately win out.

Thought it might be a useful point against the anti-flavor arguements.

Chocolate chip mint. Mmmmmm.:vapor:

Vape on!
 
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Sassyonemeis

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Jan 15, 2011
446
6
Albany NY
Yes, Let's be realistic, up until last year there was flavored cigarettes. They still exist, only now they are labeled cigars. There is also flavored pipe tobacco. Flavored nicotine juice will eventually fall under the same category. Oh and not to mention nicotine gum is also flavored.

I am not optimistic about the future of non-tobacco flavored, nicotine-laden juices (other than menthol) for the same reasons underlying the Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act's ban on clove, cherry, etc. cigarettes. In the absence of strong industry involvement, tactful self-regulation (like getting rid of cartoon advertising), lobbyists, targeted campaign contributions and a good national/international law firm, the Act could very well be amended to ban flavored nic juices for identical reasons underlying the ban on clove, cherry, etc. cigarettes (gateway concerns, etc). Face it, however logical we may be, and however empirically incorrect the gateway concerns are, we are not on the winning emotional side when it comes to most soccer moms and the potential for flavored nic juices to appeal to their kids ... this sort of appeal makes the issue attractive for some politicians. So in the end, it may very well be up to the lawyers attacking normally deferred to congressional findings head on in order to salvage that aspect of the industry in the relatively near future.
 

Vocalek

CASAA Activist
Supporting Member
ECF Veteran
Yes, Let's be realistic, up until last year there was flavored cigarettes. They still exist, only now they are labeled cigars. There is also flavored pipe tobacco. Flavored nicotine juice will eventually fall under the same category. Oh and not to mention nicotine gum is also flavored.

And do you know WHY nicotine gum is flavored? The original flavor was intended to discourage young people from taking up use of the gum and "graduating" to smoking (the old totally unproven 'gateway' theory).

What happened is that the pharmaceutical company didn't sell too much. So it prevailed on the FDA to make it more widely available. Instead of needing a prescription, people could pick it up over-the-counter (OTC) and use as much or use it as long as they wanted.

Sales may have gone up a little, but not as much as expected. So the pharma company did what any company does when faced with marketing problems: It conducted research. Specifically, it asked people who used the gum what they liked and disliked about the product. Guess what! Nearly everyone hated the flavor.

So big pharma went back and convinced the FDA that adding more pleasant flavors to the product would increase the cessation rates of current smokers without significantly increasing the initiation rates among non-smokers.

So that's why today you can get the gum and lozenges in yummy candy and fruit flavors.

So the bottom line is that we need to convince the public that e-cigarettes are an acceptable alternative to smoking that can help smokers-who-can't-quit to reduce their smoking-related health risks. And that we already have flavors and they have not operated to significantly increase the smoking rates of children. But that the flavors do work to help the folks who smoked for decades lose their "taste" for tobacco.

In other words, we need to convince them of the truth.

The tobacco control community (read government agencies world-wide and non-profit "health" organizations) has managed to convince the world of lies for decades. Is it so much harder to promote the truth?

What methods did they use? Can we use those methods too?
 

Vocalek

CASAA Activist
Supporting Member
ECF Veteran
We know we quit smoking by using e-cigs. We know we feel better. However, e-cig makers and sellers dare not make therapeutic claims, lest they fall on the wrong side of SOTTERA, INC. v. FOOD & DRUG ADMINISTRATION.-.Argued September 23, 2010. So, for now, the industry is stuck in a paradox. As much as people hate to hear this, the things that will save it from some very rough spots are a strong trade association, lobbyists, targeted campaign contributions and a recognized national/international law firm. Things that will hurt: sellers (or those receiving benefits from sellers) in ECF, on YouTube or elsewhere making health claims (completely discoverable in litigation); overblown or limited industry-only-paid-for health studies; cartoon advertising; adulterated juices; poorly-designed dangerous devices ...

Did you read Judge Leon's Opinion Document?

FDA references only three claims made in Smoking Everywhere's literature: (l) electronic cigarettes offer "smokers a chance of smoking in a much healthier way," (2) electronic cigarettes are "a great alternative to help ... stop smoking real cigarettes," and (3) "I've been smoking real cigarettes for over 20 years and really wanted to stop ... I've been using it for 3 weeks now and feel great." (ARDET 49,21; FDA Opposition [#14] at 21). The latter two claims are customer testimonials posted on the Smoking Everywhere website. None of these claims, on their face, suggests an objective intent to treat nicotine addiction and withdrawal. At best, these claims demonstrate that Smoking Everywhere markets its electronic cigarettes as an alternative-albeit a healthier alternative-to traditional cigarettes. 15 FDA does not point to any representation by Smoking Everywhere that its product is intended to help wean smokers off of nicotine. Nor does FDA identify any product labeling that includes instructions about how to overcome nicotine addiction using electronic cigarettes. The clear import of Smoking Everywhere's advertising is that it wants consumers to use its electronic cigarettes for the same recreational purposes and with the same frequency as traditional cigarettes. 16 Thus, FDA's finding that the electronic cigarettes marketed by Smoking Everywhere appear to be intended to prevent, mitigate, or treat nicotine addiction is simply not supported by substantial evidence in the administrative record.17

