All Flavoring Manufacturers: An Open Discussion

[smelly]

I traded emails with FW who stated they do not support vaping (what is vapor renu?), they said they only had a few flavors that contained ketones (false). Also I asked about the Canadian test where their butterscotch tested positive for diacetyl.

They claimed they had no idea what I was talking about though by the time it was already common knowledge the data had been reported back to them. Is this really the first time you've heard about FW being shady?

Also, I said TFA DOES contain ketones - the difference is they are honest about it - EVEN when it's a PPM so low they don't have to disclose - they do so anyway.

I'm "pretty sure" capv2 still has trace ketone amounts because I also traded emails with them asking about ketone content. They sent me an email back saying they were working on a V2 line. I asked if V2 was ENTIRELY ketone free or if the PPM was being reduced to the point where they can technically advertise as ketone free - they decided to not respond to that question. Then, when I smell the new V2 line I think I faintly pick up on that classic ketone aroma. I also said "I hope I'm wrong about Cap."

Anyways, I vape ketones without a worry anymore but when I did worry, I was super into it.

Andria, are you saying Cap is using butyric acid now? I know TFA is. Also, do we know what butyric acid is and if it's actually any better? I'm just curious about that - it won't make a differnece to me as I have no real problem with ketones anymore - so I don't use the DX or V2 lines - but I do like to hear about new stuff.

 

[Mr.Mann]

I traded emails with FW who stated they do not support vaping (what is vapor renu?), they said they only had a few flavors that contained ketones (false). Also I asked about the Canadian test where their butterscotch tested positive for diacetyl.

They claimed they had no idea what I was talking about though by the time it was already common knowledge the data had been reported back to them. Is this really the first time you've heard about FW being shady?

Also, I said TFA DOES contain ketones - the difference is they are honest about it - EVEN when it's a PPM so low they don't have to disclose - they do so anyway.

I'm "pretty sure" capv2 still has trace ketone amounts because I also traded emails with them asking about ketone content. They sent me an email back saying they were working on a V2 line. I asked if V2 was ENTIRELY ketone free or if the PPM was being reduced to the point where they can technically advertise as ketone free - they decided to not respond to that question. Then, when I smell the new V2 line I think I faintly pick up on that classic ketone aroma. I also said "I hope I'm wrong about Cap."

Anyways, I vape ketones without a worry anymore but when I did worry, I was super into it.

Andria, are you saying Cap is using butyric acid now? I know TFA is. Also, do we know what butyric acid is and if it's actually any better? I'm just curious about that - it won't make a differnece to me as I have no real problem with ketones anymore - so I don't use the DX or V2 lines - but I do like to hear about new stuff.

I don't have any evidence to the contrary, but I will say that a few of their new V2s have tasted, to me, to be only a lessening of diketones as opposed to a complete 86ing (omitting) of diketones. I don't know this for a fact and it doesn't mean I won't use them, but it is just something that I have had my suspicions about. Once again, this is just based on my own tastes (obviously diketones are easily tasted in some flavors). Frankly, I got too many other things to be spending my money on than to spend it to get one of their flavors tested, so as of now I only have their word -- which is worth whatever I feel it is worth.

 

[AndriaD]

I traded emails with FW who stated they do not support vaping (what is vapor renu?), they said they only had a few flavors that contained ketones (false). Also I asked about the Canadian test where their butterscotch tested positive for diacetyl.

They claimed they had no idea what I was talking about though by the time it was already common knowledge the data had been reported back to them. Is this really the first time you've heard about FW being shady?

Also, I said TFA DOES contain ketones - the difference is they are honest about it - EVEN when it's a PPM so low they don't have to disclose - they do so anyway.

I'm "pretty sure" capv2 still has trace ketone amounts because I also traded emails with them asking about ketone content. They sent me an email back saying they were working on a V2 line. I asked if V2 was ENTIRELY ketone free or if the PPM was being reduced to the point where they can technically advertise as ketone free - they decided to not respond to that question. Then, when I smell the new V2 line I think I faintly pick up on that classic ketone aroma. I also said "I hope I'm wrong about Cap."

Anyways, I vape ketones without a worry anymore but when I did worry, I was super into it.