Nor does the fact that plaintiffs advertise their products as a healthier alternative to traditional smoking mean that electronic cigarettes quality as a drug-device combination under the FDCA. Smoking Everywhere advertises, for instance, that its product poses "less health risk." (AR DET 21). Along similar lines, NJOY markets its product as having "all the pleasures of smoking without all the problems." (Leadbeater Decl. [#24-1] at Ex. A). A product qualifies as a "drug" if it is "intended for use in the diagnosis, cure, mitigation, treatment, or prevention of disease." 21 U.S.C. § 321(g)(1)(B). The Court has already concluded based on the information before it that the electronic cigarettes marketed by plaintiffs are not intended for treating the disease of nicotine addiction. To the extent those products are marketed as providing the same experience as traditional cigarettes but without the negative health consequences associated with tar and smoke, they fall within the plain meaning of "modified risk tobacco product," which the Tobacco Act defines as any tobacco product "sold or distributed for use to reduce harm or the risk of tobacco-related disease associated with commercially marketed tobacco products." ld. § 387k(b)(1). To treat as a drug any tobacco product that merely claims to be a healthier alternative would effectively nullifY the provisions relating to modified risk tobacco products, which represent Congress's implicit acknowledgment that those products were outside of FDA's jurisdiction prior to the Tobacco Act. Moreover, it would create the absurd result that certain tobacco products-like low tar cigarettes or electronic cigarettes-would be exposed to the more onerous regulatory burdens for drugs and devices merely because they claim to be healthier alternatives to traditional tobacco products. Because the relevant statutory provisions do not compel this result, it is easy to conclude that Congress did not intend it.

In sum, absent substantial evidence of the manufacturer's objective intent that its electronic cigarettes affect the structure or function of the body in a way distinguishable from "customarily marketed" tobacco products or that its electronic cigarettes have the therapeutic purpose of treating nicotine withdrawal, there is no basis for FDA to treat electronic cigarettes, as they are marketed by the plaintiffs in this case, as a drug-device combination when all they purport to do is offer consumers the same recreational effects as a regular cigarette. Thus, the plaintiffs are substantially likely to succeed on their claim that FDA cannot regulate and thereby exclude their electronic cigarettes from the United States on the basis that those products are an unapproved drug-device combination under the FDCA.18

------------------------------------
15 To the extent that smoking cessation is a therapeutic claim distinct from the treatment of nicotine addiction and withdrawal, the Court is aware that the two customer testimonials referenced above suggest that electronic cigarettes are intended for smoking cessation, ifnot for treating nicotine dependence (as suggested by FDA). Given Smoking Everywhere's express disclaimer that its electronic cigarettes are not intended as a smoking cessation device, (AR DET 1), and given the overwhelming evidence in the record that its electronic cigarettes are intended merely as a recreational alternative to traditional cigarettes (and not necessarily as a therapeutic replacement for traditional cigarettes), the Court concludes that the two testimonials cited by FDA are not alone sufficient to support a finding that the product appears to be intended to help customers
quit smoking.
16 In this respect, Smoking Everywhere's electronic cigarettes are different from other nicotine products regulated by FDA that bear no similarity to traditional tobacco products and make express therapeutic claims. For instance, Nicotine Lollipops claim to help smokers quit "by suppressing the symptoms o/nicotine withdrawal" and by allowing "the individual to control the amount of nicotine taken based on the body's need at the time." (AR NIC 12 (emphasis added». Nicotine Lip Balm represents that it helps "relieve the craving for nicotine" and is "designed to help a person quit." (AR NIC 13 (emphasis added». Similarly, Nicotine Water claims that it is a "[m]ethod of delivering Nicotine to reduce use 0/ tobacco products" and is "more effective" than other products for treating addiction, like nicotine patches or gum. (AR NIC 20 (emphasis in original».
17 With respect to NJOY, FDA provides no factual basis at this point for the Court to conclude that NJOY's electronic cigarettes are intended to treat nicotine addiction or to facilitate smoking cessation. Indeed, NJOY represents that it has always labeled its products with a disclaimer stating that the products are not for smoking cessation. (Leadbeater Decl. [#24-1] at ~ 9). The Court is mindful that the factual record relating to NJOY is sparse. In the course of this litigation, FDA may produce evidence from an administrate record that NJOY's products in fact make therapeutic claims. Absent such evidence, however, FDA may not detain those products on that basis.
18 The Court takes no position on whether there is some other basis for FDA (or any other agency) to exclude electronic cigarettes from entry into the United States.
http://www.casaa.org/files/SE-vs-FDA-Opinion.pdf