Andria, are you saying Cap is using butyric acid now? I know TFA is. Also, do we know what butyric acid is and if it's actually any better? I'm just curious about that - it won't make a differnece to me as I have no real problem with ketones anymore - so I don't use the DX or V2 lines - but I do like to hear about new stuff.

When I was doing my reading on diketones, I also looked up whatever I could find about butyric acid. Apparently it can cause irritation, especially if encountered in large or concentrated quantities, but I could find zero about it causing the type of lung destruction that diketones can cause -- just that it's an irritant. So is PG, and I've suffered that PG irritation when I vaped too high a percentage of PG for several days in a row (90%). So I guess it might still be a problem for some people, but it doesn't seem to irritate me unduly. What I've seen written about it, in terms of its use as a substitute in flavoring agents, is that it's a "custard note," but NOT an actual diketone. That may be what you're smelling.

The main problem with the damage that diketones can cause is that it's irreversible, but often isn't even known about until discomfort begins -- not being able to breathe properly -- at which point, it's too late to do anything about it, other than a lung transplant. Far better, IMO, to vape something that might irritate, because if it does, you stop using it -- but if vaping something that could cause permanent irreversible damage but presents no symptoms till it's too late... well, you just don't know if it'll get you or not -- you just know that it COULD. By the time you know... there's nothing you can do.

Andria

 

[Mr.Mann]

When I was doing my reading on diketones, I also looked up whatever I could find about butyric acid. Apparently it can cause irritation, especially if encountered in large or concentrated quantities, but I could find zero about it causing the type of lung destruction that diketones can cause -- just that it's an irritant. So is PG, and I've suffered that PG irritation when I vaped too high a percentage of PG for several days in a row (90%). So I guess it might still be a problem for some people, but it doesn't seem to irritate me unduly. What I've seen written about it, in terms of its use as a substitute in flavoring agents, is that it's a "custard note," but NOT an actual diketone. That may be what you're smelling.

The main problem with the damage that diketones can cause is that it's irreversible, but often isn't even known about until discomfort begins -- not being able to breathe properly -- at which point, it's too late to do anything about it, other than a lung transplant. Far better, IMO, to vape something that might irritate, because if it does, you stop using it -- but if vaping something that could cause permanent irreversible damage but presents no symptoms till it's too late... well, you just don't know if it'll get you or not -- you just know that it COULD. By the time you know... there's nothing you can do.

Andria

The thing about butryic acid that I have found is that it is pretty hard to get it confused with acetyl propionyl or DA. To me, butyric acid (in the concentrates I know to have it) tastes broken, funky and only slightly akin to a buttery note. Too much BA in the liquid and it will be almost rancid. Whatever though, the whole thing is irritating, so to speak. I barely use diketone concentrates anymore and the V2s/DXs have been mostly disappointing to my buds, so I have been happy to discover the wonders of other flavors -- though occasionally I'll take a butter hit. But, even still, much of it is guesswork and a crap shoot for the consumer without some test results and accompanying testing protocols.

 

[smelly]

So irritant with a potentially rancid note. I can see that being in CapV2. Do we have confirmation from Cap that this is indeed the deal with the new flavors? No DAA at all, just butyric?

I don't really want to talk about DAAs anymore - don't wont to completely derail the thread. All I'll say as my last words on the subject - the amount that absorbs into to our lungs, after being diluted with air, even if I were to vape straight diacetyl - would still be less than a cigarette. Also, the symptoms associated with the diketones are too start showing themselves very soon after too much exposure, I've been vaping flavors with ketones again for months, up to 25% flavor, between 5 & 10 ml a day (only if I'm drinking do I hit 10 ) and I have absolutely no negative side effects - and so do hundreds of other capers who have been doing this for years by now. Lastly - IMO if it was a major concern big tobacco would have already demonized it, they would have found the key to destroy ecigs, but it isn't, so they didn't. That's my piece and movin' on.

I enjoy Cap V1, V2 tasted too bland to me, I didn't get any irritation which is good, I too dislike PG irritation and the taste.

 

[Racehorse]

I can vape with 1 or 2 drops of flavoring in a 30ml bottle, so I'm no longer worried about flavorings too much. That was what I did when I started to read all the bad stuff.

I can put ONE drop of spearmint into 30ml of VG nic and I'm happy. It's basically unflavored with a slight hint of flavoring.