The court does not consider testimonials by customers to be marketing a product with health claims. We customers are free to make statements about what the effects on our health has been. It is even permissible for vendors to post those customer testimonials on their web site or use them in advertising materials. The key thing for the vendor to avoid stating is that the produt can used to diagnose, prevent, mitigate, or treat a disease.

It may seem obvious to those of us who no longer purchase tobacco cigarettes that we have stopped smoking, but the vendors cannot say it that way. Here's why. The FDA went outside of the usual dianostic manuals used in medicine such as the ICD-9-CM and the DSM-IV (or are they up to V by now?). In one of their regulations, FDA defined "smoking" as a disease. So, until that regulation is stricken or rewritten, saying that your product helps people to stop or quit "smoking" amounts to a health claim.
 

maclean

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Aug 8, 2010
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Actually, stop and think about this for a second.

What have been the biggest (positive) e-cig stories in recent months?

Simple. Katherine Hegl (sp?) and Johnny Depp using e-cigs.

I mean, come on... you don't get any more mainstream than a national chat show and a johnny depp movie!

The simple truth is that unless famous people step up and take the plunge to use e-cigs, and promote them too, then the general public won't pay much attention. Smoking became more 'cool' because of people like Humphrey Bogart, et al. We need the same kind of 'coolness' factor for e-cigs.

Don't ask how we go about it, because I haven't a clue. But IMO, that's the straightest way to the public's attention.

mac
 

malyden

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Dec 31, 2008
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On Flavors:

About a week after receiving our Joyce 510's, we were at the local mall and I went up to one of the kiosks. I was curious if I'd made a good choice. When were were talking, the vendor

He explained that by vaping a flavor that is completely unrelated to nicotine, it further helps the user to distance and disassociate the experience with cigarettes. This would make it even more unlikely to go back to analogs. This is supported by many users here claiming that their ciggs tasted nasty or disgusting when they'd try an analog after vaping.

We have nearly 2 dozen flavors including menthol for myself and "best tobacco" for my girlfriend. The flavors definately win out.

Thought it might be a useful point against the anti-flavor arguements.

Chocolate chip mint. Mmmmmm.:vapor:

Vape on!

Now that is an interesting argument in favor of added flavors.
 

DC2

Tootie Puffer
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jun 21, 2009
24,161
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Actually, stop and think about this for a second.

What have been the biggest (positive) e-cig stories in recent months?

Simple. Katherine Hegl (sp?) and Johnny Depp using e-cigs.

I mean, come on... you don't get any more mainstream than a national chat show and a johnny depp movie!

The simple truth is that unless famous people step up and take the plunge to use e-cigs, and promote them too, then the general public won't pay much attention. Smoking became more 'cool' because of people like Humphrey Bogart, et al. We need the same kind of 'coolness' factor for e-cigs.

Don't ask how we go about it, because I haven't a clue. But IMO, that's the straightest way to the public's attention.

mac
Couldn't agree more.

There are a small number of celebrities that are vaping now, and the number keeps growing.
But none of them are stepping up to say anything about the potential ban.

I have to wonder which of these possibilities is the reason for that...
1) They are not aware of the potential for a ban
2) None of the "activist" types are using them yet
3) They will keep their mouths shut until a ban is imminent
 

kristin

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Aug 16, 2009
10,448
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CASAA - Wisconsin
casaa.org
Yes, Let's be realistic, up until last year there was flavored cigarettes. They still exist, only now they are labeled cigars. There is also flavored pipe tobacco. Flavored nicotine juice will eventually fall under the same category. Oh and not to mention nicotine gum is also flavored.

Actually, flavored cigarettes have been pretty much banned since the 2006 agreement with RJ Reynolds.

The real hypocrisy (as Elaine points out) is that pharmaceutical products come in Cherry, Orange, Fresh Mint, Cappuccino, Cinnamon Surge and Fruit Chill.

If smokers don't like flavors, why do these come in these flavors? And why name them "Surge" and "Chill" unless they are targeting kids?
 

Demarko

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Simple fact of the matter is, as our taste buds and senses of smell improve, we start tasting things that we've "missed" all these years. It stands to REASON we'd want better flavors - we can actually taste them now. Someone who gets out of prison goes straight for his favorite foods/activities....
 
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