As a result I am never disappointed anymore with delivery devices....because I'm not flavor-chasing.

I just need my 3mg of nic and something to do with my hands, the ritual thing that I miss when I quit smoking.

this was the "safe" way I came up with in order to continue vaping (for me anyway). I don't require high voltage, or much flavor at all. Keeps my vaping cheap, and simple. I don't need to buy $35 tanks, or anything else.

 

[baseballmom]

I mix with different brands too, mainly Capella and TFA, and am a fan of FW candy cane....that one is so good, and I normally don't like mints or menthol, goes really nice with white chocolate imo( currently have tfa, but should try fw version) and wc/cap hot cocoa too. I want to try some Inawera this year maybe, especially biscuit, and I am waiting on andria' s opinion on the bilberry she recently ordered I read that cap has a good coconut and golden pineapple, so want to try them too. Fa, I want to try fuji apple, Apple pie, and cinnamon Ceylon...I am chasing a certain vendor's apple pie, at least trying to come close, cap, tfa, and fw are not it nor even close, so I will try fa next.

 

[smelly]

I recently got into inawera, I haven't made up my mind on it yet. I don't like mint or menthol either but for the holidays was thinking about FW candy cane, I'll give it a try.

 

[Mr.Mann]

I mix with different brands too, mainly Capella and TFA, and am a fan of FW candy cane....that one is so good, and I normally don't like mints or menthol, goes really nice with white chocolate imo( currently have tfa, but should try fw version) and wc/cap hot cocoa too. I want to try some Inawera this year maybe, especially biscuit, and I am waiting on andria' s opinion on the bilberry she recently ordered I read that cap has a good coconut and golden pineapple, so want to try them too. Fa, I want to try fuji apple, Apple pie, and cinnamon Ceylon...I am chasing a certain vendor's apple pie, at least trying to come close, cap, tfa, and fw are not it nor even close, so I will try fa next.

Yeah, my best results with making an apple pie have involved using various vendors concentrates, but none of which actually involved "apple pie." FW makes a really nice Dutch Apple Pie that's great as a standalone, but it's not quite the type I was going for.

Note: maybe an exception would be FA's Apple Pie, but if I use that I use it as a crust element and only at a very low percentage.

 

[dannyv45]

I realize that it's hit or miss with all of them. I've tried a lot of flavors in the 3yrs. or so that I've been doing DIY. My point was that to my taste buds, some brands can be more hit or miss, like Inawera. (Lots of flavors I couldn't stand). Others are less of a gamble, like Hangsen (consistently good to my taste buds).

I totally agree with you. Hangsen is my go to when it comes to tobacco vapes. My point was that even the best have there duds. Taste is very subjective and what taste good to some may not taste good to others. If my opinion came off as defensive that was not my intention and I completely apologize.

 

[baseballmom]

Yes I do like fw dap, on it's own, actually more so than cap or tfa, it's really good, it's just not the one I need specifically .I am just going to see what fa brings, especially in the crust department..as much variety as I've tried, this one has to be next trial, tfa pie crust not what I'm going for either, or perhaps they are using some more obscure flavor brand which would be another chase...then play around with some apple flavors and bakery cinnamon....I do like fw double apple too, Mr. Mann can fa Fuji be used as a bakery type apple or better as a fresh, crisp solo apple? I got some of the vendor's apple pie for Christmas, so have been smelling to try to pick out notes/clues...I know that sound weird but....

 

[Mr.Mann]

Yes I do like fw dap, on it's own, actually more so than cap or tfa, it's really good, it's just not the one I need specifically .I am just going to see what fa brings, especially in the crust department..as much variety as I've tried, this one has to be next trial, tfa pie crust not what I'm going for either, or perhaps they are using some more obscure flavor brand which would be another chase...then play around with some apple flavors and bakery cinnamon....I do like fw double apple too, Mr. Mann can fa Fuji be used as a bakery type apple or better as a fresh, crisp solo apple? I got some of the vendor's apple pie for Christmas, so have been smelling to try to pick out notes/clues...I know that sound weird but....

Fuji can be, but maybe not by itself. I can augment something like Cap 2 Apples with Fuji Apple but Fuji Apple on its own is, while beautiful, maybe a tad bit too bright for an apple pie. But it's definitely not a definite that Fuji won't work by itself for the apple element, it very well may.

 

[baseballmom]

Fuji can be, but maybe not by itself. I can augment something like Cap 2 Apples with Fuji Apple but Fuji Apple on its own is, while beautiful, maybe a tad bit too bright for an apple pie. But it's definitely not a definite that Fuji won't work by itself for the apple element, it very well may.

Ok thank you for this, I appreciate your insight and opinion...still sounds good though

 

[Train2]

Andria - how IS that DX Bavarian Cream?
I have a big ole bottle of it, but I'm using up the regular Bavarian Cream first...
Did you switch from regular to the Diketone-free in a recipe and get pretty much the same resulting taste?

Thx for this, Mr. Mann. I've been wanting a thread for the promulgation of mixed-brand recipes, 'cause my recipes are all over the place.

I've put a lot of time into searching out diketone-free flavors, since I like a lot of those troublesome flavors, so I agree completely about Capella's excellence; seeing the "v2" on their different flavors is very helpful -- I know that TFA has also paid a lot of attention to this subject, but with some of their flavors, it's not so obvious, you have to look closely to ascertain the lack of diketones -- unless they're now going to standardize that "DX" prefix for their diketone-free flavors. But I wouldn't be able to mix much at all without CAP vanilla custard v2, CAP sweet cream, and TFA DX Bavarian Cream.

I recently got some Inawera Shisha Strawberry, and god, that stuff is amazing; REAL, fresh, sweet strawberries, and the aroma of it, in the aftertaste, especially if you exhale thru your nose, is just amazing too, right on the money authentic flavor. Inawera flavors are expensive, but that one is certainly worth every penny! I just ordered some more today, along wth the Shisha Bilberry; I've been seeking and seeking a really great blueberry flavor, and as great as their strawberry is, I figured I had to try their bilberry. Unfortunately BCV is out of INW Biscuit, or I'd have ordered some of that today too. I also have some of their Cappucino, which is, eh, ok, but maybe a touch bitter. Their Coffee Tobacco tastes just like both, but not sweet at all, so it's not really my thing, I like sweet coffee. I have some of their Virginia Tobacco Absolute, and it's... interesting. I added a drop to the Cappucino for a smoky touch, and it does give some depth; might just need more Sweet Cream and TFA sweetener in the Cappucino, since I do like sweet milky coffee, not the strong bitter kind.

I love FlavorArt's Flash additive; I may have left behind my love of tobacco flavor, but Istill need the throat hit, even if it's strawberries and cream; Flash really helps with that. When I vaped Virginia, I got some "Bitter Wizard," which I think is also FA, and it really helped kill the sweetness.

The only flavors I have that I'm really not too excited about are the FlavorWest flavors. Not really sure why, unless it's just that I prefer not to steep, and they seem to need it; they really don't seem to taste like much of anything. Also, their blueberry is more like blueberry perfume or something.

Andria

 

[Mr.Mann]

Ok thank you for this, I appreciate your insight and opinion...still sounds good though

Have you tried Capella 2 Apples? That is one that I gravitate toward for my apple element specifically for Apple Pie. I've tried many apple concentrates and FA Fuji and Capella 2 Apples are pretty much my go-to(s). Although, I have yet to try Medicine Flower's various apples -- it's just that those concentrates are so expensive it's kinda prohibitive.

 

[AndriaD]

Yeah, my best results with making an apple pie have involved using various vendors concentrates, but none of which actually involved "apple pie." FW makes a really nice Dutch Apple Pie that's great as a standalone, but it's not quite the type I was going for.

Note: maybe an exception would be FA's Apple Pie, but if I use that I use it as a crust element and only at a very low percentage.

So FW's and FA's Apple Pie flavors are the ones to go for? I was considering an apple pie flavoring on my next order, because I truly love the flavors of apple-cinnamon-pastry-vanilla ice cream -- just ordered some of TFA's Vanilla Bean Gelato, which I understand may be the best "vanilla ice cream" type of flavor.

I guess I have a small advantage on the v2 flavors; I never tasted any of the v1 flavors, since I just recently got serious about DIY. I have asthma, so I figured, I should try to do whatever I can to make vaping as safe for my lungs as possible, and I do love those pastry flavors. I don't like mint or menthol in any form or combination; I love York Peppermint Patties, but even with just Koolada in a vape, no mint/menthol, it still reminds me too powerfully of a menthol cigarette, which I absolutely hated.

No shipping notice yet, BBmom, on those flavors I ordered from BCV (which included the Bilberry); I'd imagine they are backlogged to the eyeballs, after their long hiatus, so it may be a few days just to get a shipping notice. I've got one of their "notify me" things on the Biscuit flavor, so I suppose when I get that, I'll also order some apple pie flavoring -- and whose coconut is the best? Inawera has a couple different ones; which is the best, truest, coconut flavor? I'm totally impressed with their Shisha Strawberry, the flavor is absolutely authentic, but I dunno if they have a Shisha version of coconut.

I did get my shipping notice on the mothersmilkwta, which really surprised me; since it's 2-day priority, I expect I may have it tomorrow.

Andria

 

[Mr.Mann]

So FW's and FA's Apple Pie flavors are the ones to go for? I was considering an apple pie flavoring on my next order, because I truly love the flavors of apple-cinnamon-pastry-vanilla ice cream -- just ordered some of TFA's Vanilla Bean Gelato, which I understand may be the best "vanilla ice cream" type of flavor.

I guess I have a small advantage on the v2 flavors; I never tasted any of the v1 flavors, since I just recently got serious about DIY. I have asthma, so I figured, I should try to do whatever I can to make vaping as safe for my lungs as possible, and I do love those pastry flavors. I don't like mint or menthol in any form or combination; I love York Peppermint Patties, but even with just Koolada in a vape, no mint/menthol, it still reminds me too powerfully of a menthol cigarette, which I absolutely hated.

No shipping notice yet, BBmom, on those flavors I ordered from BCV (which included the Bilberry); I'd imagine they are backlogged to the eyeballs, after their long hiatus, so it may be a few days just to get a shipping notice. I've got one of their "notify me" things on the Biscuit flavor, so I suppose when I get that, I'll also order some apple pie flavoring -- and whose coconut is the best? Inawera has a couple different ones; which is the best, truest, coconut flavor? I'm totally impressed with their Shisha Strawberry, the flavor is absolutely authentic, but I dunno if they have a Shisha version of coconut.

I did get my shipping notice on the mothersmilkwta, which really surprised me; since it's 2-day priority, I expect I may have it tomorrow.

Andria

Just an FYI, FW's Dutch Apple Pie has .097% Acetoin. So not a diketone, but possibly devolving into one -- though it's pretty low to start.

 

[AndriaD]

Just an FYI, FW's Dutch Apple Pie has .097% Acetoin. So not a diketone, but possibly devolving into one -- though it's pretty low to start.

Yeah, I just checked BCV; looks like I'll be ordering the FA one. CAP has a v2 of apple pie, but if it's not a true apple pie flavor, I'll give it a miss. I have some FA "Apple" flavoring, and it's pretty good, so if the FA Apple Pie doesn't suit, maybe I can create something similar with that Apple flavor, Biscuit, and some of the other base notes.

Andria

 

[Mr.Mann]

Yeah, I just checked BCV; looks like I'll be ordering the FA one. CAP has a v2 of apple pie, but if it's not a true apple pie flavor, I'll give it a miss. I have some FA "Apple" flavoring, and it's pretty good, so if the FA Apple Pie doesn't suit, maybe I can create something similar with that Apple flavor, Biscuit, and some of the other base notes.

Andria

So FA Apple Pie is like taking their regular apple and adding it to their cookie. Not bad at all, but missing some of the other apple pie elements. It sure as hell works though for the apple pie base, it'll just need complementary elements. INW Biscuit and FA Cookie are quite close, but it really depends on the recipe as to which would work best. FA Cookie is a bit too strong even in low percentages and can color a recipe too much, where biscuit will stay in its place and shape the recipe without jumping out at you. My issue with FA Cookie is that if it's too low, it kinda vanishes, but when you taste it you really taste it.

Gurrrrl, go ahead and get yo' Biscuit already.

 

[Mr.Mann]

I think tonight I am going to try an Apple Pie just with Fuji and Apple Pie from FA as my main components. I will keep it diketone free and get back with my results if they are even worth posting in recipe form.